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Hybrid Plug-In Electric Car - vs - Total Electric Car

my take is that we should hit a point where BEVs are significantly cheaper to build than PHEVs, but it is hard to know when we hit that point on battery pricing.
I took an Audi training several years ago that said they are already spending more to build the wiring in the car, than the engine and transmission combined. So it is not 'just' a battery thing.

But someone else pointed out that a catalytic converter can cost as much to build as an engine, so ditching the ICE drivetrain is not 'just' the engine/transmission either.

Why aren't we making EVs with a small engine. Size it to make enough power to drive the car at 90 mph and make it run at a single speed load point, making it as efficient as possible at that single point.
Well, the i3 REX is somewhat like that, but Mazda for a while was developing EVs with a rotary engine as a range extender which i thought was very exciting. Rotaries can't cheaply be made to be efficient or clean across the huge speed and load range required to be the 'prime mover', but they can be optimized to be VERY good at a fixed load and speed, plus they have incredible power density and low NVH compared to piston engines. Alas, they never did release one as a production vehicle. Still kinda sad about it.

I would love to have a PHEV with a Diesel Engine - the Audi/VW TDI 1.2L - 74 HP - gets amazing fuel economy at 2000 rpm - the VW Golf with that engine gets 78 MPG. Combine that with a electric drive - we would be looking at 120+ MPG
It already exists, VW XL1


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China high speed trains network is an economic disaster only surpassed by its real estate fiasco.
I have travelled in China until COVID. I have seen many of those projects and wondered when the bubble would burst. The high speed trains work well and from my perspective were reasonably priced. What was interesting was that most Chinese are already used to electric propulsion since most scooters are electric. Even the farmers bringing their produce to farmers market drive small three wheel pickups that are electric.
 
Rear wheel drive not great for where I live.

”No maintenance“ So this is not the hybrid as previously mentioned.

”No rust” What is their secret, stainless steel?
Rear wheel drive is fine when you got all weight down low. The i3 has 50:50 distribution. Many rear wheel drive vehicles you remember probably don't have much weight in the back - and those are terrible - I used have 3 series and my heavy American Pickup - that thing had no traction whatsoever.

you can buy the i3 as a BEV or as PHEV. I've opted for the version without the engine. Because I don't like Dealers- a EV I can maintain with a phone app - while for an ICE engine/car I need a whole workshop.

Everything on the i3 is either plastic, carbon or aluminum. Nothing to rust, rot etc. You can scratch the paint everywhere, nothing will happen.
 
VW never said that. Your blogger misinterpreted numbers from a Wired magazine article and did some bad math. The production XL1 was a PHEV. The claimed 260 MPGE (take special note of the "E") was based on 2/3rds of the test cycle coming from battery power.

VW did say XL1 could get 120 MPG on diesel alone, but I don't know at what speed. 120 mpg at 8.4 hp road load would be 33% efficiency. But I think that 8.4 hp is also bunk. That's the power of the original 1 cylinder engine in the prototype. The XL1 was a much different car, with a two cylinder engine and side-by-side seating instead of tandem. It probably required 11-12 hp to sustain 60 mph, putting engine efficiency near 45%.

Many parts of the world 84% of all countries Diesel is cheaper then Gasoline because it's less Energy intensive to refine, e.g. it's cheaper to produce.
They just found a way to rip you off in the US.
You're right, I shouldn't have used price to support my argument. Gas vs. diesel price depends mostly on taxes plus local supply/demand. It will settle at the roughly same price per kg in a stable, unrestricted market, but good luck finding one of those. Most countries (e.g. China, Japan, Europe, etc.) tax "consumer" gasoline more heavily than "industrial" diesel. The US is the opposite, though the difference here is only pennies per gallon.
 
Gas vs. diesel price depends mostly on taxes plus local supply/demand.
Supply and Demand should always determine the price. Doesn't change that Diesel is cheaper to produce and less energy intensive. Easier to store, doesn't evaporate, not as flammable, far superior in long-term stability. We had used diesel which was in tanks for 10 years - no problem.

Diesel is the better fuel IMHO, gas is fine when you use it right away, like in regular car- but a for a Serial Hybrid, which I got in mind which runs only a handful of times a year - Diesel is the best choice.
Should be also much easier to build a emission compliant Diesel which only runs at one speed instead of a range.
 
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90 mph is so the ICE has sufficient power to not only continue moving the car but to also be putting energy back into the batteries, like grades or towing. And I would make it so the ICE is designed to run a single speed & load point with no throttling, raising it's efficiency.

The Chevy Volt 1st gen proved this was a terrible idea.

Why not go with what's been used for 25 years? The CVT. With a CVT, you get to pick the optimal rpm for any given power setting.

It's kinda like you took at look at the most successful HEV system on the planet for the last 25 years and said... "No... the opposite of that."
 
I wouldn't call any car with a CVT successful. And the idea was to make the engine as efficient as possible. If I'm running a single speed and load I can optimize cam timing and intake and exhaust tuning improving efficiency.
 
With a CVT, you get to pick the optimal rpm for any given power setting.

It's kinda like you took at look at the most successful HEV system on the planet for the last 25 years
Which 25 year old hybrid has a CVT? The Prius has planetary gears.

