Yes. Last weekend I filled up here:
Should the US stop imports and exports of oil and refined products? Let the price rise so the frackers can get busy again?
The down side from buying Chinese goods
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Should the US stop imports and exports of oil and refined products? Let the price rise so the frackers can get busy again?
No. I am talking about physical products like the OP example. If the product contains technology, I don't know.
NPhil
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Well, that company puts out two models, one made overseas and one here. Handy, if we may safely assume that they are approximately competent, and honest, in their pricing. Another issue is how good the design really is at making the product fit for purpose. I don't know, which is why I've been thinking about this phone for a while, but not buying, yet.
NPhil
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Straw man fallacy. No one has proposed banning imported oil as a solution. In fact, the cause of the price rise is obviously the banning of domestic production projects. Your comment is ridiculously false.Yes. Last weekend I filled up here:
Should the US stop imports and exports of oil and refined products? Let the price rise so the frackers can get busy again?
NPhil
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That assertion is false. My question refers directly to your comment which uses the (commonly derogative, in many circles) term "MAGA agenda". Is that a physical product?
How can my statement be false? All I said was I was aware of fuel prices and gave an example. Are you saying I need to post a receipt?
NPhil
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I'm saying that if you purport to rebut the substance of my argument, you should do so with fact and evidence, not with straw man fallacy and obvious false suggestions that more foreign trade is the answer to price rises caused by government policy shutting down domestic production.
BTW, the petroleum industry is an obvious counter-example to assumptions (if any) that corporate greed and consumer blindness will make the return of industry to the US impossible. in fact, there is every reason to assume that the petroleum industry will produce, if allowed. Let's not assume that there are no other domestic industries ready to do that, given conditions which make it possible.
NPhil
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For example, what about lithium mining? Isn't mining, substantially, suppressed in the US not by "corporate greed" but by careless, uninformed, regulation? Mining can be a tough business. Does that mean we should all, while sipping our soy, demand that no mining in which it is possible that things which are not nice can happen be allowed in the country? Where will that end?
Abodyofscience
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I'm out of here.
BaronVerde
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Mining is not suppressed in the US. But competing interests play a role, economically, environmentally, politically. Keep in mind, 'economically' does not mean 'short sighted destructive exploitation'. Regulation is not careless or uninformed, but has to combine and integrate and find a way that fits many and looks into the future, a middle ground, a compromise. That's where it can end.
I recently read (on the USGS website) that the US has ~15000 tons of lithium in currently known deposits (there may be more), unclear if these can be mined economically and sustainably. It'll probably (have not checked because until recently solar and connected tech wasn't on my screen) be more economical to actually recycle already existing resources from fried out equipment. Most of world's lithium is mined in Australia and China.
So, let's order our batteries there at a reasonable price, and later recycle in the US (or Europe for that matter).
Maybe we can sell them back in a few decades, again for a reasonable price ;-).
I mean, if mankind still exists then.
grizzzman
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"Because lithium’s concentration in ore at Thacker Pass runs as low as two-tenths of one percent, producing one ton of the stuff for use by society entails strip mining and processing as much as 500 tons of earth. Over a single year, producing 60,000 tons of lithium at the site could mean digging up as much as 20 to 30 million tons of earth, more than the annual amount of earth dug up to produce all coal output of all but seven or eight U.S. states.
Removing the lithium from the ore is done with the industrial economy’s dissolver of choice, the notoriously corrosive and toxic sulfuric acid. The developer, Canada-based, China-backed Lithium Americas Corp., plans to acidify molten sulfur on site, trucking in the stuff from oil refineries. Hauling the material will require 75 tractor-trailer loads a day, according to Falk and Wilbert — every one of them running on fossil fuels"
Lets strip mine the land so we can drive electric cars and say we are being kind to the environment..
Removing the lithium from the ore is done with the industrial economy’s dissolver of choice, the notoriously corrosive and toxic sulfuric acid. The developer, Canada-based, China-backed Lithium Americas Corp., plans to acidify molten sulfur on site, trucking in the stuff from oil refineries. Hauling the material will require 75 tractor-trailer loads a day, according to Falk and Wilbert — every one of them running on fossil fuels"
Lets strip mine the land so we can drive electric cars and say we are being kind to the environment..
Jeez, do we even live in the same country?! That's wild, it was less than $3 a gallon last week here in TN, now it's still under $4. The most I ever paid was around $5 a gallon while Obama was doing his thing.Yes. Last weekend I filled up here:
Should the US stop imports and exports of oil and refined products? Let the price rise so the frackers can get busy again?
grizzzman
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You haven't seen anything yet........
NPhil
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I'll rebut that in the same way the "Baron" rebutted my assertion. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Either restrain the regulatory impulse to something approaching sanity, based on fact and evidence, or suffer poverty, decline, and the loss of more or less everything you take for granted. Choose wisely.
