Does Solar Really Pay Off

[DerpsyDoodler]

I’m too old to ever receive any ROI, don’t care anyway.
We need water, lights and refrigerators after the hurricanes.
Solar provides!

Sounds like an ROI ??

Sitting here now, it is 88°f, heat pump, pool pumps, well pump are all running off the PV and inverters.

?

 

[Repro]

I’m too old to ever receive any ROI, don’t care anyway.
We need water, lights and refrigerators after the hurricanes.
Solar provides!
Sitting here now, it is 88°f, heat pump, pool pumps, well pump are all running off the PV and inverters.

Awesome! I love it. Glad to hear that.

 

[Repro]

I didn't say it.
LOL, science did... For what it's worth:

Episode 677: The Experiment Experiment

How much of published scientific research is false? Scientists are trying to figure it out.

www.npr.org

Why Less Than 30% of Science Articles are Reproducible | JoVE

Studies show very low reproducibility for articles published in scientific journals, often as low as 10-30%. Here is a partial list: The biotech company Amgen had a team of about 100 scientists trying…

www.jove.com

The sad thing this means that Alex Jones is almost certainly more credible that '1000's of PhD's. I hate the thought, but it's true.
Without science, EVERYTHING is religion. At least the religion of our grandfathers cared whether we lived or died. Now we are just cattle.

I started the post, I am now done with this thread. This has turned too political. All I wanted was some feedback if people thought there solar installation was worth it. Thanks to those who kept to the topic of the post. See you around the forum.

 

[AndyRonLI]

I didn't say it.
LOL, science did... For what it's worth:

Episode 677: The Experiment Experiment

How much of published scientific research is false? Scientists are trying to figure it out.

www.npr.org

Why Less Than 30% of Science Articles are Reproducible | JoVE

Studies show very low reproducibility for articles published in scientific journals, often as low as 10-30%. Here is a partial list: The biotech company Amgen had a team of about 100 scientists trying…

www.jove.com

The sad thing this means that Alex Jones is almost certainly more credible that '1000's of PhD's. I hate the thought, but it's true.
Without science, EVERYTHING is religion. At least the religion of our grandfathers cared whether we lived or died. Now we are just cattle.

Enough. As an engineer with a lot of science education, the idea that that turd is more credible than my peers is an insult and just plain stupid. The OP asked about the personal economics of solar. I suppose you yahoos are going to build your own PV cells? Oh wait SCIENCE did that for you already. This constant put down of formal science and engineering education by the Q-Anon crowd is pissing me the Yuck off

 

[wattmatters]

It's too late as the thread has already been ruined but please take off-topic conversation to the Chit Chat Zone.

 

[Repro]

I have actuially had to unwatch my own posting. How pathetic.

 

[A.Justice]

This is a public forum, keeping people on topic is like herding cats; pointless, and only frustrating to you.

 

[WYtreasure]

I agree with the OP, it is worth it for so many reasons. Food in the freezer & fridge cost quite a bit to replace after a lengthy grid outage.

 

[robby]

I have actuially had to unwatch my own posting. How pathetic.

I also unwatched it.

 

[AndyRonLI]

Sorry, I had to listen to some nut telling me how the government controls he weather the other day. Its the 25th of the month and I ran out of patience on the 15th ;-)

 

[A.Justice]

Sorry, I had to listen to some nut telling me how the government controls he weather the other day. Its the 25th of the month and I ran out of patience on the 15th ;-)

LibGuides: Weather and Climate Collections: Weather Modification Project Reports

LibGuides: Weather and Climate Collections: Weather Modification Project Reports

library.noaa.gov

It's required that you report all weather modification and cloud seeding projects to the Government.

Here's the transcript from a senate subcommittee about it.

- WEATHER MODIFICATION AND S. 517, THE WEATHER MODIFICATION RESEARCH AND TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER AUTHORIZATION ACT OF 2005

It even had an operational code name in Vietnam.

Operation Popeye - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

China used weather modification during the Olympics too.

China spent millions on a shady project to control the weather ahead of the Beijing Olympics — and dozens of other countries are doing it too

At least 52 countries — including the United States — have current weather modification programs.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Without science, EVERYTHING is religion. At least the religion of our grandfathers cared whether we lived or died. Now we are just cattle.

