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Sol-ark - eating their own dog food?

Robby is correct and another point must be made setting your SOC at any level will have absolutely ZERO effect on your grid usage. You do not have enough storage or panels I suspect to do what you want to do.

When your home needs power it has 3 choices Grid, PV, or stored power. The Sol Ark can’t manufacture electricity. You’re running your batteries so low you have no buffer at all. Once your batteries get to a certain point the Sol Ark is going to charge them no matter what and from wherever it finds the power to do that. So if you want no grid power used you are going to have to maintain a higher SOC in your batteries so you quit triggering the Sol Ark to raise the SOC. If you do not have adequate PV production to do this then it is grid or gen power for you. Your home loads are the rate limiting factor. If you use 60kWh then you must find a supply for 60kWh either grid, gen, or PV. Running your SOC down to zero will not replace the 60 kWh you used. In an off grid situation you must have more storage than grid tied systems. You must account for winters and cloudy short days. Days and days of low PV production or the Sol Ark will without you control try to maintain your batteries at a decent SOC. I was told by Sol Ark that if the Sol Ark sees grid power it will attempt to maintain a 40% SOC no matter what. In a grid out or off grid situation the Sol Ark will allow a much lower SOC. No sure how accurate that is but I work my batteries in a 40-100% power range and have zero issues. Your routinely working in the 5-20% range which is not good for you or your batteries but that’s what you want to do. I think you are going to continue to be very unhappy with your system until you decide to take some of the advice given.

You came here complaining about a Sol Ark inverter problem. Robby and I have given you our recommendations. However you keep blaming the equipment when your issues are completely settings related. Change the settings!! Not so sure why you’re so hell bent on keeping the settings what you have. I have given you mine and Robby will give you his. We both have zero issues. Maybe it’s time to set yours up like ours and see if it works before continuing to blame the equipment.

One final point, running your batteries in the basement all the time is definitely going to shorten their cycle life.

My final recommendation is add more storage so you’re not cycling your batteries so often and raise your min SOC. Try to hit 100% SOC once a day either from Grid or PV. Pick a profile either home or load and use similar settings as someone who has a trouble free Sol Ark. Until you do this you are going to be unhappy.
 
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Think About It said:
Well let's not celebrate yet. It's only one day. The battery should not charge from the grid regardless of what's going on. One could argue that the battery is charging from the PV, and that the grid is supplementing the load. In either case it should not happen because working mode is "load first" and grid charge is "off".
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Just because you say it’s so doesn’t make it so and you are incorrect in your understanding of the Sol Ark operation. It is currently operating as it was designed to do. Even if it’s not what you want it to do.
 
jfpetesn said:
Just because you say it’s so doesn’t make it so and you are incorrect in your understanding of the Sol Ark operation. It is currently operating as it was designed to do. Even if it’s not what you want it to do.
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I appreciate all of your knowledge, experience and expertise. It was someone that posted on this thread, perhaps you, that gave me the idea to raise my SOC to 20%. Doing so has determined the cause of the problem.

Nowhere in all the Sol-Ark documentations does it state if your battery drops below 20% that the inverter will ignore the "Grid Charge" and "Load First" settings. Thank you for pointing out what I already have discovered. I respectfully disagree with you and I consider this a bug. Sok-Ark support logged into PVView several times and looked at this problem. They told me that this should not be happening.

You suggested that I should add more batteries and panels. I'm simply trying to get the most out of my system. As mentioned previously, I was told by Dexter at Current Connected that I could safely discharge the batteries to 5%, so me setting my TOU to 15% was a reasonable value. The battery specs are:
  • Cells rated for 80% Capacity after 4000 Cycles, 100% DOD @1C Rate
    • Typical capacity at 80% DOD @.5C Rate is over 7000 Cycles
 
Think About It said:
I appreciate all of your knowledge, experience and expertise. It was someone that posted on this thread, perhaps you, that gave me the idea to raise my SOC to 20%. Doing so has determined the cause of the problem.

