diy solar

diy solar

Does Solar Really Pay Off

Define long life please. I'm thinking 81KWH battery replacement every 7-8 years tops if you want peace of mind reliability.
My battery bank is currently about 9,000 18650 (lithium-ion) second hand cells at 90% of original capacity when tested / built up into the battery bank to reach 81kwh.

This Battery University page - https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries - has been my design/operating guide from the very beginning. Further down this page you'll see this chart:
1650765326540.png
I'm currently operating between the 75-25% SoC line (3rd one from top) and the 75-45% SoC line (2nd from the top) with average <166mah/cell and a lifetime DOD average of 36.5% .

I'm continuing to process cells / build expansion packs to expand for the 2nd line (purple) and sincerely hoping to get in the 6000+ cycle (17+ years) range and still have 85-90% of the original capacity - but I freely acknowledge this chart could be fantasy!

Today is the 1,309th cycle (3.6yrs) of operation - no loss of capacity detected so far. We'll see what happens.... :)
 
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I got the same response as the OP when we had our first power outage at night.
Next day we had two neighbors come by the driveway and they started to ask me a ton of questions.
The problem with most people is that they are only interested after an event happens and then in the coming days they lose interest.
Solar is absolutely worth it! I would not have said that a two years ago but now that the prices have dropped and the LFP batteries are affordable it makes a lot of sense.
 
that is a big difference between the states and Europe for instance.
House Efficiency and low power bills are increasingly important..
some peopleś bills have increase 200% this year and many folks are looking for ways to become less dependant on what gov/power company is trying to force them through tax wise
I lived in Germany for 26 years. Lowering costs on just about everything is a big thing. Europeans are very energy conscious and look to save every drop of gasoline to every watt of electricity, as well as being better informed and educated on environmental issues. During my life in Germany, I was introduced to solar power for the first time. As a matter of fact, I have seen technologies on power generation that I have never seen here. Farmers actually use waste from their farms to make bio-gas that run generators. High energy costs lead to finding innovative ways to save.
 
I have been asked this question way too many times: Does solar power really pay off? Especially my neighbors, they still ask if my investment and work on my solar power system pays off.

The simple answer is a resounding YES!

The answer, as with many such things, is always going to be:

It depends.

Every individual circumstance is different:
- the availability of grid power supply varies greatly
- grid power reliability is completely different in different locations
- local tariff regimes vary enormously
- grid export regulations vary a lot
- suitability of people's homes vary considerably with respect to the technology that is required to make it effective, if it can be effective at all
- not all homes have rooftops or ground suitable for solar PV
- regulatory requirements vary a lot from place to place, meaning approvals and who is permitted to perform such work varies
- people have wildly varying climates and energy use and energy use patterns
- subsidy and other incentive programs vary
- people may not expect to remain in their home for very long
- costs vary a lot from place to place, both equipment and labour

Unless and until you consider all of the above and then some, then the answer the to question will always be "it depends".

We would be pretty typical of the Australian scenario, although there are of course differences here too.

In general in Australia, provided you have a rooftop suitable for solar PV and expect to remain in your current home for more than five years, then a professionally installed grid-tied solar PV is almost definitely worth it. That's because grid tied solar PV is very cheap here (compared with the US), the tariffs make it worth while and almost universally we can export excess production for a credit. We are close to 30% of all homes having rooftop grid-tied solar PV so that should give some idea of what the general public think.

Home batteries however, from a financial benefit sense, are NOT worth it here. Not even close. They need to be one-third the current price before they start to just make sense. While installations are growing it's a tiny fraction of early adopters. Most have realised they make little financial sense.

Going off-grid here if you already have grid connection would, in most cases, be financially insane. That's really only for people deciding between paying to have a new grid connection installed or installing an off-grid system.

Outage backup is a different value case and that value depends a LOT on where you are, the nature and frequency of such outages, and what alternative energy sources you have at your disposal should they occur. In most cases here an expensive battery is not warranted for outage backup. In the cities outages are rare. I had one two hour outage in 20 years when in the city. In rural areas it is different, outages are more common as the poles and wires are more at threat and there is less redundancy. So having outage coverage is more common but expensive home battery systems are still not a common answer to that, people in rural areas just use generators. At 1/20th the cost of a home battery it's a no brainer. Some are of course prepared to pay a premium though.

Many place value on DIY projects (I did), although DIY is not common here and for most homes is not a viable option due to regulatory requirements. Anything grid-tied MUST be done by licensed electrician and have approvals from the local power distribution authority. DIY is typically more for smaller off-grid projects. Anything of substance will still need to be done by a licensed electrician.

