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Is it possible to protect your Solar System against EMP?

Hey back to the original topic, if I may, that EMP protection question:
Are the LiFePO4 Cells at risk, or just the BMS's attached to them? ie if I stash away some spare BMS's in protected box as suggested does this provide any measure of back up or are the cells themselves going to be damaged?
 
Hey back to the original topic, if I may, that EMP protection question:
Are the LiFePO4 Cells at risk, or just the BMS's attached to them? ie if I stash away some spare BMS's in protected box as suggested does this provide any measure of back up or are the cells themselves going to be damaged?
Depends on your proximity to the blast. Not to mention, when things go hot, there may be another one 3 (hours, days, weeks) later. Whatchagonnado?
 
Hey back to the original topic, if I may, that EMP protection question:
Are the LiFePO4 Cells at risk, or just the BMS's attached to them? ie if I stash away some spare BMS's in protected box as suggested does this provide any measure of back up or are the cells themselves going to be damaged?
Just the BMS.. Batteries are not at risk.

I keep a spare BMS as well.
 
ok, so a spare MPP 6048 is doable for us, and will not take up much space. The 6048 (Unlike the 6548) will make 120 & 240 with just the one unit, so this is a pretty good backup for smaller loads. I know one unit can start up my big fridge and my well pump, just not at the exact same time.
okay so Inverter spare, BMS's spare, that covers everything but the PV panels.
I am feeling the only thing we can do is have spare PV panels wrapped and protected, stored out of harms way, is there any benefit to having spare diodes for the roof top PV or is this not going to "fix" them after an EMP?
 
ok, so a spare MPP 6048 is doable for us, and will not take up much space. The 6048 (Unlike the 6548) will make 120 & 240 with just the one unit, so this is a pretty good backup for smaller loads. I know one unit can start up my big fridge and my well pump, just not at the exact same time.
okay so Inverter spare, BMS's spare, that covers everything but the PV panels.
I am feeling the only thing we can do is have spare PV panels wrapped and protected, stored out of harms way, is there any benefit to having spare diodes for the roof top PV or is this not going to "fix" them after an EMP?
If you consider your inverter and BMS to be critical, make sure they are behind at least two layers of Faraday shielding. Mine are behind three, which is probably overkill.

As for the panels.. There's a bit of controversy and uncertainty there. It is generally thought that a panel that is not being used (sitting on a shelf) will not be harmed, and panels that are in use, will still put out at least 1/2 their rated power. This line of thought is based upon lab testing with human generated EMP signals.
Since real testing has not been done because it is not practical, I just keep a pallet of panels wrapped up in my basement.. They're sitting on a wood platform that has heavy duty swivel castors so I can move it around if needed.

Spare diodes? Doesn't your inverter have all that built into it?
 
Spare diodes?
My assumption was the damage to the PV panels would be the blocking diodes in each panel, as the rest of the panel is glass/wire/silicon and I just assumed pretty robust. however I know zero about how an EMP damages a PV panel. shot in the dark.
If the PV main disconnects were shut down, would the panels on a roof be less likely to be damaged I wonder.
 
Yeah, that doesn't seem to be working for some of the big subjects like the right to abortion or the right to bear arms.
I said harder not fire proof
Up here the pmo just signs an order and poof your not shooting coyotes with your mini14 it’s banned

Your courts are stacked that’s a problem
It pains me to say this but the list of appointees should be made by the bar association and the politicians rubber stamping that.
Something at any rate
Not an election but some sort of qualified selection
 
My assumption was the damage to the PV panels would be the blocking diodes in each panel, as the rest of the panel is glass/wire/silicon and I just assumed pretty robust. however I know zero about how an EMP damages a PV panel. shot in the dark.
If the PV main disconnects were shut down, would the panels on a roof be less likely to be damaged I wonder.

The damage is to the diodes is in the panel.. That's all solar panels are, a bunch of diodes that work exactly the same way any light emitting diode works except they are configured a bit differently to be efficient at absorbing photons and emitting electrons instead of absorbing electrons and emitting photos like normal LEDs.