Nowhere in all the Sol-Ark documentations does it state if your battery drops below 20% that the inverter will ignore the "Grid Charge" and "Load First" settings. Thank you for pointing out what I already have discovered. I respectfully disagree with you and I consider this a bug. Sok-Ark support logged into PVView several times and looked at this problem. They told me that this should not be happening.
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It does not ignore them below 20%. You probably had conflicting settings in your battery setup and TOU that was causing the Inverter to pick the option that was least likely to damage your batteries. As I said using 15% and then in another setting using 20% can be problematic unless you have very good cells and BMS.

My one EG4LL will sit at 93% SOC and not budge with a 54.5V float charge.
If I raise it to 57V it will charge for 1 minute at 3-5 Amp and suddenly jump up to 100% SOC.
I can then discharge at 10 Amps for 20 minutes and it has still not reached back down to 93% SOC.
The BMS and Cells are just not that great but that is what you can expect with budget batteries. Just don't try to use small increments in SOC for the Inverters operation or you will constantly be having issues.

Think About It said:
You suggested that I should add more batteries and panels. I'm simply trying to get the most out of my system. As mentioned previously, I was told by Dexter at Current Connected that I could safely discharge the batteries to 5%, so me setting my TOU to 15% was a reasonable value. The battery specs are:
  • Cells rated for 80% Capacity after 4000 Cycles, 100% DOD @1C Rate
    • Typical capacity at 80% DOD @.5C Rate is over 7000 Cycles
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Here is a short talk on DOD and keep in mind she is talking about Automotive Grade A Cells and not Telecom batteries which is what is in most of the lower end rack mount systems sold today.
 
robby said:
It does not ignore them below 20%. You probably had conflicting settings in your battery setup and TOU that was causing the Inverter to pick the option that was least likely to damage your batteries. As I said using 15% and then in another setting using 20% can be problematic unless you have very good cells and BMS.
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I have "Battery Shutdown" at 5%, "Battery Low" at 15% and "Battery Restart" at 20%. I have not changed these. I currently have the TOU at 20% SOC.

I clearly understand the 3 battery settings and how the inverter responds to them without TOU enabled. I don't understand exactly what impact the TOU SOC% has when TOU is enabled. Right now my "Battery Restart" (20%) is the same as my TOU SOC (20%), so "Battery Low" should never be reached. I'm not sure that this is correct as my battery could oscillate between charge/discharge.

I could see how there could be a conflict if I set my "Battery Low" or "Battery Shutdown" above my TOU SOC. I have never done that.
 
robby said:
Here is a short talk on DOD and keep in mind she is talking about Automotive Grade A Cells and not Telecom batteries which is what is in most of the lower end rack mount systems sold today.
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Yep, I got it! I'm leaving the TOU SOC at 20%. Not only because it doesn't work below that level, but because there had been substantial opinions from experienced users that this is not good for the battery.
 
Think About It said:
I have "Battery Shutdown" at 5%, "Battery Low" at 15% and "Battery Restart" at 20%. I have not changed these. I currently have the TOU at 20% SOC.

I clearly understand the 3 battery settings and how the inverter responds to them without TOU enabled. I don't understand exactly what impact the TOU SOC% has when TOU is enabled. Right now my "Battery Restart" (20%) is the same as my TOU SOC (20%), so "Battery Low" should never be reached. I'm not sure that this is correct as my battery could oscillate between charge/discharge.

I could see how there could be a conflict if I set my "Battery Low" or "Battery Shutdown" above my TOU SOC. I have never done that.
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Your battery Restart Level should not be Lower than any setting you use in TOU.
When dealing with the restart and shutdown values you have no choice but to use less than 10% increments. The main thing is that the Shutdown and Restart are at least equal or greater than a 10% spread.

