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diy solar

Micro Inverters

MatthewMaday

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Jan 30, 2020
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I am considering going the micro-inverter route and am wondering if Bill's book has a blueprint to set one up. My place is 100% off-grid and I'd like to be able to add batteries and panels as needed without needing to change out the solar converter and inverter as I do so. I have a battery system that I'd eventually like to increase to 30 kwh. If Bill's book doesn't cover microinverters, is there another resource?

Thanks for any help provided
 
I don't know that Will has ever done anything with microinverters. Microinverters can be used off-grid and they do make a lot of things simpler...but the problem with grid-tied microinverters is they need something to set the AC frequency to know how to curtail their power output. So, you'll need something like the Enphase Encharge, Tesla Powerwall, or an AC Coupling solution.
 
I don't think micro inverters are cost effective for off grid use. As @svetz mentioned they can be run if AC coupled to a hybrid inverter but unless you already have a hybrid inverter I don't think they would be the optimum solution. Most hybrid inverters have features that would go unused in an off grid environment so you would probably pay more for a hybrid inverter than for the same capacity of an off grid inverter. Your mileage may vary and I am on the grid and use AC coupling to leverage my grid tie micro inverters and grid tie string inverter.
 
Don't micro inverters convert DC TO AC? So you can use it in your hour right away but then to store it you need to convert it back to DC for your batteries. Then re convert it to AC again, or am I way off on this?
 
Don't micro inverters convert DC TO AC? So you can use it in your hour right away but then to store it you need to convert it back to DC for your batteries. Then re convert it to AC again, or am I way off on this?
Yes micro inverters output AC. By their design they try to get max power off of the panel and turn it into AC to make your meter go backwards. Unless you have a way to consume what they can make, when they make it, they are not the best choice. Enphase has one that can run by itself, providing its own AC base signal and it can throttle back. There is a demo video on Youtube showing them running AC loads directly from the panel/inverter output.

To the original poster, smaller inverters that can be run in parallel might be an option to allow the system to grow in stages, adding X number of panels and one more parallel inverter/charger per stage.
 
Don't micro inverters convert DC TO AC? So you can use it in your hour right away but then to store it you need to convert it back to DC for your batteries. Then re convert it to AC again, or am I way off on this?
It's not really any different than a string inverter as they convert DC to DC (the charge controller) and then DC to AC (inverter).

Keep in mind "small" microinverters are typically very efficient. For example the Enphase IQ7 has an efficiency of 97.5%, and the Encharge has a round-trip of 96%. So, DC->AC, DC-AC is 93.6%.

Compare that to an off-grid inverter like Schneider Conext that has a 92% efficiency. To get the round trip you need to multiply that by the MPPT efficiency to get the actual overall efficiency. Say the MPPT was 98%, and the battery round trip efficiency 98%, then the full round trip is 88% for a DC-DC, DC-AC. Not to mention with microinverters each panel has it's own MPPT so no shade or losses from panels not matching perfectly in a string. Then there are intangibles such as getting per panel diagnostics.

Currently though panels are cheap compared to storage, and if you're doing things in stages AC batteries don't have the growth problems of DC systems (see Incrementally adding DC batteries). As @DThames points out, super easy to expand a microinverter system too.

There's a whole lot to love about microinverters: they typically have 25 year warranties over the 5 year warranty on off-grid inverters, there's no single point of failure with microinverters as there are with MPPT/String-inverters. If you can get setup at a cost-effective price they're the way to go (and on my roof).

...I don't think micro inverters are cost effective for off grid use...
I wouldn't rule anything out until I had price quotes. Things seem crazy right now... for example I just ran a tesla quote for two powerwalls (28 kWh), $9,310 (including the 26% tax incentive if installed with solar). Supposedly, Tesla's powerwalls can frequency shift inverters, so that might be all that's needed for an off-grid setup:

...when disconnected the PW2 shifts the AC frequency slightly as it gets close to filling up with kWhs. The inverter sees the frequency shifting and throttles back the power (this is a feature of AS4777.2 for those who are technical). [ref]
 
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Micro inverters also gain efficiency if there are shading issues or if the panels are at different angles. Sometimes those gains are enough to offset the losses for going DC-AC-DC-AC. And besides that, anything that is used by the house loads or is pushed into the grid doesn't get converted back to DC.
 
