diy solar

diy solar

Does Solar Really Pay Off

RV10flyer said:
Just ask them what their ROI is for that $82K truck they got sitting in the driveway with a $1300/mo payment.
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I have a truck (not quite that expensive) and IMO it has been worth every penny. I drive about $20K miles a year and use it for my ranch. So one can not just assume someone's ROI is horrible on a vehicle.

But as I've noted before, when electricity is cheap ($0.11 here, including all fees) solar does not have a good ROI. As for power outages, that is why I have a generator that can run off my house tank if need be. Even when we had the big winter blackout the other year, I did ok with just a smaller 2Kw genny. For here, IMO you get a better ROI with better insulation than putting up solar panels.

Of course I know rates will go up over time, and that is why I do have a small stand alone system that I keep adding onto. But I will probably be long dead before I ever break even on what I have already put into it.
 
Texas-Mark said:
I have a truck (not quite that expensive) and IMO it has been worth every penny. I drive about $20K miles a year and use it for my ranch. So one can not just assume someone's ROI is horrible on a vehicle.

But as I've noted before, when electricity is cheap ($0.11 here, including all fees) solar does not have a good ROI. As for power outages, that is why I have a generator that can run off my house tank if need be. Even when we had the big winter blackout the other year, I did ok with just a smaller 2Kw genny. For here, IMO you get a better ROI with better insulation than putting up solar panels.

Of course I know rates will go up over time, and that is why I do have a small stand alone system that I keep adding onto. But I will probably be long dead before I ever break even on what I have already put into it.
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Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!
 
Sanwizard said:
Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!
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I am almost to retirement and my power bill (total electric) is my meter service fee of less than $23 per month. I had the money on the bank for my install, got some tax break from US government, and my R.O.I. is just over 7 years from my June 2019 install date. Avoiding $200 or so per month (or maybe much more) on retirement income is not as foolish as some might think.
 
Sanwizard said:
Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out?
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My reason was pure financial. First 8 years was 20% return. Less now with the change of TOU but still better than money in the bank.
 
Sanwizard said:
Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!
Click to expand...
My ROI is 7 years. For me going solar was all about saving money. Electric bills are expensive. Grid tie with batteries and zero export is the cheapest and most affective way to lower the power bill. Screw the power company is what that’s doing by not giving them any power to resell.. Only thing that lowers the power bill more so is going fully offgrid. But that is the most expensive setup due to the inverters and batteries needing to be so large to accommodate the rare times when loads are higher and for surges.. and also the battery bank needs to last for many days if fully offgrid therefore tremendously adding to its size/cost..
I agree it’s silly to not have the ability of using your solar when the grids down. This is why I have a cheapo small offgrid inverter (and a spare) that uses the same battery voltage as my grid ties.. For most people power outages are rare and when they happen it’s not for long. So for most people having a small critical loads panel with only a few essential loads moved to it will do wonderfully for the short duration power outages.. and if SHTF I and most would be glad they at least have the essentials covered 24/7. Just powering the essentials 24/7 allows for a much smaller less costly battery bank.
 
Sanwizard said:
Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? ......
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My first two systems were grid tie and with the high rates in California the payback was pretty good eight years ago. My grid was pretty reliable then.
Sanwizard said:
My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill.
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I am in a new home in a more rural community with more frequent power outages. In addition the erosion of NEM benefits has made batteries a must have. Fortunately a hybrid inverter could AC couple to my previously installed GT system. I am also using it in Self Consumption Mode and only pay a minimum monthly bill. I build up credits in summer for use in winter when my heating loads are greater at night.
 
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Sanwizard said:
I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.
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I know it could be done a couple of years ago, but those numbers seem quite low today. I would think you're looking at closer to $2500-$3500 for a complete 48V system using 280ah EVE cells.
 
Sanwizard said:
Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion. Its for preparing for emergencies. That is why I think grid tie systems are just foolish. Why would you buy a solar system that is not usable when grid power is out? Silly. I just finished building my 7th 14KW battery. Each battery cost me between $1800 and $2000 with the Seplos Mason kits and 280ah EVE cells as prices changed.