In My system:
Shutdown is at 10%
Battery Low is 15%
Restart is at 25% Some people use as high as 35%.

The reason for all of this is that if the battery should be drawn down by Idle consumption or something else to 10% it will not allow any TOU info to mess with the Battery until it reaches at least 25%. This is higher than the lowest number I use in my TOU which is 20%.

This stuff takes time to figure out and changing a lot of things at once is the worst way to go about it.
Change one or two things and then observe the differences it makes over 24 hours and then try something else.
It took me about 3 months to understand and tweak all the things I needed for my setup to work at it's best.
 
robby said:
The reason for all of this is that if the battery should be drawn down by Idle consumption or something else to 10% it will not allow any TOU info to mess with the Battery until it reaches at least 25%. This is higher than the lowest number I use in my TOU which is 20%.
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Great explanation!!! Thanks for that!
 
I went through and watched the Sol-Ark training webinars, available on demand via their support page. There were a few things explained in those that SHOULD be in their user manuals, but are missing. One thing you guys might get a kick out of, when they were discussing Load first vs Battery first, the explanation from the trainer was basically ‘just keep it on battery first, load first doesn’t quite work right and there could be unknown side effects.’ He said it ‘should work’ the way it seems, but it doesn’t. I think that video was about a year old, but who knows if they’ve fixed those issues by now because they don’t publish their release notes.

For me this whole thread highlights a couple important issues with Sol-Ark, 1. Their manuals and documentation need a lot of work, and 2. While they heavily tout their support department, why is it I see over and over on these forums, and in my own personal experience, that a bunch of DIYers are solving issues that Sol-Ark engineers couldn’t? They seem to just point at lackluster documentation, or give half-answers, but don’t take the time to dig down to the root of the issues and provide real solutions.
 
Ian was right all the AIO's are all the same...even the overpriced ones like Sol-Ark. They all have issues. So stop spending money on high dollar equipment.
 
cm119 said:
I went through and watched the Sol-Ark training webinars, available on demand via their support page. There were a few things explained in those that SHOULD be in their user manuals, but are missing. One thing you guys might get a kick out of, when they were discussing Load first vs Battery first, the explanation from the trainer was basically ‘just keep it on battery first, load first doesn’t quite work right and there could be unknown side effects.’ He said it ‘should work’ the way it seems, but it doesn’t. I think that video was about a year old, but who knows if they’ve fixed those issues by now because they don’t publish their release notes.

For me this whole thread highlights a couple important issues with Sol-Ark, 1. Their manuals and documentation need a lot of work, and 2. While they heavily tout their support department, why is it I see over and over on these forums, and in my own personal experience, that a bunch of DIYers are solving issues that Sol-Ark engineers couldn’t? They seem to just point at lackluster documentation, or give half-answers, but don’t take the time to dig down to the root of the issues and provide real solutions.
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I disagree Sol Ark has responded timely to every question I had before and after purchase. What I think we see in these forums are those that either do not understand what Sol Ark is saying and those that think they can make it do what they want it to do and when they can’t they head over here to complain about it. Are there some issues…yes but I found out about those issues prior to purchase and made a decision to buy Sol Ark because despite those it’s still the most flexible inverter currently on the market. We hear ad nauseam it’s defective, it’s over priced, etc but by and large at least 90% of the issues are self inflicted. If you have a defective unit I’m right there with you but I’m tired of those that come on here to moan and groan and when advice is asked for and given they still continue down the road they came in on. I just cannot help someone that refuses to even consider we just might know what we are talking about. Some of these people don’t really seem to want it to work because then they couldn’t complain about anything.

Sol Ark support has always been my first stop and if I had an issue this forum wouldn’t be my first stop anyway. I always consult the experts first. If I needed help diagnosing an odd ball problem I might bounce it off those on here. I paid for tech support and why wouldn’t I use it?

I will 100% agree the manual is horrible.