I actually have some religious beliefs, and that first quoted sentence confuses me. Everything could never be ‘religion’ just as strongly as everything could never be fully science

definition of science is that it follows the scientific method and is thus repeatable

not really. No. Quantum mechanics is science and for certain is real yet we can’t even ‘cause’ virtually any one thing of all of quantum phenomena to happen just once never mind repeat it. Yet it is still quite real. Repeatable is a key component of the scientific method but yet there’s so much we know to be true but can’t prove it. Yet

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Without science, EVERYTHING is religion. At least the religion of our grandfathers cared whether we lived or died. Now we are just cattle.

I actually have some religious beliefs, and that first quoted sentence confuses me.

Everything could never be fully ‘religion’ just as thoroughly as everything could never be fully science. Neither, being human-documented within our limited human capacity, has the power to authenticate or discredit either. There’s things in both that are not yet known and may never be. There’s elements of each that are misused and misunderstood to such a great degree that both dichotomies when considered exclusive are declared to discredit each other by their respective small minded though highly educated evangelists.

definition of science is that it follows the scientific method and is thus repeatable

not really. No.
Quantum mechanics is science and for certain is real yet we can’t even ‘cause’ virtually any one thing of all of quantum phenomena to happen just once - never mind repeat it. Yet it is still quite real. Repeatable is a key component of the scientific method and still… there’s so much we know to be true but can’t reenact it, and so much that must be fact but we don’t know yet.

put down of formal science and engineering education by the Q-Anon crowd

How do you know they’re qanon? There’s enough stodgy science pan-handling approval to necessitate some healthy critique. In fact, that critique often focuses the lens to such a degree that the facts and truth are often revealed when the ‘errors’ are argued out and dismissed. That theories get quashed shouldn’t come as a surprise

This has turned too political. All I wanted was some feedback if people thought there solar installation was worth it. Thanks to those who kept to the topic of the post.

yes, it seems you’re correct. I participated in the diversions myself. The Greek word for the English colloquialism ‘hot and angry’ or ‘hot and bothered’ in this context is “political.”

 

[Britguy]

At this point, I largely disagree.
The value of the US Dollar is almost certainly going to depreciate 90% in the next 2 or 3 years.
Anything critical you can offset now to deal with $2000+ a month electric bills is a good idea.

Would point out pricing on most items is dependent on what the local inhabitants will/can pay.
If electricity prices go up too much, people will just use less, or demand higher wages.

Solar in Australia is becoming strange.
You can't do anything yourself, and the utility companies are remotely switching off peoples home systems when they don't want the energy.

As household solar stresses the grid, WA and South Australia will have the power to turn it off

Authorities are moving to gain more control over rooftop solar panels amid a ballooning number of installations that are threatening to overload the grid at certain times.

www.abc.net.au

 

[wattmatters]

You can't do anything yourself,

While this is largely true, there is still quite a bit you are permitted to do your self but licensed trades are necessary for the most part.

the utility companies are remotely switching off peoples home systems when they don't want the energy.

This is not.

Yes, utilities are very gradually introducing some level of control system requirements with newly installed solar PV systems to enable them to manage when an over supply of renewables into the grid threatens the stability of the grid. This is managed by the network service providers and market operator, not the generators or retailers. The NSPs and market operator are independent of the generators.

These new standards are not retrospective, are presently only in Western Australia and parts of South Australia (on a trial basis in limited districts) which are relatively small compared with the eastern seaboard grid, and it will take a long time to transition to any substantial level of management control.

Domestic rooftop solar PV is currently the only energy supply to the Australian grid which has no managed curtailment process. Every other supply to the grid has a managed curtailment requirement. Consider that in Australia in some grids domestic rooftop solar PV supply alone is now reaching 100% or more of the grid demand at times and it becomes apparent why this is a smart and necessary step.

The benefit is that with this extra control-ability the utilities will also enable people to install a lot more solar PV than is currently permitted and to have much higher export power caps than is currently permitted. It will enable far more people to have far more solar PV precisely because the grid managers will, during the few occasions each year it happens, be able to strategically curtail rooftop solar PV output. Meanwhile for the 99% of the rest of the time the grid will have far more renewable energy supply available. Winter, Summer, cloudy days, high demand periods etc. It's those late Spring mild sunny days either side of midday when this sort of curtailment is occasionally going to be required.

The alternative to this is to place severe restrictions on how much solar PV people may install, to prevent homes from being able to export excess production at all and/or to use crude grid-wide methods to deal with grid stability issues such as district wide over-voltage induced shutdowns. And as a result we'll have to burn more fossil fuels at other times of year because we have less overall solar PV available.

The introduction of a little extra grid stability management can go a long way to help reduce reliance on fossil fuels. It enables strategic renewable overcapacity to be a feature of the grid, not a bug.

