100 ft. is a lot more acceptible. Huh... I'll have a look at this. We're doing quite a bit of excavation, anyway, for the build...That’s the best way, but you can also coil them and be less than 100 feet horizontal.
100 ft. is a lot more acceptible. Huh... I'll have a look at this. We're doing quite a bit of excavation, anyway, for the build...That’s the best way, but you can also coil them and be less than 100 feet horizontal.
This is also how I do it. I built a passive solar off-grid house in the woods on my 30+ acres, renting my house by the road.The best way in my opinion is like my retirement home design, passive solar with minimal energy inputs needed for climate control and DC refrigeration, lighting, and cooling. That house will run year around on 12kW of solar and 60kWh of batteries and very little generator time, but it represents a massive lifestyle change that most people don't want to go through.
Our design philosophy are similar.Disagree. I'd have a propane heat backup, but variable speed heat pumps today will heat a room very efficiently without extreme electric usage.
I disagree. I would build my home all-electric, induction range all electric, standard electric HWH. I would not use a demand HWH unit.
This might be wishful thinking. I have 20kw of panels in Phoenix. Somewhat sunnier than New England. I February I had a 1 week period where my average was closer to 25. I also had days over 80. The sun doesn't subscribe to that web site, and you may be running the generator for a week at a stretch with abysmal weather. Plan for it.
Again the objective is seamless/hands-off. I'd consider in-floor heating with multiple/redundant loops with both electric and propane heat available, but I think mini-splits and a propane/wood-stove in the living room for emergency backup heat + ambiance would be lower maintenance.
The problem most people have is demand not average daily kwh. Build out the inverters for demand, add on panels and batteries as needed to meet consumption goals. I put it as "who cares" if I can produce the power need via solar. All the creative stuff you see is to work around demand, but if you look at usage an electric range (for example) generally doesn't consume squat over a month. Even a regular old hot water heater is not that significant. Turn it all on with a microwave, a toaster oven, and a blow dryer, and now you have a demand problem if you don't have enough inverter. I charge two (2) EV's which creates 7600KW of demand for hours. That is a lot of consumption,10% of one car charge (40 min) is roughly a load of laundry, hot water, wash, and electric dry. With my current build I want a third inverter which gets rid of my demand monitoring. I will have a slight increase in solar production from replacing some used panels in a few months up to around 24KW. 60KW of batteries seems to do well but at some point I will want 90
In New England, your overall usage, on an all electric home should be significantly lower than what I use, even with winter heating, I live in a brick (not verneer) home with minimal insulation. Over build to what I will have you should be able to run your power plant and not even think about it. It's all about DEMAND! Increasing production or storage is simple enough once you can meet your demand. If you have access to inexpensive fossil fuels (wood, oil, propane, etc) I'd drop storage, but all those organic heat sources come with a caveat: The price can go up.
I think your correct in most cases for most people , but the price difference depends on where you are and the price for both type fuels…Some of the comments in here about heating and efficiency make me laugh. With the current cost of propane, it's the most expensive way to heat a house currently. Natural gas is next. The latest air source heat pumps are the cheapest way to heat a house at the moment. Air source heat pumps are now efficient enough, even down to around -5F that it's pretty hard to justify the extra cost of ground source heat pumps.
But with that said, because PV productions is so low in the winter, heating with just a heat pump is pretty hard to do off-grid. If I were building the house you're proposing, I would install very efficient variable speed compressor heat pumps with propane furnace / air handler. When you have the electrical power available and especially when the outside temp is 32F or above, use the heat pump for heat. Otherwise, use the propane. There are plenty of thermostats that will automate that for you.
In terms of the actual heat pumps, I would most likely use either Trane XR20i or XR19 units.
If you don't care at all about heating costs, then just go straight propane, but the variable speed compressor units will also save you lots of power on AC and with the variable speed compressors, you won't have the compressor startup surge issues that often cause havoc with inverters. Also, with variable speed units, they will run almost all the time at a low speed without using a lot of wattage. So you may actually be able to reduce the total kw of inverter capacity needed.
Build the power line or don’t rent.(i) When not in use, I will be renting the property. Renters are not energy conscious.
(ii) I will be adding more, but smaller, builds to the property in the future for rental purposes.
(iii) I do NOT want to be constantly thinking about energy usage / conservation when I am using it.
(iv) I do NOT want to be working on the array/inverters/batteries regularly.
Exactly. YOU buy a 1k gallon propane tank, the propane company is not going to want to lease you one if you don't use much. Then, you watch the price and buy one delivery per year at the cheapest rate you can get. Propane gets a lot cheaper when purchased this way.I think your correct in most cases for most people , but the price difference depends on where you are and the price for both type fuels…
The price you negotiate for propane can make all the difference…YES , I said negotiate…!
