14.4 KW solar, 40.96 kWh backup, 2 solark 15k inverters, off grid family home, doable or delusional?

[Symbioquine]

You need to plan for the replacement cost of your critical hardware anyway and you'll learn a lot by living with a system for a while. So if your budget is $60K because that's what it would cost to get grid power, I'd argue for spending less than half that up-front on your electricity/energy system. The rest you save (somehow) for future expansion and hardware replacement.

We don't know enough about your financials to say what the best way to put that money aside is, but some examples might be;

• If you're going to have future income and you have existing high interest debt, pay some of it off.
• If you're already betting on the stock market doing reasonably, maybe put it into the S&P500.

A few other points;

• Short term, you can maybe swing a huge house and off-grid system such that you rarely have to think about energy use, but I think being a bit more frugal and energy conscious up-front will make the long-term much more viable (and pleasant) - leaving you more flexibility to grow and adapt as you learn. This does mean your whole family needs to be really on-board though. To paraphrase what someone earlier said, building something completely new from scratch is not for the feint of heart.
• There is a whole industry around energy efficient homes, at the very least get advice from someone professionally. You'll probably end up with thicker walls, more attic insulation, etc. than you imagined.
• Consider at least designing in an area near the house where a ground-source heating/cooling loop could be buried or maybe get this done as part of your site-leveling/foundation-work if the spacing around your building site is going to be tight. Infrastructure like that - and things like up-sized conduit very rarely go bad and can save a ton of money in the long run if you do the work at auspicious times in the overall project.
• Try and make the house part of your electrical system as conventional as possible with the only unusual bit being how power gets to the main breaker panel.
• Consider building at least a minimal backup catchment water system. Wells are risky business. They're expensive, go dry, get contaminated, have failed pumps, etc. Every inch of rainfall on a 2500sqft house is around 1500 gallons and you already have to do most of the work to catch it in order to protect the house. You might as well have a few tanks and a strategy to get/keep it clean.

 

[Quattrohead]

I sell Grundfos. They also make solar powered well pumps: https://product-selection.grundfos.com/us/products/sqflex?tab=explore

Why don't they make above ground well pumps with these motors? I feel like they're missing a huge market more so now than ever.

 

[Quattrohead]

I think the USA in particular is way over fascinated with things being as large as possible. I've seen several people here that think even a 200 amp service is not enough and honestly that is crazy to me. I am able to run an all electric house in Florida with certain things in place like HPWH and easy start on the HVAC with a single 12 KW output inverter, that's 50 amps.
Conservation is not as sexy as electrically equipment but it has a faster return all day long.

 

[Bop]

I think the USA in particular is way over fascinated with things being as large as possible. I've seen several people here that think even a 200 amp service is not enough and honestly that is crazy to me. I am able to run an all electric house in Florida with certain things in place like HPWH and easy start on the HVAC with a single 12 KW output inverter, that's 50 amps.
Conservation is not as sexy as electrically equipment but it has a faster return all day long.

Same here- the US is 'power mad' when it comes to many things- 'utes' with 4 times the horsepower of my 8 tonne tilt-tray truck (and fuel consumption to match), HUGE electrical demand (some US fridges use more than my entire 3 bedroom house with three people living in it- including a 'gadget mad' older guy (guess who that was lol) and a teenager who never learned what an off switch was...)
Our daily consumption was around 7-10kwh a day- in total... running off an 80A 240v mains supply and 6kw of gridtie solar, the electricity bill was usually- zero...
(in fact we often got a few bucks back from them...)
Seriously lol
(they direct deposited the 'bill' amount on the due day straight into our bank account if it was a 'negative bill')

Many offgrid houses here in Australia comfortably run multiple A/Cs, cook on electric and have a lifestyle that it is hard to tell you are actually running purely from solar...
Of course solar here seems to be a lot cheaper than the US as well which helps- people quoting multiple tens of thousands for systems is crazy high price wise (gridties here cost about $3500Au or about $2300US- thats fully installed, no more to pay,and will give you about 35kwh a day in generation, where a 10kw system (requires 3 phase on at the house) is about $6500Au ($4200US) again fully installed, no more to pay, and will generate about 52kwh a day...