 

[Britguy]

Would point out reports are they don't limit your export, but disable your generation, so you start buying from the grid.

 

[wattmatters]

Would point out reports are they don't limit your export, but disable your generation, so you start buying from the grid.

Right when grid wholesale energy costs are significantly negative. Not sure I'm seeing the down side.

And it's a whole lot better than the alternative which is having the grid go down, which in that case you are SOL because you then have no power supply at all.

Again, you'll be able to have a lot more solar for the 99+% of the time, and on a few occasions the solar grid management needs to curtail production to rebalance the grid, PV output will be restricted.

Welcome to the future of grids with high penetration of renewable solar PV. Over capacity and strategic curtailment are a sensible strategy. Negative pricing is here.

Let's look at WA over the past seven days. Down under we are approaching Winter, and are well past the Autumn equinox. Even so there are times when rooftop solar PV alone is supplying more than 50% of the state's entire grid demand:



Now fast forward to late Spring when the sun shines like there's no tomorrow and there is bugger all demand because weather conditions are mild. Perth is a super sunny place.

If the grid needs to curtail some rooftop solar PV output so it can keep operating and it means we can have a LOT more solar for the rest of the year, fine by me.

Note also the wholesale prices at the time there is an abundance of solar PV - prices are negative. Who wants to sell into a negative price market? It's also means it's a cheap time of day to buy energy. Daytime pricing will drop accordingly.

It's even more pronounced in South Australia:



Rooftop solar PV alone hit 68% of total demand at one point during this (mid-Autumn) week, the state had export to a neighbouring state to offload capacity and the price was significantly negative.

These are just two are examples from mid-Autumn. Now imagine the price of energy when the solar PV climbs to 100% of total demand at times in late Spring, and early and late Summer/early Autumn.

It would hardly be a bad time to be buying energy, and in SA you can put yourself on a wholesale cost pass through plan (like with Amber Energy or Powershop) and you'll actually get paid to consume. Turning off your solar PV system at such times would be a blessing. Indeed there are people here already doing just that, turning off their solar PV system, quickly turning on their EV chargers to full, putting the pool heater on, electric ovens, you name it.

 

[Ampster]

Would point out reports are they don't limit your export, but disable your generation, so you start buying from the grid

That would only apply to GT systems. A well designed and configured hybrid system should never be controlled by the grid operator. There is significant value in mitigating the downside risk of grid uncertainty.

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I think you took me out of context. My resounding YES!, was my answer, I was not answering for all members of this forum, and the rest of the solar using world. If you read my posting to the end, I posed the question to all with no answer. Everyone sees it differently.

You see, when is all comes down to dollars and cents, I am not looking at a ROI in a certain amount of time. I am looking to have continuing power during the increasingly unstable grid. A couple of years ago, we had an outage, we were on a camping vacation, only to return and find two fridges and a freezer with ruined food with one of the fridges broken, two sump pumps not running and a basement flooded. When the power came back on it tripped lots of breakers, and we had approx. $17,000 of damage, and our home owners insurance go up. Several of our neighbors also had damage due to the multiple attempts to get the grid back up and BIG power surges.

My goal was to install a complete and separate circuit for what I deemed critical. This circuit was to be independent and run on solar with a battery bank sufficient to last several days with little to no sun. I also wanted it to be able to run from the grid if possible. My system does exactly that. Now when we leave for a week or two, I switch my system over to grid, and it if fails, the system switches to solar/battery. If there is a huge or multiple surges, we have protection, and we have power. We have also comfortably weathered multiple outages over the past winter, and we were a refuge for family and some friends. We ran extension cords to neighbors, and the portable solar units I built have served me and others on multiple occasions.

So for me, no matter how you stir it, my answer for me is a resounding YES! I have learned so much, have provided for my family, helped friends and neighbors and obviously sparked interest as I am constantly being asked how it works. Solar has made my life so much better, and I cannot put a price on that. Maybe you can.

I agree. The independence of it is priceless.

 

[Britguy]

Although I don't think it's really worthwhile ...... my first full months 'mainly off grid' bill has arrived.
Total grid usage 48 units ...... costing a total of $6.50c ......... which is for electric showers, air-con and a little evening cooking.
(pre-solar bills were around $50/month)

And my costs were around $2,800 for 9x 330W panels, 7-8kWhr of battery storage and a 5k5 off grid inverter.
That works out at around 6 years for payback if nothing breaks (assuming a saving of $40/month) and I survive that long.