My plan is to use the batteries as my primary source, and the grid as backup and power source for charging during long stretches of bad weather. Hopefully only a service charge most months for the electric bill. If the grid goes away, no problem. I will also have a natural gas / Propane generator to suppliment the grid if need be. Screw the utility companies!
Click to expand...
you got yours running already ?
 
Wet1 said:
I know it could be done a couple of years ago, but those numbers seem quite low today. I would think you're looking at closer to $2500-$3500 for a complete 48V system using 280ah EVE cells.
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I bought the Masons when they first came out, and were selling at a huge discount. That said, you can still get 280AH cells for about $100 each on Alibaba, and a JK 200amp BMS for about $175. Add in cables and a DIY box, and your at about $1900 for 14KW. Signature Solar EG4's 5KW are about $1500 each, so you would need 3 of them (15KW @ $4500) to match one DIY battery.
DIY still makes a lot of sense, but I do like the server rack metal enclosures, so thats why I went with the Seplos Mason kits. Andy at off-grid-garage youtube channel is testing them. He does not like their BMS, but the enclosures are great.
 
houseofancients said:
you got yours running already ?
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Getting there. This new house has two banks of LG panels providing 600V each going to 2008 vintage SMA inverters. I have the MPP LVX6048-WP's in their box still, as I am VERY impressed with the reliability of the SMA inverters, and having second thoughts on the AC couple ability of the MPP units and the fact they lack a large transformer for inductive loads. Ian's testing at Watts247.com showed the MPP's hitting a wall at 4500 watts per phase, which is very similar to Sol-Ark. The Sunny Islands seem to handle up to 30min of peak loads for HVAC and pool pumps, so I am leaning in that direction.

I am still unpacking boxes, and recently took a package at work, so my income is now dropping WAY down, and the Sunny Islands are expensive. All that is slowing me down a bit. Thanks for asking.
 
QAnon?! I posted a link to NPR. It's about as left as it gets.
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Now, im not trying to make enemies here but NPR is FAR from as left as it gets, and it only seems that way because media skews the perceived 'acceptable range of opinions' which is really the 'profitably publishable range of opinions', far to the right of what it actually is at ground level.

As far as science being broken, I don't know the context of the statement because i haven't read the prior post, but i'm very receptive to the vague concept of the statement. And that is why i should probably actually read the Unibomber Manifesto, right?

ruh-roh...

One time i got in trouble at high school for being in possession of something called 'the anarchist's cookbook'. Which i never read. But it wouldn't surprise me if some current-day equivalent would contain detailed instructions on how to.. dun dun dunnnn.. produce electricity off-grid. ?
 
Sanwizard said:
Getting there. This new house has two banks of LG panels providing 600V each going to 2008 vintage SMA inverters. I have the MPP LVX6048-WP's in their box still, as I am VERY impressed with the reliability of the SMA inverters, and having second thoughts on the AC couple ability of the MPP units and the fact they lack a large transformer for inductive loads. Ian's testing at Watts247.com showed the MPP's hitting a wall at 4500 watts per phase, which is very similar to Sol-Ark. The Sunny Islands seem to handle up to 30min of peak loads for HVAC and pool pumps, so I am leaning in that direction.

I am still unpacking boxes, and recently took a package at work, so my income is now dropping WAY down, and the Sunny Islands are expensive. All that is slowing me down a bit. Thanks for asking.
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This test by David Poz is one reason I am seriously considering the SMA inverters to couple with my 7 batteries and AC couple to my SMA sunny boys.

 
Sanwizard said:
Going solar is not a financial thing in my opinion.
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Whether or not it is a rational financial decision to install a solar PV system, be it grid-tied of off-grid, is entirely dependent on a range of factors specific to each location and individual household or living circumstance.