My own offgrid system cost me under $2000Au for ex gridtie panels (secondhand, from an installer doing upgrades/repairs) 72x 250W panels totaling 18kw of panels, the most expensive thing was the battery bank ($11800Au) for 20kwh of LYP batteries (better than LFP for either high or low temp applications) 16x400Ah cells- the total system cost $17500Au in total for everything... ($11400US)- sufficent to run a workshop with a mill and metal lathe, welders, air compressors etc, and a 3 bedroom house with A/C- in total that 18kw of solar will be getting up to 90kwh a day...
And I plan to buy an EV this year to boot lol (looking at the BYD Atto3)
all offgrid...

 

[ksmithaz1]

I don't want to get into a battle with anyone, but I have to say that I think @wheisenburg is giving some great advice here. Keep the system size reasonable, and just plan for a reasonable amount of generator use from time to time. You're not gonna destroy the planet with occasional, overall-infrequent use.

This isn't a battle. It's a discussion about the merit's of going "off-grid" with gas, ie propane based appliances vs using propane purely as a backup to run a genny when the sun isn't shining and the batteries are depleted, with all-electric appliances.

Now you are free to do what ever you want with your money, but if you are advising other people that they need 120 KWHs of batteries as a "Starter off grid system", you have some duty to know what the hell you are talking about.

This comment was perhaps a bit coarse, but needs to be taken in context. Pretend you are in a bar discussing some decision made by a player or coach. Then order another round. I am not offended by someone articulating points they feel are important with emphasis that does not always come off the same way in print, as it would if talking across a table. Always take a step back and don't take indirect offense. Good writing is very hard, I'm barely adequate myself, it's easy for it to come off a bit abrupt.

I think my takeaway is the OP is talking about being "off-grid" vs being "off-grid". To me off-grid means self-sufficient. I also think we lose site of overall expendature vs single project expendature. I'm going "off-grid", I have dirt somewhere, and I'm building a driveway of some description to a 2000 square foot house., maybe a garage/workshop, and likely a small structure to house a power plant. So I'm spending maybe $200-300K to put up the structure(s) themselves, possibly more depending on prep. I can put up a bare minimum power plant for $40K or I can put up something dramatically better for $70K... I think there is more to ROI than direct correlation, in particular in the context of a larger project. Further you can't really do a "starter" off-grid system, at a miniumum it must be able to meet the demand of the facility you are building. I'm thinking nice house running water, 3-4BR 2-1/2 bath, garage, not cabin in the woods.

The arguments have merit, but I think they make some assumptions. First, I'd like a bit more detail on the dollar figures for running the appliance, and the genny. They both seem very low to me, and we need to throw in the HWH as well if we are going all electric. The second thing is an assumption that the cost of propane is static, which I think is unlikely, so what we are talking about for ROI is the width of the gaps and the stability of the cost of propane. I'd also like more definition on the 15 vs 6 days of genny. Sounds reasonable but I get so much sunshine here it's hard to get a grasp on expectations from other climate zones. I have 60KWH of batteries and flipped last night about 0300 hours. Came back online at 0900. Adding another 30KWH would have eliminated that flip, this will happen, but there is surely no ROI for it, probably will cost me $4-6.

Also based on taking the argument to the other extreme, you might be better off skipping the solar all-together, just get two genny's alternate them, and run them off propane, get all propane appliances, and get your electric needs down to the bare minimum, maybe a small inverter, and minimal batteries to allow the genny's to cycle. Let the genny system work like a well pump and a pressure tank except for power instead of water.

@B-Mod, in the frozen tundra, has some 200+KWH of batteries, and 50KW of panels. @timselectric (I think he's in Appalachia) is trying to catch up once he get's off his butt and puts up all those panels he bought, and builds out another string or two of batteries. I'm guessing neither would choose to pay for propane if they could build out to eliminate the need. This makes them the local hero's of the forum. To resolve the "Genny days" I think we need to have a good handle on a couple of things. Recovery time to fill battery capacity you have, How long the battery capacity you have will last without any supplement. When this happens how long does it last. What is the overall energy cost when that occurs? I'm not sure we are looking for ROI as much as being energy independent.

 

[Bop]

This isn't a battle. It's a discussion about the merit's of going "off-grid" with gas, ie propane based appliances vs using propane purely as a backup to run a genny when the sun isn't shining and the batteries are depleted, with all-electric appliances.