I have been doing it this way for the last decade once I learned the fact about the business of propane ….before that I paid retail like most everyone…
You don’t want to just ask how much is it …and say OK …..God himself didn’t set the price…
Some guy at a desk did… who is he..? He’s just someone who wants all your money …
There can be huge margin in the propane price and it can be negotiated…
No one walks in and say..hmmmmm that car say it’s 55,000 dollars on the window sticker…
Write him a check babe, Let’s buy it…
Nooooo…
I structured a deal for propane always at least a dollar or more less than the normal retail price posted on the wall each day.. …to refill my small 20.lb tanks is the same price I pay for my 500 gallon tank per gallon …about 8 dollars each or less …..the sign on the wall says it’s 18.00…and no one ever questions it…they just pay it….
I have 12 20 lbs tanks and 2 30’s for back up for my big tank…I questioned their price on my first visit and wound up with a decent deal..for the last decade…
Ya have to ask….they surely won’t offer ….he he he.
The going rate around here for truck delivery if you just order it at the normal price is near 2.60 to 4 dollars per gallon plus tax and inspection fee, BS things , and anything else they can think to add to it……
On the last fill up for the 5 little tanks and the big one I’m paying 1.80 per gallon period…don’t know about this fall yet…
You can’t negotiate easily with a power company… unless you are a whopper of a big company …
Don’t be a guppy…beat ‘em up a little bit…they will surly beat you up if ya let ‘em..
J.
Ha! This is why I posted this here - a reality check. To your point: I don't know of any large-scale off grid operations. I'm not saying that they don't exist; but, if they do, I've not found them yet. And agreed about the the EVs, in particular. I do own a Tesla, and it was a shock to know that the battery was basically the size of a home-based battery bank. Not a good option to charge on a solar operation.Build the power line or don’t rent.
I can’t get my family or house guest to obey limits on solar nevermind a renter who’s driven his EV up there and will rig a level 2 charger with an extension cord to an outlet with one leg and an extend cord to another. I see off grid as you having to take many extra trips there.
And then you put up a second off grid cabin and it won’t get better.
If you are not constantly thinking about energy conservation, off grid is not for you.
I don’t think you will have a build and forget situation you desire by yourself, nevermind with renters.
Are there any off grid cabins where you are and if so how long have they been open for?
My 2 cents-No - no one to share it with, unfortunately. It will be renting through Air BnB, as it is on the River and has a large waterfall, so it will definitely be rentable. That said, accounting may come into play, which could make the on-grid tie in less painful.
I'm an electrician not an HVAC guy. I didn't know that heat pumps were getting this efficient and capable. That's very interesting.The latest air source heat pumps are the cheapest way to heat a house at the moment.
This is exactly my concern for anywhere that sees severe winters much less upstate New York. Setting things up to require what are probably the largest loads during the months of the lowest production doesn't match up well. A combo system with a heat pump and propane back up below a certain temperature would do it. I would use a high efficiency wood stove for the back up heat but OP sounds like he's not going to be living there full time for a while yet and wants things to run as automated as possible.But with that said, because PV productions is so low in the winter, heating with just a heat pump is pretty hard to do off-grid.
I think a Tesla battery is 50 kWh to 75 kWh. A house battery that big is unusual. My Rv has 13 kWh which is huge for an RV and my house had 20 kWh which is average.I do own a Tesla, and it was a shock to know that the battery was basically the size of a home-based battery bank
I installed 96 400W panels on the roof of a purpose designed barn, 4x EG4 18k, 8x PowerPro 14.3kWh batteries. It effectively runs his entire property, 2 barns, 2 wells, 3500sqft house, pool. As far as I know he hasn't paid for electricity since but it was installed last fall, hasn't been through a summer yet.Ha! This is why I posted this here - a reality check. To your point: I don't know of any large-scale off grid operations. I'm not saying that they don't exist; but, if they do, I've not found them yet. And agreed about the the EVs, in particular. I do own a Tesla, and it was a shock to know that the battery was basically the size of a home-based battery bank. Not a good option to charge on a solar operation.
I have had a couple of the 1000 gallon tanks ..I have never been charged rent for one …All 5 companys I dealt with will not fill or work on a tank that’s not there’s.. they will dig it up for you and replace it with their tank usually for cheap ….but I hear that can vary depending where you are…Exactly. YOU buy a 1k gallon propane tank, the propane company is not going to want to lease you one if you don't use much. Then, you watch the price and buy one delivery per year at the cheapest rate you can get. Propane gets a lot cheaper when purchased this way.
Honestly for off the map living you should be supplementing your structure heat with wood. If you have very many acres of forest at all, just the deadfall will support a decent sized structure.
And if the EMP or CME hits, you will be cooking and heating water for a looooong time.
This is what I've been looking for. Where is he located - i.e., what is his sun exposure? Also, what is his consumption? My primary residence is a little larger than that, and with 4 people, or consumption was approximately 33kwh per day. (Heating, hot water and stove are gas). Id love to know how often the generator is running. Any chance that he'd speak to me?I installed 96 400W panels on the roof of a purpose designed barn, 4x EG4 18k, 8x PowerPro 14.3kWh batteries. It effectively runs his entire property, 2 barns, 2 wells, 3500sqft house, pool. As far as I know he hasn't paid for electricity since but it was installed last fall, hasn't been through a summer yet.