As to limited home vs load I think limited to home is 10 times more flexible than limited to load. Load first vs Battery first is probably a wash but I use battery first myself. There are several small settings that take time to get it functioning as one needs but it’s absolutely ridiculous to come on here and start ranting about all the perceived defects. It operates as it operates usually and if there they operate in a way unacceptable to you then why did you buy it in the first place. We had someone complaining that it didn’t default to pass through when off or malfunctioning. Well it was designed that way for safety but this person decided it was a design flaw and should be changed immediately. I spend a lot of time on here trying to help those that have questions and suggestions. I certainly resent those that come here guns blazing when their issues are completely of their own making. I was once a newby too so I lurked and listened until I found the information I needed made some changes until I got my system operating the way I wanted and then shared my experience so others didn’t have to make the same mistakes I did.
 
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nc73 said:
Ian was right all the AIO's are all the same...even the overpriced ones like Sol-Ark. They all have issues. So stop spending money on high dollar equipment.
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I have an AIO no issues and love the way it functions. Money well spent in my book.
 
nc73 said:
So stop spending money on high dollar equipment.
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Spending money? I had an Outback Radian and to get the features I wanted I was going to have to spend more than the cost of an Outback Skybox. Five years later I moved from the the Skybox to get the additional features I was not getting with the Skybox. Everyone is different and I am getting value for my money. I am not saying that everyone should buy a Skybox or a SolArk but for those readers that want similar features as me, those may be good choices.
 
cm119 said:
I went through and watched the Sol-Ark training webinars, available on demand via their support page. There were a few things explained in those that SHOULD be in their user manuals, but are missing. One thing you guys might get a kick out of, when they were discussing Load first vs Battery first, the explanation from the trainer was basically ‘just keep it on battery first, load first doesn’t quite work right and there could be unknown side effects.’ He said it ‘should work’ the way it seems, but it doesn’t. I think that video was about a year old, but who knows if they’ve fixed those issues by now because they don’t publish their release notes.

For me this whole thread highlights a couple important issues with Sol-Ark, 1. Their manuals and documentation need a lot of work, and 2. While they heavily tout their support department, why is it I see over and over on these forums, and in my own personal experience, that a bunch of DIYers are solving issues that Sol-Ark engineers couldn’t? They seem to just point at lackluster documentation, or give half-answers, but don’t take the time to dig down to the root of the issues and provide real solutions.
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The Sol-Ark business model relies heavily on knowledgeable installers and customer support via phone, or customers allowing them to log into the inverter and find and fix the issues. It does not revolve around reading manuals or offering forum-based support.
Most companies don't do customer support over a forum, as it usually leads to more problems than it solves. Signature Solar needs the forum to make sales, but having their dirty laundry out for everyone to see isn't good for their long-term business.

People may not be aware that Sol-Ark has installer classes, from basic to technician level. This tech class teaches installers how to locate problems inside the unit and how to replace boards on-site. This level of service can eliminate long wait times and the costs of shipping a unit back and forth.

If we are looking at the big picture, it's hard for some people on this forum to accept that DIY solar people are only about 1% of the market. The other 99% of people don't want to read up or learn about solar, most are scared shitless when it comes to electricity. So far out of 14-15 people I have met with Solar I am the only one who installed my own system. The vast majority just shelled out the $35K or more for a complete system with installation.
That is the market Sol-Ark is geared towards, and the fact that it's easy to install is not because it's aimed at DIYers, but it is that way so that installers can do the job quickly and move onto the next one. That's why installers love Sol-Ark.

I agree that the manuals need work and any videos older than two months should be taken with a grain of salt. Sol-Ark is always fixing small issues or adding little features.