Micro inverters also gain efficiency if there are shading issues or if the panels are at different angles. Sometimes those gains are enough to offset the losses for going DC-AC-DC-AC
Yes that is the scenario where the extra cost of the micro inverters and the extra cost of the hybrid inverter may have some economic benefit compared to an off grid string inverter. IF shade were an issue one comparison that would be useful to compare is just adding optimizers like Tigo to the off grid string inverter.
 
What the poster meant to say....
...For example the Enphase IQ7 has an efficiency of 97.5%, and the Encharge has a round-trip of 96%. So, DC->AC, DC-AC is 93.6%....
Misread the datasheet... the Encharge battery has a round-trip of 96%, but the actual AC-AC round-trip is only 89%. So, not including any power directly consumed (which is at 97.5% efficiency) the solar->battery->AC is .89x.975 = 86.8%

...Schneider Conext that has a 92% efficiency. To get the round trip you need to multiply that by the MPPT efficiency to get the actual overall efficiency. Say the MPPT was 98%, and the battery round trip efficiency 98%, then the full round trip is 88% ...
Battery RTD is obviously high, should be 96% which brings the Conext down to 86.6%.
 
What the poster meant to say....

Misread the datasheet... the Encharge battery has a round-trip of 96%, but the actual AC-AC round-trip is only 89%. So, not including any power directly consumed (which is at 97.5% efficiency) the solar->battery->AC is .89x.975 = 86.8%


Battery RTD is obviously high, should be 96% which brings the Conext down to 86.6%.
So I think I'm probably confused again. Your fault ;-)

I went out and bought about 15 kwh of batteries (cheap!). Now, I was thinking I would not use micro inverters because of the seeming extra step: from the source/panels it'd be DC-AC (micro inverter), then into the batteries its AC-DC (charge controller..?), then DC-AC into the load.

Well, first off I realize I hadn't considered that much (most?) of my source would be used immediately by my primary load (central air conditioning). But after reading this thread I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to convert the (remaining) AC into DC to charge my lfp batteries and then invert it back as needed when I use the batteries for whatever. I like the idea of being able to watch and control my panels individually, as well as having easier access to AC power and increased reliability.

But I still have to convert and invert panel and battery power to utilize my storage. Alas, I'm only familiar with the kinds of inverters and all-in-one boxes that Will has on his channel. Is there something available that can control power into and out of my batteries that isn't super expensive? Do I need a converter/inverter/controller thingy?

Thanks for your time.

--
Steve
 
You can buy inexpensive all in one inverter/charge controllers that work well. But if one part breaks or if you need to expand later, if might be least expensive to replace the whole all in one unit. Also, the DC-AC-DC-AC loss isn't as important if only a small percentage of your solar production is used for charging batteries. And it's cheap to over panel if you have the space. If you are grid tied you probably won't use your batteries as much as someone who is off grid.
I am just passing along what I have read. Hopefully someone with more experience will have something to say.
 
...So I think I'm probably confused again. Your fault ;-)...
Apologies my calculator skills are sub-par, that's why I try to show all the steps so those with more nimble fingers can do it correctly. But, the steps should be correct so you can calculate the efficiency for any gear combination.

...I went out and bought about 15 kwh of batteries (cheap!)...
Now that you have DIY batteries...microinverters may not be a good fit for you.

The reason is your off-grid inverter... it might trick the microinverters to turn on during an outage, which can cause big problems. They can be AC coupled by sending their power through an inverter designed for it (e.g., the Radian). Take a look at @GXMnow's thread Adding storage to my Enphase system as he does that. Otherwise you need a battery-system that can throttle back the solar panel outputs such as a tesla powerwall or Enphase Encharge. AFAIK, no one knows how to do this DIY other than via AC Coupling.