CVT can't take much torque, just friction physics stuff. Sure perfect in a small light car, but not above. I drove a Subaru Justy - that thing was fun with CVT.

If I'm running a single speed and load I can optimize cam timing and intake and exhaust tuning improving efficiency.
No we are talking, you can do a lot of things with a single speed engine. Including overlapping valve timing so that the exhaust stays inside the chamber. So you can get rid of of external EGR systems. You can fine tune a turbo charger to the ideal wheel size.

Without a external EGR you can also run Direct injection without messing up your intake valves with exhaust.
 
I'm going to stick up for the Volt a bit here, both in terms of concept and implementation. I've had two of them, a first generation 2012 and a second generation 2017. My daughter now has the 2012. I got the 2017 because I wanted the longer electric range and adaptive cruise control.

Where the Volt excels above most other PHEV concepts is that it is a full fledged electric car when it has battery power and a full fledged ICE car when running on gas. By this I mean that the electric mode does not have limited speed or power compared to the engine, like the Prius does. And in ICE mode, it runs like a normal car (except you notice it doesn't have the clunkiness of shifting through gears) and has normal power and range, unlike the i3 with a range extender. With the battery full and the gas tank full, it can go over 400 miles. I like the implementation using two motors (not three) and an engine with a planetary gear set. When it needs to engage one of the clutches, it is able to speed match the friction disc before engaging, so the transmission should see minimal wear.

In terms of my use of the vehicle, I drive mostly in a city with some short interstate drives. In town, I rarely ever use gasoline. Last year I put a total of 16 gallons of gas in it and this year I put 3 gallons in it in February and 7 gallons in June. Now I'm down to half a tank. I have had the 2017 for three years now. I changed the oil when I first got it and according to the oil life meter still have 38% of my oil life left. Other than that, I have added washer fluid and fixed a flat tire. The 2012 Volt had a coolant reservoir level sensor go bad, which prevented charging of the battery. That was a pain to diagnose and fix, but GM makes the software and module programming downloads available in a way that it was cost effective to do it myself.

So the original question was PHEV or all Electric. I will probably never buy another car with an engine. However, at present I need the ability to do a 250 mile trip at the drop of a hat, even when it is 0°F and windy, in the event that my aging parents need help, and I can't afford an EV with that capability. So the Volt gives me 90% of the benefits of an EV with all of the flexibility of an ICE car.

As for the defenders of diesel engines, while you can convince me they still have a place in long haul trucking in rural places, I think they are too damaging to health to run in a city. Having a diesel bus or truck pass me when I'm riding my bicycle is noxious and choking. The pm 2.5 particles are an issue that leads to respiratory and other health problems.

Back in the 90's, I looked into what it would take to convert a car to electric and get 12 miles of range so that I could drive to work. It was possible but super expensive for a limited use vehicle. Then in 2015, I was able to buy a used car with an electric drive train that could go 38 miles on a charge, and still had an engine, for less than the cost of doing a conversion in the 90's. So I am confident that by the time I need to get my next car, there will be an all battery electric option that will meet my needs.
 
I am on my third EV since May 2011. I would skip the hybrid.
Do you have range anxiety? I started driving EVs in 2012 and I don't have range anxiety. The onlyiT people I know who have range anxiety are people who don't drive EVs.
EDIT: @hankcurt doe make a good practical case for a hybrid.
 
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The initial short range was a struggle at times early on. And was rather limiting fairly often. Yes arriving home with less than 5 miles can give a person pause. Especially in the early days with virtually no charging infrastructure. Absolutely no issue these days with 250 mile range and charging stations plentiful.

Only real anxiety was driving the LEAF back to work from the dealer at initial purchase back in May 2011. Was a 60 mile drive and still had 12 mile drive to get home and charge. Made it without issue and has not been an issue since.

And yes once I ran out close to home and could not make it up a short hill.... literally coasted into the local shopping center and had to push maybe 12' into the parking stall with a charge cord. Just don't turn it off until it is parked ready to charge.

Charging at home, priceless. Charging at work as an employee benefit, simply wonderful.
 
Volt excels above most other PHEV concepts
the Volt is good car - nice aerodynamic. If Chevy would have added a bit more battery capacity it would have been a winner.

As for the defenders of diesel engines, while you can convince me they still have a place in long haul trucking in rural places, I think they are too damaging to health to run in a city. Having a diesel bus or truck pass me when I'm riding my bicycle is noxious and choking. The pm 2.5 particles are an issue that leads to respiratory and other health problems.
fully agree, while I defend the Diesel long range - it shouldn't be running in cities. There should be trains and bikes for people and EV for delivery traffic.

Volvo is producing a full line up of Electric City trucks and you can get nice electric busses from various manufacturers.

Serial Diesel Hybrid as for long range as as stop gap until we got charging lanes on highways.
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Which 25 year old hybrid has a CVT? The Prius has planetary gears.
Prius has a CVT. It continuously varies the gear ratio between the engine and drive axle.

It's not a belt-and-pulley CVT, of course. But a CVT based on planetary gears is still a CVT. Toyota calls it an eCVT.
 
It's not a belt-and-pulley CVT, of course. But a CVT based on planetary gears is still a CVT. Toyota calls it an eCVT.
thanks, I learned something new today. I used to have Prius :)

They shouldn't call it the same acronym. Belt driven CVTs have really a bad rap.
 

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