BUT
He still has his grid tie and his low temp heat, cooking, and hot water are propane.
I don't know how much more large scale things would get for a single property, to be honest. This system would probably handle an EV with ease (he wanted it overdesigned and was willing to pay for it) but I want to see a year's worth of usage patterns before saying for sure. Based on his previous electricity billing and the calculated system output, he could charge an EV a few times a week no problem.
I specd it at 96kwh for the house. My model Y is 81kwh.I think a Tesla battery is 50 kWh to 75 kWh. A house battery that big is unusual. My Rv has 13 kWh which is huge for an RV and my house had 20 kWh which is average.
This sounds like a great set up!This is also how I do it. I built a passive solar off-grid house in the woods on my 30+ acres, renting my house by the road.
1400sqft, south facing. The south wall is all floor to ceiling windows with a 3' roof overhang. This keeps the sun out in the summer but allows it to penetrate deeply in winter.
I didn't want to live the same as before. I wanted simple, quiet independence and to feel like I'm on vacation in Costa Rica every day. (Live in the hot, humid southeast)
I spent a lot of time with the solar audit in the beginning to see exactly how much power I needed and the equipment required to provide it.
I have a standard size fridge, chest freezer, mini split, tv, starlink, dishwasher, instant pot, microwave, toaster, washer and clothes line. OD propane HW, propane stove. 2 5lb tanks a month.
Use about 8kwh a day. 25kwh lifepo4, 5.5kw pv, 48v 3kva inverter. Running for almost a year now, have not needed the generator yet.
I do pay attention to what the system is doing, but a year has shown me that isn't necessary. We use whatever we want when we want.
Unfortunately, probably not. Very private guy for reasons I'm not allowed to discuss. Signed an NDA for that project, something I've never done before. I don't have remote network access to it either.This is what I've been looking for. Where is he located - i.e., what is his sun exposure? Also, what is his consumption? My primary residence is a little larger than that, and with 4 people, or consumption was approximately 33kwh per day. (Heating, hot water and stove are gas). Id love to know how often the generator is running. Any chance that he'd speak to me?
I put in an openevse charger., I have two EV's. This would be the one thing that could be a big wrench, however I would provide the charger and connect it up like I do, to a control and make it part of the rental agreement you may only use the provided L2, it may not provide consistent output but will give you any overproduction available. I'd give guidance for daytime charging and bill if you detect an EV type load to cover the generator/propane. I went a little beyond, scripted /controlled so mine only allows charging when the solar batteries are at specific target SOC's, and ramps up the rate as long as I am at the target. Currently my batteries are at 70% with a target of 71 at this time of day, thus the charger would be disabled. I ramp up charging current from 8A in 1A increments as long as the SOC is > 3% over the target. I ramp down in 4A increments if SOC falls below the sliding TGT. I sample every 2 minutes. SOC > 95% (my target ceiling) ramps to 32A immediately. My target floor is 20% at 0730. I will bleed off power from the batteries in the early AM , might as well as long as I can get a full charge (to 90% or so) the next day. I got happy and wrote a script, but the openevse has some integrations where you can do similar things with various platforms to control charging. I would not let this be a deterrent. $100K buys a lot of propane and extra battery. 200KWH in 4 full-size RUIXU racks would set you back around $50K. If at 100% it would charge a Tesla from ZERO and run the house for two days with zero sun. Not sure how many people will be scrambling up there in the grayest gloomiest winter with an EV, but with the artificial government push, the number of EV's will be increasing.Ha! This is why I posted this here - a reality check. To your point: I don't know of any large-scale off grid operations. I'm not saying that they don't exist; but, if they do, I've not found them yet. And agreed about the the EVs, in particular. I do own a Tesla, and it was a shock to know that the battery was basically the size of a home-based battery bank. Not a good option to charge on a solar operation.
That is one heck of a system. Is it possible you could technically describe how you put it all together for example how many batteries connected to each inverter and how that was done for load sharing, how are the inverters paralleled together, how is the PV divided up between the units etcI installed 96 400W panels on the roof of a purpose designed barn, 4x EG4 18k, 8x PowerPro 14.3kWh batteries. It effectively runs his entire property, 2 barns, 2 wells, 3500sqft house, pool. As far as I know he hasn't paid for electricity since but it was installed last fall, hasn't been through a summer yet.
BUT
He still has his grid tie and his low temp heat, cooking, and hot water are propane.
I don't know how much more large scale things would get for a single property, to be honest. This system would probably handle an EV with ease (he wanted it overdesigned and was willing to pay for it) but I want to see a year's worth of usage patterns before saying for sure. Based on his previous electricity billing and the calculated system output, he could charge an EV a few times a week no problem.
I didn't even know these existed. This forum is awesome.I put in an openevse charger.,
Each of 4 18K has 24 panels wired in 2 strings with a DC disconnect.That is one heck of a system. Is it possible you could technically describe how you put it all together for example how many batteries connected to each inverter and how that was done for load sharing, how are the inverters paralleled together, how is the PV divided up between the units etc