This comment was perhaps a bit coarse, but needs to be taken in context. Pretend you are in a bar discussing some decision made by a player or coach. Then order another round. I am not offended by someone articulating points they feel are important with emphasis that does not always come off the same way in print, as it would if talking across a table. Always take a step back and don't take indirect offense. Good writing is very hard, I'm barely adequate myself, it's easy for it to come off a bit abrupt.

I think my takeaway is the OP is talking about being "off-grid" vs being "off-grid". To me off-grid means self-sufficient. I also think we lose site of overall expendature vs single project expendature. I'm going "off-grid", I have dirt somewhere, and I'm building a driveway of some description to a 2000 square foot house., maybe a garage/workshop, and likely a small structure to house a power plant. So I'm spending maybe $200-300K to put up the structure(s) themselves, possibly more depending on prep. I can put up a bare minimum power plant for $40K or I can put up something dramatically better for $70K... I think there is more to ROI than direct correlation, in particular in the context of a larger project. Further you can't really do a "starter" off-grid system, at a miniumum it must be able to meet the demand of the facility you are building. I'm thinking nice house running water, 3-4BR 2-1/2 bath, garage, not cabin in the woods.

The arguments have merit, but I think they make some assumptions. First, I'd like a bit more detail on the dollar figures for running the appliance, and the genny. They both seem very low to me, and we need to throw in the HWH as well if we are going all electric. The second thing is an assumption that the cost of propane is static, which I think is unlikely, so what we are talking about for ROI is the width of the gaps and the stability of the cost of propane. I'd also like more definition on the 15 vs 6 days of genny. Sounds reasonable but I get so much sunshine here it's hard to get a grasp on expectations from other climate zones. I have 60KWH of batteries and flipped last night about 0300 hours. Came back online at 0900. Adding another 30KWH would have eliminated that flip, this will happen, but there is surely no ROI for it, probably will cost me $4-6.

Also based on taking the argument to the other extreme, you might be better off skipping the solar all-together, just get two genny's alternate them, and run them off propane, get all propane appliances, and get your electric needs down to the bare minimum, maybe a small inverter, and minimal batteries to allow the genny's to cycle. Let the genny system work like a well pump and a pressure tank except for power instead of water.

@B-Mod, in the frozen tundra, has some 200+KWH of batteries, and 50KW of panels. @timselectric (I think he's in Appalachia) is trying to catch up once he get's off his butt and puts up all those panels he bought, and builds out another string or two of batteries. I'm guessing neither would choose to pay for propane if they could build out to eliminate the need. This makes them the local hero's of the forum. To resolve the "Genny days" I think we need to have a good handle on a couple of things. Recovery time to fill battery capacity you have, How long the battery capacity you have will last without any supplement. When this happens how long does it last. What is the overall energy cost when that occurs? I'm not sure we are looking for ROI as much as being energy independent.

This is what I meant about high prices in the US- $40K US is $61K Au- which would get you a system capable of running a small factory, or a string of houses... not a 'bare bones' bare minimum system...
$60KUS is $92KAU- which I would expect everything (including the panels) to literally be gold plated for that price...
My system (admittedly the panels were secondhand and only cost $2000, but everything was brand new) was a grand total of only $17500Au, and specced to run a workshop as well as the house, with no provision for anything except the solar...- to buy the panels new would have added an extra $10K to the price, making it a total of $27K Au or $17.5KUS
Some 'edge' cases (ie near the arctic circle lol) might cost more- but then I expect 'everything' costs more there...

A $92K Au system would be simply MASSIVE here, generating as much as some small powerstations!!!

(many remote Australian places used to use diesel gennys (propane- or LPG as it is called here is $$$$) but even diesel gennys can cost a small fortune to run- a 12kw diesel genny running 24/7 at minimum load costs around $22k a year just in fuel- at minimum load!!!...
Add the initial $12-14k to buy it and that 12kw solar system looks pretty good value lol)
(I'm only 3 hours drive from the capital city of Brisbane- and fuel here is usually between $2.20 and $2.40 a litre for diesel...head out west and that price can double...)

