I keep reading that Lithium battery prices are falling rapidly,...but Battle Born battery prices never change. Why?

gnubie said:

There's fear, but there's a lack of desire too. I'd guess that the majority of people that buy batteries are the later. They just want a device they can plonk down and say done.

There is always going to be people chasing the bottom shelf lowest possible price, and paying the price of low quality in doing so. There will always be people blindly paying top shelf price with no attention to quality, and they'll pay for that too. Then there is the discerning buyer that takes their time to find out what is good and what isn't. So long as Battleborn's sales meet the company's expectations the price will stay where it is.

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Defenestrator said:

LiFePo4 specifically hasn't seen the massive increase in volume and development that the higher-energy chemistries have, so it hasn't seen as much in terms of improvement and cost reduction. BB also started at a lower price point that basically all the "legit" suppliers. Seems like the past few months newer batteries have started to come out that match or beat BB prices, but no true competitors that I've seen. I expect something will happen to force their prices a bit lower over the next year or two, but probably not drastically.

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Dzl said:

Really? I'm new to the game, but I thought BattleBorn was just about the most expensive drop in consumer oriented lifepo4 you could buy short of maybe Victron. What do you mean by "legit suppliers"?

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PHoganDive said:

Reminds me of back in the 1950's and 60, there was a company called Heathkit that made electronic kits you'd assemble yourself. They were high quality and you could save a significant amount over store bought electronics prices be doing it yourself. I built many of them growing up back then.
Same sort of deal going on with solar stuff now.

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• Victron battery is winston cells (that are cheaper) that need external regulation and management.
• Simpliphi costs $500 more for the same Wh capacity as a battleborn.
• Lion energy is $50 cheaper than battle born, but uses cheaper cells and off the shelf bms
• Kilovault seemed good at first, but looking at the case and some complaints emailed to me, seems cheap, and relabeled
• Aliexpress drop in replacements use dirt cheap cells and bms, and no low temp cut off
• Re-lion sells same size, same feature battery for $300-400 more
• Trojan trillion is also overpriced and capacity rating figures are over exaggerated (they rate the capacity to 70%, not the typical 80%). And they are hard to find.
• Renogy battery is cheaper quality, and relabeled for 100$ less than battle born with less safety certifications

• Renogy is also not my first choice for reasons you have gone over previously, as well as two experiences of poor shipping quality.
• There are other great batteries out there for large commercial projects beyond those you touched on (see Morningstar list), but not for the typical DIYer
• After consideration and agreement with you on the others I am still left with two for the DIY battery market: Simpliphi & Kilovault (Relion is a close third for my needs and BB is wrong size). Convince me I am wrong if you like after I go thru some reasons why.
• If we are looking for the best 12v 100ah battery that is one thing...what we should be asking is which are the best batteries for our needs
• If shipping cost is a concern and avoiding freight ($200-300) then a battery around 1800wh give or take is ideal. This battery has more capacity than a 12v 100ah so perhaps only one to four would be needed in a 12v 24v 36v or 48v configuration.
• If more capacity is needed a 24v or 48v system with over 3500wh per battery might work better. When getting to this point, a large system, the price point in the 3.8kw 48v battery is much better than in smaller batteries. Also after 5 to 7 kw capacity there are other brands to consider which make single batteries this big.
• Yes! For smaller batteries BattleBorn makes a decent product but why spend money and time on connecting multiple batteries (except to save on shipping cost). If one wants to run 75amps continuously a C/2 charge/discharge rating is recommended for max cycles (this goes for most every battery out there in priciple, if not in exact max cycle numbers, so for more charge amps get the bigger sizes). Again a 150ah 12v battery would take 75amps at C/2...maybe 10,000 cycles at 80% DoD to get to 80% of battery capacity still available (or in other words after 10,000 cycles 20% of capacity is lost in ideal circumstances). Use all 150amps for charge/discharge at C1 still 5,000 cycles. So I guess the question is who is the manufacturer of this relabeled product and how much difference does the packaging make if the internals are great. Even the shape of the box is similar to BB.
• Most of my stuff is at least assembled in USA so I have a soft spot for BB and I know they are expanding their product line.
• So for 100ah 12v go BB? For bigger go Simpliphi or Kilovault? What do you think? I am open to counterpoints and later on admitting to being out geeked. Obviously BB can be used in banks...yet I prefer a single bigger battery. Sticking to 12v for this convo...but 48v or 24v is better in many ways and so batteries that cannot be combined to make 48v after one figures this out is a waste of lithium (especially if your system is over 1300 watts and you had enough foresight to make it expandable to 2000, 48v is key).
• Don't want to pay freight, need 75-110 amps continuous charging at 12v and occasionally peaks, 10,000 cycles at C/2 charge/discharge and the ability to go too C1 levels continuously on a rare occasion with marginal cycle loss, a decent warranty, cylindrical cells, components that will last as long as the cells. Essentially the battery is a capacitor in my case used to equalize voltage, with minimal backup power of 12 hours at 80 DoD and a very light load. If you want more than 12-24 hours backup consider grid-tie as your battery. I would suggest for most people grid power is still cheaper. Even a DIY is looking at over 20 cents per kwh for a cabin or RV camping (worth it in some cases).
• If I did wish to pay freight the 48v 3.8kw at $2565 is less per watt than a BB, about the same price with shipping. It also seems more robust on paper than BB.
• I should add that temperature/ humidity effect circuit boards and connections. Outback Power makes extreme condition inverters. 15 years of lifespan is an extreme condition. If you leave for a few months, turn the furnace off, and temperatures rise and fall condinsation occurs. So one could go in another direction and question, "who makes Outback style extreme condition lithium batteries?" Outback seals some of their inverters up...sort of like these batteries so it might not be as big an issue I hope.
• Great Videos. Maybe another forum has touched on this? Maybe I am missing something. Remarkable how difficult information on the detailed specs is hard to find. It is better to have at least one real competitor so we have options beyond prismatic (my impression is cylindrical is better)
• Update: I have not yet received word back from Kilovault asking whether their cells are cylindrical or prismatic--part of my comment on the difficulty in obtaining detailed specs (maybe AltE would know). Simpliphi stated in a 2019 report to NYC about fire safety that all their cells are cylindrical.

JoeHam said:

I have had great customer service from Bioenno Power, I think they are located in California. I have no affiliation with the company and although I am a newbie on this forum I am somewhat surprised I haven't seen much mention here.

I am now sold on 48v for sure and they have one of the few pre-built 48v LiFePO4 batteries I am aware of. My experience so far has only been with their 12v stuff though. Their 48v, 50Ah is $1700 so not cheap but less than 2 of the 28v, 50Ah Battleborns in series FWIW.

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