But, now that you have batteries I'd say you want a true quality hybrid inverter like the Sol-Ark or Skybox. Not sure about skybox, but last time I looked into it (years ago now) Sol-Arc had very high efficiencies.
 
Apologies my calculator skills are sub-par, that's why I try to show all the steps so those with more nimble fingers can do it correctly. But, the steps should be correct so you can calculate the efficiency for any gear combination.


Now that you have DIY batteries...microinverters may not be a good fit for you.

The reason is your off-grid inverter... it might trick the microinverters to turn on during an outage, which can cause big problems. They can be AC coupled by sending their power through an inverter designed for it (e.g., the Radian). Take a look at @GXMnow's thread Adding storage to my Enphase system as he does that. Otherwise you need a battery-system that can throttle back the solar panel outputs such as a tesla powerwall or Enphase Encharge. AFAIK, no one knows how to do this DIY other than via AC Coupling.

But, now that you have batteries I'd say you want a true quality hybrid inverter like the Sol-Ark or Skybox. Not sure about skybox, but last time I looked into it (years ago now) Sol-Arc had very high efficiencies.

DIY powerwalls really make micro inverters look bad. Someone needs to come up with a simple solution. I would think you could plug something into the wall to charge up the batteries and connect the battery to the electrical panel like a generator. Seems simple and you'd be charging with solar when the sun is shining.
 
The original poster states 100% off grid. That makes it a very interesting exercise to see if micro inverters could be cost effective.

The whole issue still comes back to how much power and when is it used.

There are several inverter/chargers that can do the frequency shift to curtail micro inverter output. If all of the solar is going to be run through micro inverters, then the only way to charge the battery is going to be with an AC to DC charger of some sort. Most inverter/chargers that can do frequency shift control can only control grid tie (micros inverters) up to about the same amount of power. Some only up to 80%, and then there is the Outback Skybox at up to about 150%, but only if the inverters are running in Rule 21 or H14 where they do very well controlled power control based on frequency.

Since this is all about a pure 100% off grid system, there will never be any grid sell of power. This makes it easier in some ways, but also a little harder in that you need to deal with all of the power on site all of the time. And if you run short, you don't have the grid to fall back on, so most likely you will need some form of a fuel generator. Everyone with solar has had some of the days where production is far less than half of normal due to weather etc.

No matter how you slice it, there is no cost effective way to make an off grid system infinitely upgradeable. At some point you will either need a bigger battery inverter, or you may be able to stack on another if the unit supports it. Otherwise, you are limited to how much it can control. So any design does need to start with a reasonable estimate of the amount of short term power you will need, and how much energy will be needed for a full day. And then you have to decide how much more you are willing to spend to leave room for growth in there.

You can always add more battery. It would take a crazy oversize battery to make it where a charger can't eventually charge it due to cell losses. I only have 17 KWH's of battery, but if I wanted to go off grid, I would need at least double to be safe. My Schneider XW-Pro can very easily handle over 1000 Amp Hours or 50 KWH's of battery. So there is one place where upgrading should not be an issue.

After doing my short off grid test, I did learn a bit about what happens without a grid to fall back on. I really like my Enphase iQ7 micro inverters. They are incredibly efficient, and I would go this way again for a new grid tie system for sure, and even for a hybrid like I am doing, they are quite amazing at getting the most out of the solar panels to run the loads in your home. But if I had to be off grid I think a split system makes the most sense. Use enough micro inverters to supply the day time loads. Power that is used while the sun is shining is best done by the micros. For my home, I could get away with probably just 2 to 3 KW worth of the micros. The only time I pull more than that is when my A/C compressor is running. And in an off grid situation, I would not be using my 4,500 watt power hog central A/C. I would use a few much more efficient "mini split" systems. And only cool rooms that are in use. Maybe even a water chiller zone system. They can cut the power need in half. The next part of the system is the power needed for when there is no sun. The battery needs to really be able to supply this for at least 2 days for a reliable off grid system. But don't worry about the day time load, that does help a chunk. So 2,500 watts for over 4 hours is off the table. That is 10 KWH's of the daily power taken care of by the micro inverters. On a good day, my not so efficient home with my pig A/C running a bit can get away with 30 KWH's a day. My "Average Daily Useage" on my SCE electric bill shows about 20 KWH's, but I have to add another 20 KWH's that I am getting from my solar. So 40 KWH's total in summer, using A/C. 10 from the micro inverters, so the other 30 has to come from DC coupled solar charging the batteries to get us through the night. For this, I can safely use 5 hours of sun for the calculation. 30 KWH / 5 H = 6 KW of DC solar.