There were some comments about whether solar PV adds value to a home. The experience here is mixed. It might but rarely is it a big selling point for realtors. For most buyers it's just not a factor, and because solar PV is so common a lot of the time a solar PV system actually devalues a home - precisely because they are old and probably need to be repaired, or removed so something better can be installed instead. Or it's an ugly installation. My brother recently moved into a place he bought and I visited the other day for the first time. His system is small, fairly old and covered with lichen. The wiring is pretty ordinary and there are other issues. It'll requires quite a bit of expense to fix or replace. The former owner was an electrician yet the wiring around the property is ridiculously awful.
 
A drum of what 55 gallons?

So you spent ~75 for three fill ups?
I lived in Germany for 26 years. Lowering costs on just about everything is a big thing. Europeans are very energy conscious and look to save every drop of gasoline to every watt of electricity, as well as being better informed and educated on environmental issues. During my life in Germany, I was introduced to solar power for the first time. As a matter of fact, I have seen technologies on power generation that I have never seen here. Farmers actually use waste from their farms to make bio-gas that run generators. High energy costs lead to finding innovative ways to save.
Many Germans with remote starts on their cars? Lol

It amazes me at even current fuel prices Americans won’t change their ways.
 
The answer, as with many such things, is always going to be:

It depends.

Every individual circumstance is different:
- the availability of grid power supply varies greatly
- grid power reliability is completely different in different locations
- local tariff regimes vary enormously
- grid export regulations vary a lot
- suitability of people's homes vary considerably with respect to the technology that is required to make it effective, if it can be effective at all
- not all homes have rooftops or ground suitable for solar PV
- regulatory requirements vary a lot from place to place, meaning approvals and who is permitted to perform such work varies
- people have wildly varying climates and energy use and energy use patterns
- subsidy and other incentive programs vary
- people may not expect to remain in their home for very long
- costs vary a lot from place to place, both equipment and labour

Unless and until you consider all of the above and then some, then the answer the to question will always be "it depends".

We would be pretty typical of the Australian scenario, although there are of course differences here too.

In general in Australia, provided you have a rooftop suitable for solar PV and expect to remain in your current home for more than five years, then a professionally installed grid-tied solar PV is almost definitely worth it. That's because grid tied solar PV is very cheap here (compared with the US), the tariffs make it worth while and almost universally we can export excess production for a credit. We are close to 30% of all homes having rooftop grid-tied solar PV so that should give some idea of what the general public think.

Home batteries however, from a financial benefit sense, are NOT worth it here. Not even close. They need to be one-third the current price before they start to just make sense. While installations are growing it's a tiny fraction of early adopters. Most have realised they make little financial sense.

Going off-grid here if you already have grid connection would, in most cases, be financially insane. That's really only for people deciding between paying to have a new grid connection installed or installing an off-grid system.

Outage backup is a different value case and that value depends a LOT on where you are, the nature and frequency of such outages, and what alternative energy sources you have at your disposal should they occur. In most cases here an expensive battery is not warranted for outage backup. In the cities outages are rare. I had one two hour outage in 20 years when in the city. In rural areas it is different, outages are more common as the poles and wires are more at threat and there is less redundancy. So having outage coverage is more common but expensive home battery systems are still not a common answer to that, people in rural areas just use generators. At 1/20th the cost of a home battery it's a no brainer. Some are of course prepared to pay a premium though.

Many place value on DIY projects (I did), although DIY is not common here and for most homes is not a viable option due to regulatory requirements. Anything grid-tied MUST be done by licensed electrician and have approvals from the local power distribution authority. DIY is typically more for smaller off-grid projects. Anything of substance will still need to be done by a licensed electrician.

There were some comments about whether solar PV adds value to a home. The experience here is mixed. It might but rarely is it a big selling point for realtors. For most buyers it's just not a factor, and because solar PV is so common a lot of the time a solar PV system actually devalues a home - precisely because they are old and probably need to be repaired, or removed so something better can be installed instead. Or it's an ugly installation. My brother recently moved into a place he bought and I visited the other day for the first time. His system is small, fairly old and covered with lichen. The wiring is pretty ordinary and there are other issues. It'll requires quite a bit of expense to fix or replace. The former owner was an electrician yet the wiring around the property is ridiculously awful.
I think you took me out of context. My resounding YES!, was my answer, I was not answering for all members of this forum, and the rest of the solar using world. If you read my posting to the end, I posed the question to all with no answer. Everyone sees it differently.