So it is these diodes that are damaged. The reason they tend to survive is because (as I understand it), of the configuration change that makes them solar diodes instead of light emitters. They're designed for high voltage, they are insulated against high voltage, and they are basically all grouped together in a way that allows the outside ones to be damaged while protecting the inside junctions.

Well.. that's how I understand it anyhow. I never did a lot of research into the panels.

Just assume they're going to get zapped and you'll need to replace them.

One thing you can do to help is to install high saturation ferrite cores on all your DC lines. The ferrite core will be useless most of the time, but in the event of a high voltage spike, they will absorb some of that energy that couples into the DC wiring instead of allowing it to flow into your inverter or panels. Key word here is "some".. they should be considered helpers, not prevention.

I do not have them on my system.. They're not very expensive, but when you need like 50 of them, it adds up. I choose to put the money into spare panels protected by a cage that I know will protect my investment.

Here's the problem no one talks about because information is kind of scarce. All the science and testing we have is based on the Starfish Prime tests and the Soviet tests. Those were normal nuclear weapons. The US, Russia, and China, all have the ability to create a Super EMP weapon. What's the difference? A normal fission bomb detonated 250 miles up can create an EMP with the potential for around 50,000 Volts per meter of conductive surface area. Lets do some math.. There's a 100 centimeters in a meter, so 50,000 divided by 100 = 500 volts per centimeter or 50 volts per millimeter. Now imagine your computer's motherboard with all those wire trace paths, and imagine 10,000 volts traveling into a transistor designed for 1.2 volts.. POP.. and the smoke leaks out.

A single layer 45db Faraday cage will attenuate any signal by a factor of 100.. so that 50,000 volts now becomes 500 volts per meter. Which works out to 5 volts per centimeter. Your 1.2 volt transistor has a chance to live now because 5 volts doesn't arc across much of anything.

So here's the problem.. A super EMP weapon can generate up to 200,000 volts per meter. They do this by replacing the neutron reflector (called a Tamper) with a material that is less reflective to neutrons and gamma. I was told they also change the shape of the core material. This results in a bomb with a far smaller yield (smaller bang), but with 10 to 20 times more gamma emissions, and it is the gamma that causes the Compton scattering which then turns into an EMP.

Now rerun that math using 200,000 and you'll see why two layers is important and three layers is better.

At 200,000 volts, if you're touching something metal and grounded when it happens, you're going to feel it like a severe static shock on a dry day.
 
I said harder not fire proof
Up here the pmo just signs an order and poof your not shooting coyotes with your mini14 it’s banned

Your courts are stacked that’s a problem
It pains me to say this but the list of appointees should be made by the bar association and the politicians rubber stamping that.
Something at any rate
Not an election but some sort of qualified selection
If you ask me, all laws that affect individuals should need to be approved via a vote by the people.

There should also be a law that says any rep that sponsors, signs, or enacts a bill into law that later gets thrown out as being unconstitutional, shall be removed from their office, forfeit their benefits, and be banned from running for public office again.
 
Shielding electronics and related parts

Yellow Onan j range I have never seen one built to this spec but I am told in the 60s when built they used a magneto instead of a points battery ignition and the magneciter was replaced with saturated pole type

What was in a standard J range that an emp could damage?
Pretty tough machine just a handful of diodes in the magneciter and points you might think is pretty impervious to all things but apparently not so I guess
Any car of that era or today would not have an electrical system as good as a standard j range
By that measure I would say your buggered unless your in a vault with very good shielding

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I have a Kohler electric plant it’s military built to a Canadian spec with a fully shielded a phelon ignition
All electro mechanical but that’s not sure bet since diodes were not a common thing before 1960
 
An emp or solar flare will do the most damage to things with long coils of wire traces on a board
These act like an antenna collecting the energy from a pulse

Solid state devices semi conductors tend to conduct in one direction and block current flow on the other
This means they will block or try to block current flow in one direction as the magnetic flux from the pulse induces a voltage, voltage causes current and will rise high enough to force it way against the diode and low it up

Mag amps are safe from this but the diodes that increase their gain are not
So they will fail
Tubes have nothing inside likely to be harmed
Maybe the heaters but that’s pretty unlikely