 

[muaddib721]

Have you tried to use the Sol-Ark system sizing tool or the solar panel calculator? I found them very useful. FYI we live in southeastern Louisiana and have the following system that powers our whole house.

Link to system tool: https://www.sol-ark.com/calculator/

Link to panel sizing tool: https://www.sol-ark.com/solar-panel-sizing/SolarPanelSizing.html

2 x Sol-Ark 15ks in parallel
3 x EG4 Power Pro's
6 x EG4 LL V2's
4.8k watts of AC coupled solar
4.8k of DC coupled solar
(PV will soon be doubled its the only weak point in my setup)

 

[ksmithaz1]

I think the USA in particular is way over fascinated with things being as large as possible. I've seen several people here that think even a 200 amp service is not enough and honestly that is crazy to me. I am able to run an all electric house in Florida with certain things in place like HPWH and easy start on the HVAC with a single 12 KW output inverter, that's 50 amps.
Conservation is not as sexy as electrically equipment but it has a faster return all day long.

Funny you say that, to your point ... I've said it before I will say it again, it's all about DEMAND. I think part of this, and a big consideration if you're going off-grid, is how far we get pushed into electric vehicles. Compared to a HWH or Dryer an EV is an order of magnitude different. In particular if you want to run an EV and you are 'off-grid' it is likely you will be traveling a good distance when you do use it. At a generous 4.0mi.KWH driving back and forth to town 30 miles each way, it's going to eat 15KWH (a bit more likely). I split out a 100A panel for my entire all-electric home. This is a little tight if I'm charging my EV, however 125A will pretty much cover my needs, allowing a single car to charge without a potential demand issue. I will be upgrading as time permits. I'm running standard electric appliances, with an induction range, a third inverter is in my future.

Thus conservation is surely always important, but I would not build an off-grid power plant for a 2000 sqft home, without allowing for 150A of demand from the system no matter what the various components. This get's back to the ROI discussion on gas appliances. An EV is something I definitely have a great deal more control over when it get's charged. Since I would want to build out to be able to charge an EV the additional power to run an HWH/Clothes dryer must become a demand issue not an overall power issue. The two vehicles I have in an urban environment accout for about 1/5 of my overall power needs year round, higher in the winter, much higher in spring/fall, dramatically lower in the summer.

My "starter" solar system was built for 100A of demand, because I made that determination based on the fact that I moved everything into the 100A panel one thing at a time, and monitored it with sensors. The original intent was to shuffle loads with ATS's back and forth. What a PITA / dumb idea that was, though I did write the software to do it. IMNSHO if I'm going off grid, I don't mind maintenance, but I don't really want my power plant to have to stay at the top of my mind 24x7. I want the peace of mind and confidence to know it will perform without me being involved no matter the demand or power requirement.

 

[Banjoman]

Why don't they make above ground well pumps with these motors? I feel like they're missing a huge market more so now than ever.

Its a matter of what scales at the most cost effective and the uptake rate of the market if a product is considered

 

[SilverbackMP]

Some people can get themselves out of that Southwest-SoCal bubble way of thinking. Mostly Californians. They think the rest of the world either operates the way they do or should operate the way they do…ignoring all other factors.

So yes to a gas dryer. Maybe supplement with air drying, but all through my junior high to high school years I swore I would always have a dryer just to remove lint. Black T shirts? More like ugly gray t shirts after a few washings and no dryer.

All in one washer dryer? Yeah, most of those don’t air fluff. You have to literally peal the clothes off the sides of the drum after a dryer cycle.

Inverter dryer? Besides the low capacity and excessive long drying time, you are throwing out airborne microplastics. Better have an ERV return duct in the laundry room (to be fair, that’s not a bad idea anyway).

I would consider the inverter option as a supplemental dyer (if there is an ERV), but I dammed sure need a gas option too…as I don’t live in a desert.

 

[Bop]

Funny you say that, to your point ... I've said it before I will say it again, it's all about DEMAND. I think part of this, and a big consideration if you're going off-grid, is how far we get pushed into electric vehicles. Compared to a HWH or Dryer an EV is an order of magnitude different. In particular if you want to run an EV and you are 'off-grid' it is likely you will be traveling a good distance when you do use it. At a generous 4.0mi.KWH driving back and forth to town 30 miles each way, it's going to eat 15KWH (a bit more likely). I split out a 100A panel for my entire all-electric home. This is a little tight if I'm charging my EV, however 125A will pretty much cover my needs, allowing a single car to charge without a potential demand issue. I will be upgrading as time permits. I'm running standard electric appliances, with an induction range, a third inverter is in my future.