You see, when is all comes down to dollars and cents, I am not looking at a ROI in a certain amount of time. I am looking to have continuing power during the increasingly unstable grid. A couple of years ago, we had an outage, we were on a camping vacation, only to return and find two fridges and a freezer with ruined food with one of the fridges broken, two sump pumps not running and a basement flooded. When the power came back on it tripped lots of breakers, and we had approx. $17,000 of damage, and our home owners insurance go up. Several of our neighbors also had damage due to the multiple attempts to get the grid back up and BIG power surges.

My goal was to install a complete and separate circuit for what I deemed critical. This circuit was to be independent and run on solar with a battery bank sufficient to last several days with little to no sun. I also wanted it to be able to run from the grid if possible. My system does exactly that. Now when we leave for a week or two, I switch my system over to grid, and it if fails, the system switches to solar/battery. If there is a huge or multiple surges, we have protection, and we have power. We have also comfortably weathered multiple outages over the past winter, and we were a refuge for family and some friends. We ran extension cords to neighbors, and the portable solar units I built have served me and others on multiple occasions.

So for me, no matter how you stir it, my answer for me is a resounding YES! I have learned so much, have provided for my family, helped friends and neighbors and obviously sparked interest as I am constantly being asked how it works. Solar has made my life so much better, and I cannot put a price on that. Maybe you can.
 
I lived in Germany for 26 years. Lowering costs on just about everything is a big thing. Europeans are very energy conscious and look to save every drop of gasoline to every watt of electricity, as well as being better informed and educated on environmental issues. During my life in Germany, I was introduced to solar power for the first time. As a matter of fact, I have seen technologies on power generation that I have never seen here. Farmers actually use waste from their farms to make bio-gas that run generators. High energy costs lead to finding innovative ways to save.
Bio-Gas is definitely a thing at larger farms in the US.
 
A drum of what 55 gallons?

So you spent ~75 for three fill ups?

Many Germans with remote starts on their cars? Lol

It amazes me at even current fuel prices Americans won’t change their ways.
After talking to my wife's cousin in Germany today, she told us they are paying around $8 American dollars per gallon for gasoline. Electric is 0.34 cents per kilowatt plus fees and taxes. Taxes in general are high and the war in Ukraine is making things much worse. Cars with remote starters are available, however few purchase them. Idling your car is illegal due to air pollution, and is punishable with very stiff fines. The majority of automobiles are 5-6 speed standard transmissions. Automatic transmissions are a heavy cost extra that also reduces gas mileage. So things in Germany/Europe are a little different.

Also, solar power systems are grid fed in Germany. Off-grid systems require special authorization with very special circumstances. So it is rare to find one. After living in Germany, I like the freedom I have to install what I want, and use the power how I want.
 
The majority of automobiles are 5-6 speed standard transmissions. Automatic transmissions are a heavy cost extra that also reduces gas mileage.
This doesn't seem to be the case any more. At least reportedly, the mileage numbers appear to equal between the 2 now.
This is surprising because I'm pretty sure an automatic transmission is heavier than a standard. But hey, now they have CVTs, so who knows?
Automatics are definitely nicer for stop-and-go traffic.
 
Electric is 0.34 cents per kilowatt plus fees and taxes.
This is a totally different world. I'd think people would move out of cities just to be able to put up their own solar. Get internet and a work-from-home job and live the high life. (relatively speaking)
 
This doesn't seem to be the case any more. At least reportedly, the mileage numbers appear to equal between the 2 now.
This is surprising because I'm pretty sure an automatic transmission is heavier than a standard. But hey, now they have CVTs, so who knows?
Automatics are definitely nicer for stop-and-go traffic.
I suspect the EU rating system may favor manual transmissions more than the US EPA.
Well known the EU system exaggerates EV range.
 
The answer, as with many such things, is always going to be:

It depends.
At this point, I largely disagree.
The value of the US Dollar is almost certainly going to depreciate 90% in the next 2 or 3 years.
Anything critical you can offset now to deal with $2000+ a month electric bills is a good idea.

Why is it going to depreciate so much? To fight inflation in 1980, they raised the interest rate to 18%. In 2022, if they raise the interest rate to 9%, servicing the debt is going to outstrip Social Security and Medicare COMBINED.
They can't do this. The only way the Fed is going to get out of this is to print more money. The US $ is almost certainly over.
 
They can't do this. The only way the Fed is going to get out of this is to print more money. The US $ is almost certainly over.
Printing more money is not a way out- it’s a lot of what got us here.
And 18% interest didn’t rectify things, it was merely a reflection of the cost of borrowing money at one value to be paid back with lower-valued money.
 