The result of those factors means the answer is actually a spectrum, all the way from you're an idiot if you don't through to you're an idiot if you do. Most are somewhere in the middle, a little on one side or the other of neutrality.

Some combination of access to suitable sun soaked space, sufficiently helpful or not too unhelpful of a regulatory environment, high enough grid tariffs and reasonable installation costs are the combination of factors needed.

If grid prices are very low where you happen to be while installation costs are high, then yup, it'll be hard to make solar PV make financial sense unless grid tariffs are extortionate.

But there are sections of the global community for whom it makes perfect sense. There's a reason one in three Australian homes has grid-tied rooftop solar PV (and it is still growing strongly), and I doubt that it would have grown to be that high if it were a silly financial decision.
 
Sanwizard said:
I bought the Masons when they first came out, and were selling at a huge discount. That said, you can still get 280AH cells for about $100 each on Alibaba, and a JK 200amp BMS for about $175. Add in cables and a DIY box, and your at about $1900 for 14KW.
Click to expand...
I guess I'll have to look again. Last time I checked, you couldn't get decent 280Ah Eve cells delivered for $100. If that's the case, I would consider building another 14kWh battery.
 
wattmatters said:
Whether or not it is a rational financial decision to install a solar PV system, be it grid-tied of off-grid, is entirely dependent on a range of factors specific to each location and individual household or living circumstance.

The result of those factors means the answer is actually a spectrum, all the way from you're an idiot if you don't through to you're an idiot if you do. Most are somewhere in the middle, a little on one side or the other of neutrality.

Some combination of access to suitable sun soaked space, sufficiently helpful or not too unhelpful of a regulatory environment, high enough grid tariffs and reasonable installation costs are the combination of factors needed.

If grid prices are very low where you happen to be while installation costs are high, then yup, it'll be hard to make solar PV make financial sense unless grid tariffs are extortionate.

But there are sections of the global community for whom it makes perfect sense. There's a reason one in three Australian homes has grid-tied rooftop solar PV (and it is still growing strongly), and I doubt that it would have grown to be that high if it were a silly financial decision.
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I agree with your points, but I still think its silly not to be able to use your solar installation when the grid goes down though. Even if there is no storage, the system should always be able to use an automatic transfer switch so you can still use your system, just like a Generac generator system.
 
Sanwizard said:
I agree with your points, but I still think its silly not to be able to use your solar installation when the grid goes down though. Even if there is no storage, the system should always be able to use an automatic transfer switch so you can still use your system, just like a Generac generator system.
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Agree that would be silly to have all that pv power just sitting there and couldn’t use it during a power outage or if SHTF. That’s why (as I said above) a small critical panel with just the essentials moved to it could be done. Simply using a small cheapo offgrid inverter that will rarely ever get used.. and keep a spare.. and yeah a generator with a lock out breaker or transfer switch is another option
 
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Sanwizard said:
I agree with your points, but I still think its silly not to be able to use your solar installation when the grid goes down though.
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But it can, provided you design it accordingly.

The reason most grid tied PV systems switch off when the grid goes down is because that's the cheapest and easiest way to conform to the (very necessary and important) grid isolation requirements for small scale generators connected to the grid.

But switching off is not the only option for confirming to those requirements - you just need to specify the solar PV set up to have the capability to operate in isolation from the grid when the grid goes down. It's just more expensive to have equipment capable of doing that, and for the vast majority of homes with grid tied PV it's just not a priority or worth the extra such capability costs.

Already the latest Fronius Gen 24 grid tied inverters have a feature to provide a battery-less backup circuit capable of supplying up to 3 kW of power, provided the PV array has enough sunshine to supply the power. But naturally that's not of much help at night, but it most certainly could be used to charge up a portable power station in the daytime.

If you want grid outage protection with a grid tied PV system, obviously a system with a battery and automated isolation equipment is the better option as it makes management of the balance between supply and demand easier. Again it's all completely doable now. There are about 100,000 grid tied systems with this capability in Australia now.
 
wattmatters said:
But it can, provided you design it accordingly.