Lead acid batteries not connect to anything will probably be fine

Anything with a high resistance to the flow of current might get be damaged if that current flow happens
A power line might have so much current induced it if it’s burnt same for a transformer or generator that’s forced into saturation by a pulse unless it’s disconnected before hand

A solar cell is a semi conductor
It’s very hard to guess how it will react but if there are a lot of them connected together with a lot of wire and related charge controller inverter power system components connected together the risk is higher than one sitting alone on a roof not connected

S300 radars like the kind used in Ukraine used a lot of tube technology because on a nuclear battlefield they would be more survivable than transistor technology.
Take take with a grain of salt, might be older systems I read that on the internet
Never the less a lot of countries kept tube communications and radars in service far longer than civilian operators to ensure survivability of the systems
 
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Is this assuming the batteries are in storage? Or are you saying the equipment failure upstream will protect them?
Doesn't matter what the batteries are doing, they are not affected by EMP. Batteries do not contain sensitive transistors.

However, the BMS most certainly can be affected by the EMP, and the damaged BMS could certainly cause damage to the battery if connected during an EMP or after an EMP.

Obviously, any damaged BMS can also damage the battery.

But batteries themselves, regardless of chemistry, are not affected by an electromagnetic pulse.
 
An emp or solar flare will do the most damage to things with long coils of wire traces on a board
These act like an antenna collecting the energy from a pulse
A nuclear EMP damages electronics.
Solar flares, which shouldn't even be called an EMP, do not affect small items like transistors unless those transistors are connected to very long lengths of wire, like wire measured in yards and meters.

A nuclear EMP is a short pulse measured in nanoseconds, but in those few nanoseconds, the pulse can rise to 50,000 volts per meter of conductive surface or more, which will certainly fry electronics. Its more like a static shock, which is really really bad for electronics..

A solar EMP is a long pulse (more of a wave) measured in minutes and hours, but the voltage rise is small in the 1 or 2 volts per meter range... that's a far cry from 50,000 of a nuclear emp. That one or two volts per meter isn't much, especially for a computer board measuring centimeters.. it really doesn't affect small electronics. But what it does do is couple into the power grid lines which are thousands upon thousands of kilometers long and that 1 or 2 volts adds up fast with those distances.
Because the solar EMP lasts for so long, the increase in voltage tends to heat things up. Go ahead and try it with your toaster.. Increase the voltage from 120 volts to about 200 and watch what happens to it. This is why the transformers catch on fire and the power line wires melt.

Some more information on the differences.
Nuclear EMP is generated when gamma rays from the bomb strip electrons from their atoms. Those electrons then follow the magnetic field lines of the Earth to ground and will couple into anything in the way when they do. This "effect" of electron flow only lasts for a very short time but it all happens at once, which creates a huge voltage spike and kills delicate electronics.

Solar EMP is an entirely different animal.
When the sun releases a coronal mass ejection towards the earth, billions of tons of material collide with our planet. But our planet has an electromagnetic field surrounding it. This field diverts the solar particles around our planet. If it didn't, we'd all be dead a long time ago. The problem is that if the coronal mass ejection (CME) is big enough, the particles colliding with our magnetic field cause the field to deform. It's a lot like squeezing a balloon full of air. Wherever you squeeze, the balloon stretches somewhere else. The same thing happens to the Earth's electromagnetic field. The stream of solar particles compresses the field on the side facing the sun and causes it to stretch out on the night side. When the solar particles have passed, the electromagnetic field bounces back into place.

The problem is, our planet is covered with crisscrossing power grid lines.. So what happens when you move a magnetic field in the presence of conductor? That is what causes a solar EMP, and why it doesn't really affect computers.. unless of course those computers are connected to the grid.
But even if your computer is connected to the grid, the computer is likely to still survive.. it is the power supply that is going to be damaged as your normal 120 volts becomes 300 or 400 volts..

Of course if you're using your toaster something very different will happen as the toaster elements go from 800 or 1200 degrees to 3000 degrees, burn out, create a shower of sparks, and hopefully nothing is near the toaster that is combustible.

You can not stop a nuclear EMP without a Faraday cage.. You CAN stop a solar EMP if you know it's coming and you're willing (or able) to disconnect everything before it hits.
 