Thus conservation is surely always important, but I would not build an off-grid power plant for a 2000 sqft home, without allowing for 150A of demand from the system no matter what the various components. This get's back to the ROI discussion on gas appliances. An EV is something I definitely have a great deal more control over when it get's charged. Since I would want to build out to be able to charge an EV the additional power to run an HWH/Clothes dryer must become a demand issue not an overall power issue. The two vehicles I have in an urban environment accout for about 1/5 of my overall power needs year round, higher in the winter, much higher in spring/fall, dramatically lower in the summer.

My "starter" solar system was built for 100A of demand, because I made that determination based on the fact that I moved everything into the 100A panel one thing at a time, and monitored it with sensors. The original intent was to shuffle loads with ATS's back and forth. What a PITA / dumb idea that was, though I did write the software to do it. IMNSHO if I'm going off grid, I don't mind maintenance, but I don't really want my power plant to have to stay at the top of my mind 24x7. I want the peace of mind and confidence to know it will perform without me being involved no matter the demand or power requirement.

It's funny- I am actually looking at getting an EV myself (despite being both totally offgrid here and in a very rural area) it makes good financial sense and even the cheaper end of the market has more than adequate range (especially when coupled with our extensive public charger system here- even my little country town (1500 people) now has a public charger, and there are 15 within an hours drive...
My 18kw of panels will be over 80kwh a day total generation (and with my 'normal usage' going between 7-10kwh a day, there is plenty of excess to run both my workshop and charge an EV)
Literally in the middle of this... 100% solar...

 

[wheisenburg]

Have you tried to use the Sol-Ark system sizing tool or the solar panel calculator? I found them very useful. FYI we live in southeastern Louisiana and have the following system that powers our whole house.

Link to system tool: https://www.sol-ark.com/calculator/

Link to panel sizing tool: https://www.sol-ark.com/solar-panel-sizing/SolarPanelSizing.html

2 x Sol-Ark 15ks in parallel
3 x EG4 Power Pro's
6 x EG4 LL V2's
4.8k watts of AC coupled solar
4.8k of DC coupled solar
(PV will soon be doubled its the only weak point in my setup)

Very nice build.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Found an article from a propane company, a bit dated, but it's the volumetrics that we are looking for. . .

Efficiency of Propane Gas vs. Electric Clothes Dryers

Propane can power many appliances, including your clothes dryer. If your house uses propane for heat, cooking, or to power other appliances, adding a propane gas clothes dryer could help dry your clothes more efficiently.

www.kauffmangas.com

"

• Gas dryers use about 15-25 gallons of propane per year. With the small amount of propane needed, the price per gallon is more expensive (currently about $4.22/gallon). But if you have more appliances running on propane and you order more, the price/gallon is lower (approximately $2.50/gallon).
  • Few gas appliances ($4.22/gallon): $4.22 (price per gallon) x 25 (gallons per year)= $105/year.
• Several gas appliances ($2.50/gallon): $2.50 (price per gallon) x 25 (gallons per year)= $62.50/year.
• Electric dryers use about 3.3kWH per load. At an average rate of $.093 per kWh, that equals $.31 a load. The average family that uses 5 loads per week will spend $1.55 per week, or roughly $80/year.

"

5 loads / week . . . Bwahahahahah. More like 5 loads a day . . . I digress, using 10 for a household with teenagers, 33KWH/week. In normalizing the apples and oranges above 52 * 5 = 25 gal / 260 loads = .0.961 * 10 = ~0.95gal/week. Assuming an abysmal week always implies the need to run the genny for the boss's underthings, and we have 10 abysmal weeks / year, we would need to generate or store an additional ~330 KWH over 10 weeks. Just ~double it for the HWH and range, call it 700KWH of production /10weeks vs about 50-60 gallons of propane/year.

