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LiFeYPO Cold environment batteries

45North said:
I'm new at this but using battery power to heat up Li batteries to a working voltage doesn't seem like a workable solution to me.
To state the obvious; the primary use case for these would be northern locations in the winter time. By definition the sun is low and there is very little insolation available to the PV panels for charging the batteries in the first place. And no extra juice for the "overhead" of heating cells.
Call me old fashioned, but, No thanks! I'll stick to my SLA's for now.
I know lead-acid is not the sexy new thing but they've been sitting outdoors and starting cars up here for years and will continue to be used 'till something better comes along.
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Well, you’re somewhat correct. It’s not that you’ll need to heat regular LFPs all the time in sub zero temp, but only until they’re above 0°C. After that the charging most likely heats them “naturally”. But I agree with you in some ways, it feels stupid to use power to be able to collect power. That’s why LiFeYPO4 and LTO seems like such better options, as they can handle cold.

The biggest difference, in my opinion, between the good old lead-acid and these new ones is the ability to accept charge extremely fast. Especially in a winter solar situation where you really need all you can possibly get, or only need to run the alternator for a very short time to top it up. Sure, more expensive up front, but way cheaper down the line for every available kWh. Each to their own, just my two watts..?
 
Bob B said:
If weight isn't an issue, the Firefly batteries look promising .... Good cold performance and generally cheaper than LiFePo4 .... almost as good of cycles.

I was considering 3 of the 4V 450AH for my RV, but have decided I don't want that much weight. They are about 95 Lbs each.
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Interesting technology! I’ll have to read up some more on them. Probably not an option for me as I’m also mobile but if you’re stationary sure. But how many Ah is the E31 and the G31?! Am I blind, because I can’t seem to find it.. ?
 
Of the types of Lead Acid, Firefly is probably the best deep discharge you can get. (And most expensive)

Firefly battery specs: http://fireflyenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/12VE31-brochure-SPI-LV.pdf
1578269490986.png
There are a few other attributes that really make the firefly stand out from the rest of the Lead-Acid batteries:

* I have heard that they are far more tolerant of sitting in a partially discharged state without sustaining damage.
* I have heard that they can be discharged to 30% SOC without sustaining damage.
* I have heard their self discharge rate is less than 5%

The first two bullets imply another attribute that is really important.
One of the big problems with lead acid is that getting from 80% SOC to 100% SOC takes a long time... but you must do it to maintain the health of the battery. With the firefly you can 'live' in the 30% to 80% SOC where that batteries will pretty much take all the current you can throw at it and it is not a big deal if you don't get it to 100% SOC every time. This is not as good as LiFePO4, but a hell of a lot better than other lead-acid batteries.
 
Good points! More or less taking the positive attributes of LFP and putting them in lead-acid. But how many Ah is that battery?! Very detailed spec sheet but I can't find it... ?
 
kimsv said:
Yes, I saw those and they where clear, it was the E31 and G31 that was unclear. Still is to be honest..
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I think a typical rating would be at a 20A draw for this battery. The table shows 18A is 90 AH. At a 10A draw it would be 100AH
 
So I’ve been in contact with EV-Power.eu, they’re the European retailer for Winston LiFeYPO4.

Turns out that LYP batteries are barely better then LFP batteries for colder temperatures.

This is the answer I’ve got when asking about storage and charging temperatures for their Winston LiFeYPO4:

What is the behavior LiFePO4 battery at different temperatures?

Especially in low winter temperatures.
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1) Battery capacity

For 10°C to 40°C the battery nominal capacity is 100%. For temperatures below 10°C the internal resistance of the battery increases and as a result the total capacity decrease.

at 0°C: we estimate some 90% of available capacity.
at -20°C: we estimate some 70% of available capacity.


2) Low voltage disconnect (under load)

The discharge voltage level changes (from suggested 2.8V) with the change of temperature.

at 0°C: the low voltage level changes from 2.8V to 2.4V
at -20°C: the low voltage level changes from 2.8V to 2.0V



4) Charge and Discharge

It is possible to discharge a battery at any temperature, but it is necessary to think that with a bigger load in low temperature can the battery voltage may drop by one volt. It is necessary right to set BMS for this drop voltage.

Standard charging, we recommend at least at +5°C. The temperature under +5°C causes increases battery internal resistance and it is necessary to charge with current maximal 0,1C. Under 0°C temperature and below, we don't recommend charge a battery.

5) Some tips to operate the battery in cold climate

a) Make proper insulation of the pack so that the pack does not lose temperature to outside cold environment

b) Arrange for the pack heating (during charge). Properly insulated pack may be preheated to quite high temperature (even to 30*C) to absorb the thermal energy. This way the properly insulated pack of large capacity may stay warm for several days.

c) Arrange for the pack “defrosting”. Properly insulated pack may use some part of its energy to warm itself before or at the beginning of the operation in cold climate. Usually about 5% to 8% energy may be used to increase the temperature of the properly insulated battery pack.
Click to expand...