If you have an issue and you call Sol-Ark there is a very high probability that they will solve that issue very quickly on the phone.
If it is not solved then give them permission to Log in and monitor your system. They will do changes and log in at intervals during the day to check that it is working as it is supposed to.
 
robby said:
If you have an issue and you call Sol-Ark there is a very high probability that they will solve that issue very quickly on the phone.
If it is not solved then give them permission to Log in and monitor your system. They will do changes and log in at intervals during the day to check that it is working as it is supposed to.
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This is consistent with my experience.
 
cm119 said:
I went through and watched the Sol-Ark training webinars, available on demand via their support page. There were a few things explained in those that SHOULD be in their user manuals, but are missing. One thing you guys might get a kick out of, when they were discussing Load first vs Battery first, the explanation from the trainer was basically ‘just keep it on battery first, load first doesn’t quite work right and there could be unknown side effects.’ He said it ‘should work’ the way it seems, but it doesn’t. I think that video was about a year old, but who knows if they’ve fixed those issues by now because they don’t publish their release notes.

For me this whole thread highlights a couple important issues with Sol-Ark, 1. Their manuals and documentation need a lot of work, and 2. While they heavily tout their support department, why is it I see over and over on these forums, and in my own personal experience, that a bunch of DIYers are solving issues that Sol-Ark engineers couldn’t? They seem to just point at lackluster documentation, or give half-answers, but don’t take the time to dig down to the root of the issues and provide real solutions.
Click to expand...
I think you are spot on. I watched every Sol-Ark video and read every manual prior to purchasing my unit. I also remember the mention that "Load first" was experimental. I've mentioned I'm using it to support several times and then never said it's still experimental or not to use it.

Prior to my purchase, I called Sol-Ark support several times in September and October with questions regarding my use case. The support was excellent except for the fact that they failed to mention that the generator would not operate for my use case. They did tell me that the generator would not work at all without a battery installed and explained why. I purchased my unit in late October and installed it in November. Before calling for support, I researched my issues, watched every video and read every resource available to me. Much information is not available in any resource or is poorly explained. I tried many configuration changes and testing to see if I could resolve issues myself. It appears that Sol-Ark hired a number of new support reps recently. I can't tell you how many times I have received conflicting information from them causing me to question whether anything that I'm told is accurate. Finally, I reached senior support and management where I received valid answers to my issues. Unfortunately, they haven't responded to me with specific timeframes as to when and how they are going to resolve the Revenue Grade Metering and the Generator issue. I never asked the question about Revenue Grade Metering prior to purchase and I incorrectly assumed that I could use a third party meter. Their tech support should have informed me about this prior to my purchase.

When I saw this thread it struck a nerve and decided to post my experiences. I did this primarily so that others would be aware of what to expect in terms of support and challenges. I do believe that Sol-Ark will eventually respond and resolve my issues.

You are also correct that the DIY community here is frequently more knowledgeable than Sol-Ark support. I am very gratefully for that and am happy to assist others in the community if I have knowledge that can help them.
 
Llaves said:
No, TOU works much like the more general Gen Charge parameter in that you specify the threshold at which charging starts - the SoC has to have dropped *below* the threshold, otherwise nothing happens. So for your example, the 5pm slot has two parameters - start and stop. You set the start to 25% just like you would the generic Gen Start SoC. But you also set a stop parameter, say 50%, which you can't do for the Gen Start setting. So, in your example, if start is 25% and end is 50%, then as long as PV has brought the charge above 25% when 5pm rolls around, the generator is not started, even if the battery is below 50%.
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I just confirmed that what I was saying works.

If under Battery Setup you have the Gen Charge box checked and set the Amperage to lets say 120A and leave the default Start to 30% SOC.

Then go into TOU and set lets say 05:00PM to 50% and check the Gen Charge Box next to it, the generator will turn on at 5pm if the batteries are below 50% and keep on charging it until it gets to 50% or it hits a next TOU slot that does not have generator charging ticked.

So a real world TOU case would be

05:00PM 50% Gen charge checked.
07:00PM 20% Gen Charge NOT checked.