The reason most grid tied PV systems switch off when the grid goes down is because that's the cheapest and easiest way to conform to the (very necessary and important) grid isolation requirements for small scale generators connected to the grid.

But switching off is not the only option for confirming to those requirements - you just need to specify the solar PV set up to have the capability to operate in isolation from the grid when the grid goes down. It's just more expensive to have equipment capable of doing that, and for the vast majority of homes with grid tied PV it's just not a priority or worth the extra such capability costs.

Already the latest Fronius Gen 24 grid tied inverters have a feature to provide a battery-less backup circuit capable of supplying up to 3 kW of power, provided the PV array has enough sunshine to supply the power. But naturally that's not of much help at night, but it most certainly could be used to charge up a portable power station in the daytime.

If you want grid outage protection with a grid tied PV system, obviously a system with a battery and automated isolation equipment is the better option as it makes management of the balance between supply and demand easier. Again it's all completely doable now. There are about 100,000 grid tied systems with this capability in Australia now.
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Technology is constantly improving. Many more options than there was a few years ago.. Many grid tie inverters nowadays can utilize batteries when there clouds and at night.. backfeeding into the grid is becoming less desirable for several reasons. Then it’s just a matter of getting some small offgrid inverters that utilize the sane battery voltage or getting a hybrid inverter (grid tie and offgrid) to start with
 
wattmatters said:
The reason most grid tied PV systems switch off when the grid goes down is because that's the cheapest and easiest way to conform to the (very necessary and important) grid isolation requirements for small scale generators connected to the grid.
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To say it differently, the least expensive design and the one that will have the greatest volume for manufacturers, is one that does not have to produce a 60 Hz signal. GT inverters rely on the grid signal and when it is gone they do not produce any power, so as you said no additional isolation elements are needed.
 
Vigo said:
anarchist's cookbook'
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I wish I knew where my copy was. I’m afraid to go find one online and buy it because nowadays they’d probably be monitoring and put me on a watch list or something. I’m curious, like learning things, but I’m about as far removed from ‘terrorist’ as one could get
 
To say it differently, the least expensive design and the one that will have the greatest volume for manufacturers, is one that does not have to produce a 60 Hz signal.
Click to expand...
Since i messed with car audio amplifiers long before i started messing with 'power inverters' (a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet) I have wondered about taking a big audio amplifier and playing a 60hz track through it and trying some AC appliances on it.

Maybe the people with those inverters should find a way to use YouTube as an input.. ?
 
Sanwizard said:
I bought the Masons when they first came out, and were selling at a huge discount. That said, you can still get 280AH cells for about $100 each on Alibaba, and a JK 200amp BMS for about $175. Add in cables and a DIY box, and your at about $1900 for 14KW. Signature Solar EG4's 5KW are about $1500 each, so you would need 3 of them (15KW @ $4500) to match one DIY battery.
Click to expand...

Why are most of the server rack batteries 100Ah ?

Is there any reason why they are not 280Ah ?

TIA
 
Vigo said:
Since i messed with car audio amplifiers long before i started messing with 'power inverters' (a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet) I have wondered about taking a big audio amplifier and playing a 60hz track through it and trying some AC appliances on it.

Maybe the people with those inverters should find a way to use YouTube as an input.. ?
Click to expand...

Online Tone Generator - generate pure tones of any frequency​


Its especially fun when telemarketers call.
 
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G20 said:
Why are most of the server rack batteries 100Ah ?

Is there any reason why they are not 280Ah ?

TIA
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Yup. Weight. The 200ah batteries need a few good men to lift. I built mine on a garage workbench, but needed to go to harbor freight to buy a lift to move it from the workbench to the floor. Even then, it was a pain to move it anywhere. I finally bought the expensive DeWalt shelving system that Will uses in his youtube videos to mount them. That being said, one of those 14KW beasts is almost 3x as dense as the usual 100ah batteries, so much less space for much more power.
You just need to have some buddies around if you need to move them.
 
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