I guess I’m back to LTO batteries or LFP with heating pad... ?
 
kimsv said:
Interesting technology! I’ll have to read up some more on them. Probably not an option for me as I’m also mobile but if you’re stationary sure. But how many Ah is the E31 and the G31?! Am I blind, because I can’t seem to find it.. ?
Click to expand...
The E31 is no longer available. The Firefly G31 is 116Ah 12V. They also make a 4V 450Ah battery. They are heavy, but they charge quickly like li-ion and have a better temperature range. They also have excellent start up power so can be used as house batteries on marine. I also know of a few people using the 4V for off-grid use.
They are very popular with marine users - there are some videos on YouTube by Yachting magazines and such.
Lately there have been some warranty issues since they are now produced in India.I am cautiously optimistic that the warranty issues have been resolved as these have been powerhouse batteries for quite a few years now.
The Amp hour ratings on these batteries is based on an industry standard 20 hour rating.
 
Last edited:
I noticed that no one here has mentioned Silicon Dioxide (SiO2) / Lead Crystal Batteries. SiO2 Batteries have the widest temperature range of any consumer deep-cycle battery on the market. Originally developed in the 1970’s by the US military, to be a liquid-free “dry” battery that could literally be shot and not leak its contents. These went from an early-stage low output weakling to a hard hitting contender with modern nanomaterials. Silicon-dioxide (SiO2) batteries boast one of the best temperature ranges and high cycle-life of any lead-acid battery. With virtually no liquid inside to freeze or off-gas; sulfuric acid content is reduced by over 95%. The non-corrosive electrolyte is more environmentally friendly, in this 99% recyclable battery. These charge in about half the time of normal deep-cycle batteries, conserving generator fuel . These range in size from 12V 5Ah to 12V 270Ah (8D) and 6V RV/Golf Cart 260Ah.

Temperature range: -40C/F to +65C/149F Great for sub-freezing conditions to high desert heat.
Charge time: Fast 4Hrs from fully depleted. (0.25C rate)
Cycle Life: 2,800 Cycles @ 50%, 1,500 @ 80%. Can be discharged 100% and recover full capacity
Shelf-life: 2yrs without trickle-charging
Max Discharge Rate: Up to 9C (5 Secs)

Applications: Commercial, Residential, RV, Marine, materials handling equipment, Remote monitoring & relays, water-pumps, electric fencing, Golf carts, scooters, trail cams, emergency lights, UPS back-up systems.

Manufacturers include Soneil Electronics (Canada), Betta Batteries (Australia) and AE Solar (Germany).
 

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45North said:
.....snip......
Call me old fashioned, but, No thanks! I'll stick to my SLA's for now.
I know lead-acid is not the sexy new thing but they've been sitting outdoors and starting cars up here for years and will continue to be used 'till something better comes along.
Click to expand...
In extreme cold people are using heated battery blankets, block heaters, and winter fronts. With a diesel, you may need a fuel heater, too.
 
Or keep the car idling all the time. Not that extreme here, but you often see people take the battery inside when it's really cold or else you won't start in the morning. Engine block/compartment heaters are a must as well and are everywhere: you plug in the car when you arrive at work and by the time you leave, it starts without issues and you're warm inside.
 
Azimuth Shari said:
I noticed that no one here has mentioned Silicon Dioxide (SiO2) / Lead Crystal Batteries. SiO2 Batteries have the widest temperature range of any consumer deep-cycle battery on the market. Originally developed in the 1970’s by the US military, to be a liquid-free “dry” battery that could literally be shot and not leak its contents. These went from an early-stage low output weakling to a hard hitting contender with modern nanomaterials. Silicon-dioxide (SiO2) batteries boast one of the best temperature ranges and high cycle-life of any lead-acid battery. With virtually no liquid inside to freeze or off-gas; sulfuric acid content is reduced by over 95%. The non-corrosive electrolyte is more environmentally friendly, in this 99% recyclable battery. These charge in about half the time of normal deep-cycle batteries, conserving generator fuel . These range in size from 12V 5Ah to 12V 270Ah (8D) and 6V RV/Golf Cart 260Ah.

Temperature range: -40C/F to +65C/149F Great for sub-freezing conditions to high desert heat.
Charge time: Fast 4Hrs from fully depleted. (0.25C rate)
Cycle Life: 2,800 Cycles @ 50%, 1,500 @ 80%. Can be discharged 100% and recover full capacity
Shelf-life: 2yrs without trickle-charging
Max Discharge Rate: Up to 9C (5 Secs)

Applications: Commercial, Residential, RV, Marine, materials handling equipment, Remote monitoring & relays, water-pumps, electric fencing, Golf carts, scooters, trail cams, emergency lights, UPS back-up systems.

Manufacturers include Soneil Electronics (Canada), Betta Batteries (Australia) and AE Solar (Germany).
Click to expand...
Where do you buy them
 
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