So if the battery is at 35% at 5pm the generator will kick on and start charging the battery. If at 6pm the Battery reaches 50% the Generator will turn off.
No mater what the SOC is it will turn off the Generator at 7PM and start using the battery to power the house until it reaches down to 20% SOC.

All these values need to be tweaked depending on how fast you know that your Generator can charge your sized battery bank from a low SOC to 50% or whatever SOC is your target and then setting a next TOU slot just to make sure it is not making noise late at night.

That second TOU slot is optional but you do need it if you want it to drain the batteries down to 20% at night without restarting the generator.
Without an unchecked Gen box in the time line the Generator will restart every time the battery drops below 50% again.

BTW I think 90% is the limit that the batteries can be charged up to using the Generator.
I think this has something to do with leaving some dump capacity for any AC coupled panels.
 
robby said:
BTW I think 90% is the limit that the batteries can be charged up to using the Generator.
I think this has something to do with leaving some dump capacity for any AC coupled panels.
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With TOU disabled, once it hits Gen Start SOC, it will charge back up to 95%. With TOU enabled, it charges to either A) the set TOU SOC with charge enaled, B) stops charging completely if it hits the next time slot with Charge disabled (same as your test results), or C) 95% (I suppose).

1674694758475.png
 
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Can someone confirm a fairly related question:

Is it normal for a Sol-ark 12K that is Off-Grid/ no Grid Input going into the Grid Breaker, to show small Voltage readings on the GEN section of the onboard Display.

Likewise also showing small AC Voltage on L1 and L2?

Im fairly certain this began right after the last update dongle I installed and that I called and asked about it etc... otherwise I may need to start looking for a Ground Loop coming from the array?

Since its doing it on both the GEN section and the Grid section this seems like it was part of the firmware/ called something like "Polling" etc.... but since the L1 and L2 are showing different Voltages it still gives me cause for concern
 

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Gringo1 said:
Can someone confirm a fairly related question:

Is it normal for a Sol-ark 12K that is Off-Grid/ no Grid Input going into the Grid Breaker, to show small Voltage readings on the GEN section of the onboard Display.

Likewise also showing small AC Voltage on L1 and L2?

Im fairly certain this began right after the last update dongle I installed and that I called and asked about it etc... otherwise I may need to start looking for a Ground Loop coming from the array?

Since its doing it on both the GEN section and the Grid section this seems like it was part of the firmware/ called something like "Polling" etc.... but since the L1 and L2 are showing different Voltages it still gives me cause for concern
Click to expand...
I would not worry about it.
The accuracy of the CT's both internal and external are not that precise at low voltages, plus they can also pick up parasitic voltages.
It could be a firmware update change but I doubt it. They are constantly doing little changes and if they do not work properly they remove or improve them in the next update.
 
cm119 said:
With TOU disabled, once it hits Gen Start SOC, it will charge back up to 95%. With TOU enabled, it charges to either A) the set TOU SOC with charge enaled, B) stops charging completely if it hits the next time slot with Charge disabled (same as your test results), or C) 95% (I suppose).

View attachment 131527
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If that is the case then just set the Gen Start at 10% or some low number that you will not reach during normal operation.
 
cm119 said:
With TOU disabled, once it hits Gen Start SOC, it will charge back up to 95%. With TOU enabled, it charges to either A) the set TOU SOC with charge enaled, B) stops charging completely if it hits the next time slot with Charge disabled (same as your test results), or C) 95% (I suppose).
Click to expand...

The one time my system reached Gen Start SoC, it charged to 100%. No idea why -
1674704815355.png
 
Llaves said:
The one time my system reached Gen Start SoC, it charged to 100%. No idea why -
View attachment 131539
Click to expand...
IMHO The whole SOC thing is a bit unpredictable when you get past the 90% point. Sometimes it climbs up in a linear fashion and sometimes it just jumps up.
I have had my EG4LL stuck at 94% for a long time and then suddenly one or two minutes more of charge and hits 100%.
 
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