Is it possible to protect your Solar System against EMP?

[SilverbackMP]

How do you dig your way out from under 240 feet of granite ?

Very carefully….and have multiple exits.

I’ve worked in two bunkers carved into granite. Not bad. Then again I don’t have the resources to make them extra plush like the .mil.

 

[Warpspeed]

Actually there are many types of different EMP devices, not just two.
A lot of research has been carried out over the last seventy years on both pure EMP generators and fission/fusion explosive devices.
Things such as neutron bombs that only kill living things and do not harm buildings or electronics for example.

But getting back to a practical electrical EMP weapon. The electrical energy discharge does not all come just from a battery, the massive electrical pulse comes from the chemical explosive that drives the flux compression generator.
Its like lighting a fuse on an explosive charge with a match.
You can say how can a single match contain enough energy to blow up anything. The energy is not in the match, but the explosive.
Likewise the battery to initially power an EMP device, is only needed to initiate the process. The massive electrical pulse comes from the explosive.

A nuclear EMP device is very different and much more powerful.
But the smaller directed weapons can be fitted to quite small missiles, and work just fine to disable specific targets like nuclear plants and electrical infrastructure.

 

[DPC]

No
And if my navy training was correct of what to expect
Well that the least of your troubles

 

[OffGridForGood]

My take aways:
two is one, one is none.
EMP's can come in more than ones and twos.
Three layers of protection (steel alum insulation) for a small back up system stored in a drum would be cheap "insurance" in case of loss of the main PV system. better safe than sorry.
Prepare the 1880-1910 era plow, seed, scythe yoke & oxen, better print a copy of "how to" farming and keep it in the drum.

 

[Hedges]

Things such as neutron bombs that only kill living things and do not harm buildings or electronics for example.

Fusion device, but without lots of uranium around it to be split by the 14 MeV neutrons.
Not much soft X-ray produced, which would have been absorbed by the air, heated, expanding to make a large blast. That's why it doesn't blow over buildings at as great a distance.
Neutrons would kill soldiers in advancing tanks, who would otherwise have been protected from the heat and blast. Therefore, of interest during the Cold War.

Neutrons do harm electronics. Energetic particles ionize materials, turning on transistors so they might burn out (depending on circuit design.) They also dope semiconductors by hitting silicon nuclei, changing a few to other elements. That can cause circuits to stop working.

 

[Hedges]

Prepare the 1880-1910 era plow, seed, scythe yoke & oxen, better print a copy of "how to" farming and keep it in the drum.

Have a stock of food and water. Keep out of sight until most of the zombies have died of starvation.
Also, you don't want to consume the short-lived radioisotopes, which give off high levels of radiation.
Allow that to decay. Also maybe scrape off the top level of fallout and discard before planting?

 

[Bluedog225]

What’s the advantage of DriShield 3400 bags? The website isn’t all that helpful. Thanks

 

[OffGridForGood]

yeah, it seems there is no end to the ''possible'' SHTF senarios, but then again, we can only do so much with what we got. A back up EMP-resistan small system ready to go seems possible. My place is well set for food stores water heating and a lot of good like-minded (and well armed) neighbours in a lonely part of the globe. I think the first two or three winters will deal with most of the undesireables that could otherwise pose a threat.
If any show up I will help them load up some canned stuff we have on hand in plain view, but I won't bother to tell them which cans have the rat poison.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Actually there are many types of different EMP devices, not just two.
A lot of research has been carried out over the last seventy years on both pure EMP generators and fission/fusion explosive devices.

That is true, but that research is anorexic at best. How do you research a nuclear EMP bomb without actually setting one off?

Things such as neutron bombs that only kill living things and do not harm buildings or electronics for example.

The neutron bomb thing is a myth. Sure, if you could put a bunch of neutrons in a jar and then explode it, everyone around would die.. Problem is, it is not possible to do. We can't make neutrons from scratch, and even if we could, they wouldn't last more than about 10 minutes before they decayed into a proton and an electron.