BaronVerde
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Wisodm does not limit itself to minimizing raw material exploitation cost. That is only one substep in a huge chain of value creation, which also includes but is not limited to infratsructure, logistics, environmental impact, decomissioning, recycling, societal considerations and so on. Someone must pay these costs at some point, and uncontrolled predatory exploitation (I believe that what's being advertized, but ofc I may be wrong) may raise them to exorbitant levels, including loss of property and lives. For instance still to freqeunt mining acidents that regularly happen because of mssing control, maintenance and inspection. Sometimes with grave and lasting impact for decades and centuries. That's why a regulation that tries to integrate some of these aspects and work against bribery, despotism and political arbitrarinessis is certainly needed.
And then, what happens when resources run out or become too uneconomical to extract at all, which certainly happens earlier in an uncontrolled environment ? Uncontrolled action is prone to greater losses and less efficiency, iow, it doesn't make stuff cheaper, in contrary. It leads to more inequality, as well. I mean, we're all here on the forum because we actually can afford making our own anergy, at reasonable cost.
Economy is a rather complicated conglomerate of interactions, and sometimes opinionated, for sure. Just want to say that there's more to it than might appear at first sight.
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NPhil
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Straw man fallacy: I didn't claim that minimizing raw material exploitation cost was the only wisdom. No one claimed that, because that would be silly.
Also, I don't recognize your authority to cross-examine me (for having failed to explain what we will do when some resource or other runs low, when the Earth cools, or warms, or the Sun expands, or contracts, on the way to the (predicted) heat death of the universe), or any wisdom at all in your comment's implied assumption that more regulation is the answer, unless I can prove that it is not.
I live near China (1hr flight $40 or 8hr drive), almost everything on sale is made in China.
Shipping from China is between free and $1, no import duty, longest delivery takes 14 days but normally within 7 days.
Even the apples in my local stores come from China.
Shipping from China is between free and $1, no import duty, longest delivery takes 14 days but normally within 7 days.
Even the apples in my local stores come from China.
The last US made smartphone was for Nextel, manufactured in Plantation Florida. It's been gone for a long time.
I know, because I worked there.
Personally, any technology made in China can easily be manufactured in the USA. I know this because I worked in the USA factories that used to do exactly that for computers and cell phones. We should adopt the same policies as other nations, no selling technology that doesn't have a domestic production partner. If that shoe fits a specific country, so be it.
I think it all comes down to whether or not Americans are willing to pay for domestic products, and I think the answer, generally speaking, is no.
In my personal and professional experience, people always talk about being willing to support an american-made product, but when it comes down to it, and they see a price tag of twice the amount, their wallet starts talking for them. I'm definitely guilty of that too, but my solar system would have been three or four times as much if I stuck with domestic products, and honestly, I probably wouldn't have even started the project for that amount of money.
I just did some looking around to see if I could "rebuild" my system with ONLY U.S made components, and how much it would cost. I'm having trouble finding any components that are manufactured from start to finish here in the states. Even the major brands here are using Asian labor. I'm sure there's exceptions, but I couldn't find any.
I personally believe that any sort of "ban" on products manufactured elsewhere would only open up a black market. People need to be incentivized to buy products made here, not forced. The last thing we need is another 3 letter agency kicking in doors looking for unlicensed Chinese electronics.
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
So all the people just got to learn to code is that it?
Got news for ya chief. Most don't have time, Intellect or desire to be in the service industry.
I guess they will just all die because we cant be bothered to have any manufacturing jobs..
Those MAGA people you so scorn are blue collar workers who just want what everyone wants.
A place to earn a living without have to study Tensor calculus.
Nobodybusiness
Solar Sponge.
Exactly why tariffs were invented. To make domestic products comparable to Slave labor grey market products.
Japan was as Insular as they come for 50 years.
I bought a 75amp power supply from a brand named "fat boy" products, with the understanding it was made in usa. About $400+. Opened it up, its 3 25amp chinese power supplies ganged together. Dude just makes the aluminum enclosure, ties em together with a fan, fat pot and voltage display. And isnt even competent at it. Its advertised as a battery charger too but if you leave it connected to the battery and shut it off the fan keeps running.
Its not awful and hasnt blown up. But seems kind of lame and shuts down at 67amps.
From pix on the site the guy seems to be pretty chubby so on that at least I guess he is legit.
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I don't trust Chinese specs. A recent one was a LiFePo4 BMS that got fully tested on 4 old 3.7V 18650 cells. Just to make sure cutout voltages are as expected and the balance voltages are right. This one worked pretty well.
And for something that is a bit more high-tech than regular junk always check the feedback on the internet. An example was my choice of SCC. A few MPPT-marked controllers happened to be just PWM ones. Youtube teardown or test videos resulted in getting an EPEVER. I didn't know that brand before that.
China has some good brands. Usually, a good brand stands behind its products and the quality is good. Yep, they cost more than the no-names, but the time you lose with no-names doesn't justify the cost difference in most cases.
And for something that is a bit more high-tech than regular junk always check the feedback on the internet. An example was my choice of SCC. A few MPPT-marked controllers happened to be just PWM ones. Youtube teardown or test videos resulted in getting an EPEVER. I didn't know that brand before that.
China has some good brands. Usually, a good brand stands behind its products and the quality is good. Yep, they cost more than the no-names, but the time you lose with no-names doesn't justify the cost difference in most cases.
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