My house is not a good example for going off grid, it is not very efficient at all, but if I had to... That would be my math. And it leaves some room for expansion if it falls short and has to use the generator too much. 6KW of DC solar charging 50 KWH's of LFP or NMC batteries, a 5,000 watt or more battery inverter that can do frequency shift control, and 3 kw of micro inverter solar. This get's the best of both worlds. It can be done with a Skybox, Sol-Ark, Magnum, Schneider, etc. The generator should be auto start, or have a good warning to get a manual up and running before the battery goes too low. And at least 5,000 watts of generator in case of poor solar for a few days in a row. This would require almost double the solar I have now. That will not all fit on my roof without getting very creative. Maybe putting panels on the north angled face, but having them tipped up to at least flat, if not a bit to the south... That might do the trick.
 
Apologies my calculator skills are sub-par, that's why I try to show all the steps so those with more nimble fingers can do it correctly. But, the steps should be correct so you can calculate the efficiency for any gear combination.


Now that you have DIY batteries...microinverters may not be a good fit for you.

The reason is your off-grid inverter... it might trick the microinverters to turn on during an outage, which can cause big problems. They can be AC coupled by sending their power through an inverter designed for it (e.g., the Radian). Take a look at @GXMnow's thread Adding storage to my Enphase system as he does that. Otherwise you need a battery-system that can throttle back the solar panel outputs such as a tesla powerwall or Enphase Encharge. AFAIK, no one knows how to do this DIY other than via AC Coupling.

But, now that you have batteries I'd say you want a true quality hybrid inverter like the Sol-Ark or Skybox. Not sure about skybox, but last time I looked into it (years ago now) Sol-Arc had very high efficiencies.
Thanks for your help. Of course my comment was a joke up top. I'm used to being the only one who thinks I'm funny. I will look over your and other's comments and figure out what I need to do. This forum continues to be invaluable. Thanks again everyone.

Couple points just FYI: I live in San Diego 'north county inland' and have tons of sun. I also have a 100' X 20' high south-facing (mostly rock) 60 degree hill backing my yard along with my south-facing roof. So I have plenty of room for panels. Also, my home is very energy inefficient such that with a single(!) Central AC unit I am literally unable to cool the upstairs on a hot day. Thus the impetus for solar. Guess I eventually need mini splits and/or some duct work. I do not trust SDG&E. I would love to stay off grid or have a setup where I only use it if necessary.

Right now all I own is the batteries, so currently I feel a bit like Sisyphus on the learning curve. Good thing I are an engineer. Too bad I chose CS instead of EE.. I think the first thing I need to do is top balance them dam batteries. Then I need to buy panels and other electronics, then wire, and crimp a bunch of shit together. Can't wait to use those big ass crimpers. Fun fun fun. ?

--
Steve
 
The original poster states 100% off grid. That makes it a very interesting exercise to see if micro inverters could be cost effective.

The whole issue still comes back to how much power and when is it used.

There are several inverter/chargers that can do the frequency shift to curtail micro inverter output. If all of the solar is going to be run through micro inverters, then the only way to charge the battery is going to be with an AC to DC charger of some sort. Most inverter/chargers that can do frequency shift control can only control grid tie (micros inverters) up to about the same amount of power. Some only up to 80%, and then there is the Outback Skybox at up to about 150%, but only if the inverters are running in Rule 21 or H14 where they do very well controlled power control based on frequency.

Since this is all about a pure 100% off grid system, there will never be any grid sell of power. This makes it easier in some ways, but also a little harder in that you need to deal with all of the power on site all of the time. And if you run short, you don't have the grid to fall back on, so most likely you will need some form of a fuel generator. Everyone with solar has had some of the days where production is far less than half of normal due to weather etc.