Set a neutron on your desk and in about 10 minutes, it will decay into a proton and an electron. That's what neutrons basically are, they're just protons with an electron inside to neutralize charge. (lets not get into the boson and neutrino), and neutrons are not stable outside an atomic nucleus. So how do you create neutrons? You can't.. not unless you have the gravitational power of about 5 or more solar masses.. Overcoming electron degeneracy pressure to force an electron into a proton is not going to happen.. That said, while we can not create neutrons, we can certainly harvest them from other atomic nuclei. And there's the problem.. You need to smash other atoms together to create a fusion reaction that releases a neutron, and you generally need a particle accelerator to do that. Not a very big one, but still..

Nuclear bombs also release neutrons.. but they don't do so gently and they don't leave buildings standing.

I think there are some elements that naturally decay and release neutrons as well.. but that wouldn't work for a weapon obviously.

To make an EMP weapon, which is also a sort of de-facto neutron bomb, you simply take a nuclear bomb and replace the neutron reflector (called a Tamper) with something less reflective and thinner. Instead of using the neutron reflector to bounce neutrons, and more importantly the gamma, back into the nuclear weapon's core to create more fission reactions, you allow the neutrons and gamma to escape. The amount of explosives used to compress the core must also be minimized.
The goal of an EMP weapon is to produce as much gamma as possible, and doing this sacrifices weapon yield. So a 1000 kiloton bomb becomes a 100 kiloton bomb, but that 100 kiloton bomb produces 20 times more gamma.. which produces more Compton scattering, which produces a bigger EMP.

The reverse of what you would expect is actually how it works.. The bigger the bomb, the smaller the EMP it makes. Generally speaking if there is such a thing in nuclear conversations.. LOL

But getting back to a practical electrical EMP weapon. The electrical energy discharge does not all come just from a battery, the massive electrical pulse comes from the chemical explosive that drives the flux compression generator.
Its like lighting a fuse on an explosive charge with a match.
You can say how can a single match contain enough energy to blow up anything. The energy is not in the match, but the explosive.
Likewise the battery to initially power an EMP device, is only needed to initiate the process. The massive electrical pulse comes from the explosive.

Non-nuclear EMP devices are sort of a point weapon.. Pick a room, or a computer on a table.. A really good one might be able to take out an entire building.. They are not capable of producing damaging EMP's over a wide area.

A nuclear EMP device is very different and much more powerful.
But the smaller directed weapons can be fitted to quite small missiles, and work just fine to disable specific targets like nuclear plants and electrical infrastructure.

I seriously doubt any made made non-nuclear EMP device could take out a power plant.. I'm certainly no expert on these directed energy weapons, but the laws of physics rule supreme. Even the most energetic chemical reactions are limited to some depressingly small energy numbers, and you can't put 10 parts of energy into one side and get 500 parts out the other side.. physics does not allow it.

In the case of a nuclear EMP, the effect is amplified because it is taking advantage of the planet's own magnetic field and atmospheric gasses.

 

[MurphyGuy]

What’s the advantage of DriShield 3400 bags? The website isn’t all that helpful. Thanks

The advantage over what? From an EMP standpoint, they are no better than aluminum foil.. From a practical perspective, you can just open a DriSheild bag and close it back up, whereas with aluminum foil, you would have to repair it after cutting it open.

Aluminum foil takes time to wrap up an item, with a DriShield bag, you can just put the item in the bag, fold it over and you're done.

The DriShield bags are tough, like a mylar bag they don't rip or tear like aluminum foil. With foil, you basically need a box then you wrap up that box. Foil almost always uses more space than just a bag.

 

[Bluedog225]

I take it they provide the emt protection? Better than Mylar.

 

[Bluedog225]

It’s a shame “dry” 12 volt batteries are so hard to find. I saw some years ago but not recently. The just add acid type.

Does anyone know of a source?

Edit. I take it back.

 

[MurphyGuy]

It’s a shame “dry” 12 volt batteries are so hard to find. I saw some years ago but not recently. The just add acid type.

Does anyone know of a source?

Rolls will ship you dry batteries.

 

[MurphyGuy]

I take it they provide the emt protection? Better than Mylar.

Yes.
Mylar provides almost zero protection..

 

[rodrick]

If you what to be EMP proof become amish they are immune to EMPs

 

[DPC]

From an EMP standpoint, they are no better than aluminum foil.