Generator Cost Per kWh: Diesel, Propane, Natural Gas, Gasoline

The US national average cost of electricity from the grid is about $0.15/kWh. How does the cost per kWh from generators compare? Obviously, the generator cost per kWh will be higher, otherwise everybody would be using generators for electricity. But how much higher? $0.20/kWh? $0.40/kWh? Even...

learnmetrics.com

Claims about 0.45/KWH from a propane genny. About $300 for 10 weeks converting propane to electricity to run electric appliances during a worst case winter with 10 weeks of ZERO sunshine. About 50 gallons of propane to just run the gas appliances year round about $150 @ $3/gal.

The ROI is clearly better for all gas, so if the object of the exercise if to do it as cheaply as possible go all gas if you are going to have 10 weeks of no sunshine and you can't store the solar. The opex falls lower for electric if you can cut the window down closer to 5 weeks, and you're never going to own an EV, but it will never pay you back. These numbers are all so small it almost seems irellevant.

Personally, I'd rather not have gas lines running in my house, and my goal would be self-sufficiency not $$$. I would probably not opt to go "off-grid" with solar, in a place that had even 5 weeks of zero production. If +$40K over 20 years is +$2K/year to be self-sufficient, and able to function normally with minimal outside help, I'm in.

 

[ksmithaz1]

Literally in the middle of this... 100% solar...

18KW of panels may not cut it with an EV unless you plan on frequenting those charging stations frequently . I have right at 18 now, going to push up closer to 23, that should provide the edge I need to get over the hump. The problem is not zero days its extended periods of low production/high use, and the ability to have the EV plugged in during the times you have excess you can't store. YMMV if your overall needs are really low. I keep playing with charging rates, times, and roll-off

Nice location...

 

[Zwy]

Found an article from a propane company, a bit dated, but it's the volumetrics that we are looking for. . .

Efficiency of Propane Gas vs. Electric Clothes Dryers

Propane can power many appliances, including your clothes dryer. If your house uses propane for heat, cooking, or to power other appliances, adding a propane gas clothes dryer could help dry your clothes more efficiently.

www.kauffmangas.com

"

• Gas dryers use about 15-25 gallons of propane per year.

I will have a spare 500 gallon propane tank after I get my gasification wood boiler running along with 2 heat pumps for heating.

If I fill it (80%) and hook it to a gas dryer, use 20 gallons a year, I will be able dry clothes for 20 years.

Propane truck was here this week, I had prepaid $1.30/gallon. That means it would cost me $26 per year for dryer use, about $0.50 per week.

Right now the electric takes about 6Kwh per drying cycle, my wife runs it on average twice a week so 12Kwh x 52 weeks = 624Kwh

I always use $0.20/Kwh. That comes to $124.80 per year for drying clothes.

I think I'll buy a gas dryer now instead of a heat pump dryer. Thanks.

 

[Bop]

18KW of panels may not cut it with an EV unless you plan on frequenting those charging stations frequently . I have right at 18 now, going to push up closer to 23, that should provide the edge I need to get over the hump. The problem is not zero days its extended periods of low production/high use, and the ability to have the EV plugged in during the times you have excess you can't store. YMMV if your overall needs are really low. I keep playing with charging rates, times, and roll-off

Nice location...

18kw of panels gives me about 80-90kwh a day here- I could recharge the EV I am looking at (BYD Atto 3) 60kwh battery pack from empty to full with 450km range and my normal usage of 7-10kwh a day, and still have ample power left for the workshop even...
Considering that mileage is over an entire weeks worth of driving for me, and could be recharged in one day, I suspect I will rarely if ever need to visit the local charger...
This is my 'retirement home' so I really don't have the need for that much travelling these days-- the workshop will consume far more power than the EV will...

 

[ksmithaz1]

I will have a spare 500 gallon propane tank after I get my gasification wood boiler running along with 2 heat pumps for heating.

If I fill it (80%) and hook it to a gas dryer, use 20 gallons a year, I will be able dry clothes for 20 years.

Propane truck was here this week, I had prepaid $1.30/gallon. That means it would cost me $26 per year for dryer use, about $0.50 per week.

Right now the electric takes about 6Kwh per drying cycle, my wife runs it on average twice a week so 12Kwh x 52 weeks = 624Kwh

I always use $0.20/Kwh. That comes to $124.80 per year for drying clothes.

I think I'll buy a gas dryer now instead of a heat pump dryer. Thanks.