Printing more money is not a way out- it’s a lot of what got us here.
And 18% interest didn’t rectify things, it was merely a reflection of the cost of borrowing money at one value to be paid back with lower-valued money.
I remember those days my first mortgage had a 12% interest rate. All the talking heads with no brains inside (so called experts) stated we'd never again see single digit mortgage rates. Now folks are crying in their beer rates are up to 5% I wonder what the experts are predicting now?
 
Printing more money is not a way out- it’s a lot of what got us here.
And 18% interest didn’t rectify things, it was merely a reflection of the cost of borrowing money at one value to be paid back with lower-valued money.
There is no, actual, way out of this.
The Fed is just going to print money because it will at least delay the riots.
 
Yes apparently if the current CPI remains at 8% could well see federal funds at 10% to 15% assuming history repeats.
Seems like the fed rate needs to get above inflation and stay there. Been too low for too long.

Either way solar pays and could prove quite valuable if sustained inflation persists for an extended period.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Inflation_compared_to_federal_funds_rate.jpg

Inflation_compared_to_federal_funds_rate.jpg
 
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I think you took me out of context. My resounding YES!, was my answer, I was not answering for all members of this forum, and the rest of the solar using world. If you read my posting to the end, I posed the question to all with no answer. Everyone sees it differently.
There is nothing out of context with my post.

I was providing the generalised response, which is "it depends" and outlined what it depends on.

I'm happy that your solar has been great for you and your enthusiasm for it. Our grid-tied solar PV system has been excellent for us too. My average daily electricity bills dropped as follows following installation of an 11kW grid-tied solar PV system:

Screen Shot 2022-04-25 at 1.41.27 pm.png

The system cost A$12.8k. So I'm looking at payback of less than four years. Although it's not that simple as I have also done other things to help reduce bills such as energy efficiency measures to reduce consumption. Of course reducing consumption also increases payback time for the solar PV, so how one values their solar PV is a bit subjective.

I also built an off-grid PV+battery system for outage backup. Outages are more common where I am than is typical in Australia where grid reliability standards are generally very good. I could have stayed with the generator backup which works perfectly well but wanted something the wife was happy to use. But financially, even though I did it on a tight budget using repurposed items where ever possible, it will never make financial sense. It was a fun project though. I still work on improving it, as much as a hobby as it's something genuinely useful or productive.

Many will have their pet theories about what the future holds but by and large people are crap at forecasting out five to 10 years. Even specialists who are experts in their fields get such forecasts wrong all the time so it's unlikely anyone here is going to be any better at it.
 
At this point, I largely disagree.
The value of the US Dollar is almost certainly going to depreciate 90% in the next 2 or 3 years.
Anything critical you can offset now to deal with $2000+ a month electric bills is a good idea.

Why is it going to depreciate so much? To fight inflation in 1980, they raised the interest rate to 18%. In 2022, if they raise the interest rate to 9%, servicing the debt is going to outstrip Social Security and Medicare COMBINED.
They can't do this. The only way the Fed is going to get out of this is to print more money. The US $ is almost certainly over.
I don't agree, I think your looking at it from just one side. The USD is what almost every country in the world uses for Trade and most of their reserves. Even Russia and China keep most of their reserves in USD. The reality is that China does not want Ruble's when they sell goods to Russia and Russia does not want RMB for Military equipment it sells to China. Almost 90% of the worlds trade is done in USD. This gives America a very unique position in that global devaluation of the USD hits every country in the pocket and there is no other currency in the world that other countries have confidence in right now.
 
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Even Russia and China keep most of their reserves in USD
You might want to fact check that. They have hedges in currency, sure, but Russia has some natural resources to fall back on, and China has huge, marketable stockpiles of finished goods and food supplies. Plus look up the estimates of gold they keep.

Value items such as oil, phosphorus, stable foods - and to a greater degree: gold - can be thought of as ‘fixed value’ items. The USD is deflatable as are other debt-based issued ‘currency.’

We saw this currency insecurity 2008-2011. The rising oil prices of 2007-2009 were popularized by the media as caused by ‘market speculators’ but these media “experts” neglected to recognize the basic economic reality that the price of oil was reflecting inflationary factors: the oil had a somewhat ‘fixed value’ and the dollar price was mostly a result of what buyers were expecting to have to pay in future devalued dollars to ensure their supply of raw crude.

The USD isn’t very strong when GNP is made up of nearly 50% government spending, not internal consumption and exports.

Neither Russia nor China depend on US dollar liquidity. It’s mostly a hedge.
 
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