I keep some of that under my hat and in my underware

Just incase

Just incase your are still living under the illusion you can escape modern technological society
Can you live off the land like a Bushman?
Do you regularly hang out with old prefer Mennonite’s that can teach how to build things with hand tools?

You take for granted the age of information at your thumb
It is your life support system

Just because film is such a good teacher about human nature

 

[MurphyGuy]

I keep some of that under my hat and in my underware

Just incase

Just incase your are still living under the illusion you can escape modern technological society
Can you live off the land like a Bushman?

The idea of doing without technology after an EMP does not necessarily mean being relegated to bushman status. That said, we do keep 5 years of supplies for almost everything we'd need.

It's really not a question of "can you or not", its more of a question of comfort.

Do you regularly hang out with old prefer Mennonite’s that can teach how to build things with hand tools?

Why would I need an uneducated religious extremist to teach me anything? Here's a new's flash.. if you can't figure out how to build things with hand tools, you probably have a lot of other problems as well.

You take for granted the age of information at your thumb

No, that's not true either.. at least not for me. While I agree that there are some ignorant people out there who never learned how to read a paper map and couldn't get to the grocery store without GPS guiding them, I certainly don't need all the wonderful information we have at our fingertips in order to continue living.
And on that note, our home is filled with probably close to 10000 lbs worth of books. Shelves and shelves full of them.. So many in fact, that it became a concern due to the weight on the floor trusses. My 9 year old daughter reads two books a week every week.. good books, not the type with 1/2 inch kid sized print.. I read 20 to 30 books a year myself, and comments on all our books and shelves are quite common when someone comes to visit.
Knowledge is a wonderful thing.. once you have it, it can't be taken away, taxed, impounded, confiscated, or threatened. And knowledge is power.... pure and simple.

The attitude of "if it's not easy then it's impossible" is defeatist at best. An EMP is not going to render your table saw inoperable if you can figure out a way to power it. Your chain saw will still work, your hammer will still work.. a lot of things will still work, you just need to know how to provide them with power. and that's not difficult unless you wasted your life watching useless television shows or playing video games.

 

[DPC]

I used to do business with an old order Mennonite
“uneducated religious extremist”
Hardly

Pacifists and generally charitable, deeply moral and their greatest concern are not about worldly things but rather doing things the right things that will allow them to enter the kingdom of heaven when they die
This is a lot of work….

I’m an atheist but I find something about them both pure and refreshing
They reject modernity because they see it as dehumanizing

Bushmen
A non technological society is any that does not use an external input of energy to augment human labour
Most hunter gatherers live be in places where the average person can live a pretty laid back life if they work together and support each other


We don’t do that
We work for money our systems commodify everything it’s a system that is unstable without constant growth and limitless energy and resources
It is unsustainable

 

[Hedges]

The attitude of "if it's not easy then it's impossible" is defeatist at best. An EMP is not going to render your table saw inoperable if you can figure out a way to power it. Your chain saw will still work, your hammer will still work.. a lot of things will still work, you just need to know how to provide them with power. and that's not difficult unless you wasted your life watching useless television shows or playing video games.

True but, you are not likely to smelt iron, make gunpowder, draw copper into wire, spin cotton thread (unless you live where that is grown) ...

What is stockpiled could help you get by until 90% to 99% of the population has died off. Eventually you'll be back to the state of early settlers in the West or of North America, minus the supply chain of such materials. Not even cloth flower sacks available, so wear buckskin (assuming the hungry hordes haven't driven deer to extinction.) Your axe and pick should last a lifetime. Most things will be made of wood and dirt. But many generations can salvage older vehicle frames to make such tools (with difficulty when hacksaw blades and acetylene run out).

 

[DPC]

True but, you are not likely to smelt iron, make gunpowder, draw copper into wire, spin cotton thread (unless you live where that is grown) ...

What is stockpiled could help you get by until 90% to 99% of the population has died off. Eventually you'll be back to the state of early settlers in the West or of North America, minus the supply chain of such materials. Not even cloth flower sacks available, so wear buckskin (assuming the hungry hordes haven't driven deer to extinction.) Your axe and pick should last a lifetime. Most things will be made of wood and dirt. But many generations can salvage older vehicle frames to make such tools (with difficulty when hacksaw blades and acetylene run out).