Don't forget a 'gas' clothes dryer DOES have an electric motor. ;-)

 

[Hedges]

One can certainly get by with less, like 30A, 7500W, if not much in the way of electric heating (or cooling) appliances.

My sister's house had 30A service, I think. Probably my mother's did originally.
My mothers had been upgraded to 100A, with electric ovens and dryer outlet, outlet for range as well but has gas cooktop.
Remodeling my sister's, I installed 100A. She remodeled again decades later, adding A/C, and put in 200A.
Now that my mother's is mine, I'm in the process of putting in 200A.

Could get by with less, but upgrade required by 120% rule given the PV wattage I'm installing (15kW), with an eye toward banking credits for electric heat.

We can get panels for 100A, 125A, 150A, 200A, 225A. Standard sizes are what's most economical, and when doing an upgrade much better to aim higher than needed. The point is never having to say, "Oops, it tripped. Need to turn something off."

Living with an inverter, managing peak watts and SoC/kWh is key.

Propane truck was here this week, I had prepaid $1.30/gallon. That means it would cost me $26 per year for dryer use, about $0.50 per week.

Right now the electric takes about 6Kwh per drying cycle, my wife runs it on average twice a week so 12Kwh x 52 weeks = 624Kwh

I always use $0.20/Kwh. That comes to $124.80 per year for drying clothes.

My San Jose rates, electric dryer would cost you $3.60/week ($7.20 peak hours.)
DIY PV would knock that down to $0.36/week.

It seems like propane, at your prices, is good to have. But PV, especially at the panel prices we've been seeing lately, is also good.

Have one dryer of each kind, one water heater of each kind, one furnace of each kind.
There are a few heat pumps with gas backup, most use resistance.
But given PV costs, I think simplicity of resistance heat not heat pump is the way to go, except possibly for winter heating if PV + heat pump has a chance.
Rebates and tax credits may make now a good time to buy heat pump something.

 

[Bop]

LPG (propane to the yanks) is a poor choice where I am in Australia- close to one of the most expensive ways there is to power a home...
LPG is currently $1.19 per litre, so a 40kg tank costs close to $100 a tank, and would last a house with a gas stove and hot water service about 2 to 3 weeks per tank...

A 500 gallon tank is 2300 litres, at $1.19Au a litre to refill here where I am, (in Brisbane it's cheaper), is just over $2700Au per tankload (plus delivery fee)- five of those tanks and you have paid for my LYP battery bank and have some left over...

 

[ksmithaz1]

We can get panels for 100A, 125A, 150A, 200A, 225A. Standard sizes are what's most economical, and when doing an upgrade much better to aim higher than needed. The point is never having to say, "Oops, it tripped. Need to turn something off."
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It seems like propane, at your prices, is good to have. But PV, especially at the panel prices we've been seeing lately, is also good.
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Have one dryer of each kind, one water heater of each kind, one furnace of each kind.

Agree. and I want my solar to handle whatever the panel will handle from a demand perspective.
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If I could get propane for a buck a gallon, I'd probably re-think a few things. That is REALLY cheap.
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"Kewl" best of both worlds, across all appliances, lousy ROI but nice if you can do it from a redundancy POV.

But given PV costs, I think simplicity of resistance heat not heat pump is the way to go, except possibly for winter heating if PV + heat pump has a chance.
Rebates and tax credits may make now a good time to buy heat pump something.

I'm all in. If you already had propane and you are retro-fitting that's one thing, but building new off-grid, I'd have propane, but only to run a generator in a big tank behind my power plant. You pretty much have to run electric for a modern structure no matter what. It really simplifies if you wire up and use it for everything, and when properly installed is much more forgiving than piping gas into your home. As much as people talk about "cooking with gas" I prefer electric. My induction range boils water in no time flat, and gas ovens are annoying IMNSHO. And before you say it, commercial enterprises prefer gas because it's cheaper. That does not make it better per se.

In some climates a heat pump is sub-optimal, but they keep getting better, but I'm gonna likely want AC anyway, so burning something for me would be as a last resort.

Solar ain't cheap, and the ROI is not great when you scale it out to the edge case use, but production costs keep dropping, to the point it's more around the storage cost to pick up that edge, and there is downward pressure there as well.