No matter how you slice it, there is no cost effective way to make an off grid system infinitely upgradeable. At some point you will either need a bigger battery inverter, or you may be able to stack on another if the unit supports it. Otherwise, you are limited to how much it can control. So any design does need to start with a reasonable estimate of the amount of short term power you will need, and how much energy will be needed for a full day. And then you have to decide how much more you are willing to spend to leave room for growth in there.

You can always add more battery. It would take a crazy oversize battery to make it where a charger can't eventually charge it due to cell losses. I only have 17 KWH's of battery, but if I wanted to go off grid, I would need at least double to be safe. My Schneider XW-Pro can very easily handle over 1000 Amp Hours or 50 KWH's of battery. So there is one place where upgrading should not be an issue.

After doing my short off grid test, I did learn a bit about what happens without a grid to fall back on. I really like my Enphase iQ7 micro inverters. They are incredibly efficient, and I would go this way again for a new grid tie system for sure, and even for a hybrid like I am doing, they are quite amazing at getting the most out of the solar panels to run the loads in your home. But if I had to be off grid I think a split system makes the most sense. Use enough micro inverters to supply the day time loads. Power that is used while the sun is shining is best done by the micros. For my home, I could get away with probably just 2 to 3 KW worth of the micros. The only time I pull more than that is when my A/C compressor is running. And in an off grid situation, I would not be using my 4,500 watt power hog central A/C. I would use a few much more efficient "mini split" systems. And only cool rooms that are in use. Maybe even a water chiller zone system. They can cut the power need in half. The next part of the system is the power needed for when there is no sun. The battery needs to really be able to supply this for at least 2 days for a reliable off grid system. But don't worry about the day time load, that does help a chunk. So 2,500 watts for over 4 hours is off the table. That is 10 KWH's of the daily power taken care of by the micro inverters. On a good day, my not so efficient home with my pig A/C running a bit can get away with 30 KWH's a day. My "Average Daily Useage" on my SCE electric bill shows about 20 KWH's, but I have to add another 20 KWH's that I am getting from my solar. So 40 KWH's total in summer, using A/C. 10 from the micro inverters, so the other 30 has to come from DC coupled solar charging the batteries to get us through the night. For this, I can safely use 5 hours of sun for the calculation. 30 KWH / 5 H = 6 KW of DC solar.

My house is not a good example for going off grid, it is not very efficient at all, but if I had to... That would be my math. And it leaves some room for expansion if it falls short and has to use the generator too much. 6KW of DC solar charging 50 KWH's of LFP or NMC batteries, a 5,000 watt or more battery inverter that can do frequency shift control, and 3 kw of micro inverter solar. This get's the best of both worlds. It can be done with a Skybox, Sol-Ark, Magnum, Schneider, etc. The generator should be auto start, or have a good warning to get a manual up and running before the battery goes too low. And at least 5,000 watts of generator in case of poor solar for a few days in a row. This would require almost double the solar I have now. That will not all fit on my roof without getting very creative. Maybe putting panels on the north angled face, but having them tipped up to at least flat, if not a bit to the south... That might do the trick.
Lots of good information here for me to digest. Thanks a lot.

--
Steve
 
With Solar and Grid and Batteries you can do a hybrid inverter and take care of everything with backup. The Hybrid inverters usually have some solar inputs but pay attention to the amount of solar they can handle. You can still use micros with most of them also. You have lots of options.

Here is a link that lists most of the ones out. You can get them anywhere, but here is a nice list.

Good Luck
 
DIY powerwalls really make micro inverters look bad. Someone needs to come up with a simple solution. I would think you could plug something into the wall to charge up the batteries and connect the battery to the electrical panel like a generator. Seems simple and you'd be charging with solar when the sun is shining.
Hmm. Good idea. I knew I wanted the batteries to eventually use for some kind of backup but I also mistook them as a requirement to run my AC. Thanks.

--
Steve
 
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