Very informative
Do you remember when Elon Musk launched a string of Star Link satellites and before they had a chance to climb up into a higher orbit we got hit with a medium sized CME? His satellites were all "pushed" into a lower orbit by the particles from the sun, causing them to deorbit and burn up.

 
You know I work with a physicist ( no I could not even make that up lol ) job doesn’t pay so he came work with us in maintenance dept

He often explains a lot of this stuff in dizzying detail if you ask
I’ll ask some pointed questions next time i see him
 
However, the BMS most certainly can be affected by the EMP, and the damaged BMS could certainly cause damage to the battery if connected during an EMP or after an EMP.

Obviously, any damaged BMS can also damage the battery.
BMS has relatively small levers to pull. SCC has large levers.

In someone's EMP related testing video (probably SolArk), they described some brand SCC failing the test, others seeming to work. But no longer regulating voltage, so would kill the batteries.

Most of their testing involved electronics in a chamber (higher frequencies). That was the certified lab stuff they talked about.
Some in-house testing involved conducted immunity/survivability. That's where the PV array or grid connection's pickup of EMP comes in.


A nuclear EMP is a short pulse measured in nanoseconds, but in those few nanoseconds, the pulse can rise to 50,000 volts per meter of conductive surface or more, which will certainly fry electronics. Its more like a static shock, which is really really bad for electronics..

Nanoseconds to seconds. It is the seconds, sub-Hz, which are a problem for power lines.
Wavelengths of a centimeter or a meter would hit a power line in both polarities over distance, cancelling itself. Optimum antenna is 1/4 wave if open at one end, 1/2 wave if connected both ends.
The very low frequency drives a few amps, which would saturate transformers. The fact power lines "twist" should reduce the effect.


The problem is, our planet is covered with crisscrossing power grid lines.. So what happens when you move a magnetic field in the presence of conductor? That is what causes a solar EMP, and why it doesn't really affect computers.. unless of course those computers are connected to the grid.
But even if your computer is connected to the grid, the computer is likely to still survive.. it is the power supply that is going to be damaged as your normal 120 volts becomes 300 or 400 volts..

Not sure what the transient on high tension lines will couple through to your 120V service. And then there is however much your local overhead wires pick up directly.

This is where some degree of surge arrestors may help. Maybe those Delta arrestors will finally trigger? :ROFLMAO:

Many consumer vehicles tested with EMP. Generally stalled, but restarted. Just one needed repair, the ECU failed.

 
Many consumer vehicles tested with EMP. Generally stalled, but restarted. Just one needed repair, the ECU failed.


Observation to consider regarding your linked article:

The reason most of those vehicles weren't damaged is because they weren't allowed to damage them. I think your article is talking about the testing done at Sandia labs. If they damaged a vehicle, they had to fix them out of their own budget.. So with that in mind, they just slowly ramped up each test until something happened and then stopped.
Their testing was basically limited to figuring out how much of a spike it would take to cause a behavioral change in the car's operation. Go ahead and try to find the results of that testing and look at the parameters.. I've never been able to find them because I don't think they ever published the test for that reason.. it was basically useless.

Of a more interesting note for me based on your post is that I started doing more reading on current EMP research.. WOW.. they've come a long way in the last 5 to 7 years. I haven't paid much attention lately so I have a lot of reading to do to catch up with current stuff.
 
I just found that link to include.

If Sandia, TEM cell etc.



I think tests elsewhere were full power.

Current research? I thought large-scale testing was no longer done.


I would think modern efforts would be more model based, and small-scale injection tests. I've seen things like pulsers that are kilovolt arbitrary waveform generators.


What advances did you find?
 
What advances did you find?

They're doing a lot more testing for one. Seems like they're making their services available to corporations for a fee. I wasn't aware of that when I did my research. They've also developed a nanosecond high voltage current sink for grid use, and that certainly wasn't around.

The only testing apparatus I was aware of, when I did this research long ago, was a funky looking cylindrical object suspended by cables over a concrete pad outdoors. They placed (or drove) the objects under it. There's a youtube video of a reporter testing a car for public consumption.

I don't think the EMES or some of their other equipment was available back then.
 

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