I keep gasoline in a drum
I have a pretty decent pantry of dry goods and canned goods
I keep spare parts

I can probably survive a month without external inputs of food and power
That’s just long enough to wait for the army to roll into town and mobilize able body people for the relief effort
Anything beyond that is a non recoverable loss and crash

No one can prepare for that

But I’m more than likely to to be called up in case of the emergencies act
Since I’m far away from the ocean I can see being sent out to sea and I can imagine what I would be expect yo do unless they can find a 50 year old ship for me to maintain…
But in an emergency I can see people being mobilized and put to work ( like it or not ) to keep as much critical infrastructure functioning as possible and repair what can be

The fabric of our society requires stability
Lights have yo stay on toilets must flush trains and trucks must roll.
Consumables food fuel parts must be kept moving and rationed out

If that can be done society will not explode into something that looks like mad max.
But we are still left with problem of a long emergency where life is very hard in a large and distressed hierarchical society.

At this point we may wish we were bushmen living in fertile places in small self sustaining communities

Non of our current political economic structures will support a small local self sustained movement
These might even be attacked as threats

 

[MurphyGuy]

True but, you are not likely to smelt iron, make gunpowder, draw copper into wire, spin cotton thread (unless you live where that is grown) ...

We make black powder for fun.. Also make PETN and HMTD and loads and loads of nitrocellulose.

The HMTD is used to make caps to set off other stuff..

Why would we need to draw copper into wire? Even in a total collapse of society, copper wire is everywhere. There's no need to make stuff or store things that are ubiquitous unless they are perishable or consumables.

If I understand the point you're trying to make, it is that without modern tech, a lot of the things that make our lives go will be unavailable. I think that is only a little bit true, a very little bit. Sure, there will be things that are no longer available, but most of that is stuff that we can, and probably should do without, even in normal times.

No one needs fast food, television, video games, or an automatic coffee maker.. (we can argue about the coffee maker later LOL).

What is stockpiled could help you get by until 90% to 99% of the population has died off. Eventually you'll be back to the state of early settlers in the West or of North America, minus the supply chain of such materials. Not even cloth flower sacks available, so wear buckskin (assuming the hungry hordes haven't driven deer to extinction.) Your axe and pick should last a lifetime. Most things will be made of wood and dirt. But many generations can salvage older vehicle frames to make such tools (with difficulty when hacksaw blades and acetylene run out).

An all out nuclear exchange or a devastating EMP is not going to permanently set society back to the proverbial stone age. Even in a worse case scenario, things would start getting back to a "new normal" within five or ten years. Most of the population will have died off so more resources available for the rest.
Sure, it would hurt, it would also create a new way of life for people, but humans are an inventive and clever bunch and we'd get society going again in short order.

The permanent "mad max" scenario seems like a Hollywood fantasy to me.. pretty much all dystopian plots are a fantasy. The first two years would be hard, but after the dust has settled, people would quickly get back to work trading and building, and with the knowledge we have already gained, the rebuilding process would be fast and productive.

 

[DPC]

We make black powder for fun.. Also make PETN and HMTD and loads and loads of nitrocellulose.

The HMTD is used to make caps to set off other stuff..

Why would we need to draw copper into wire? Even in a total collapse of society, copper wire is everywhere. There's no need to make stuff or store things that are ubiquitous unless they are perishable or consumables.

If I understand the point you're trying to make, it is that without modern tech, a lot of the things that make our lives go will be unavailable. I think that is only a little bit true, a very little bit. Sure, there will be things that are no longer available, but most of that is stuff that we can, and probably should do without, even in normal times.

No one needs fast food, television, video games, or an automatic coffee maker.. (we can argue about the coffee maker later LOL).




An all out nuclear exchange or a devastating EMP is not going to permanently set society back to the proverbial stone age. Even in a worse case scenario, things would start getting back to a "new normal" within five or ten years. Most of the population will have died off so more resources available for the rest.
Sure, it would hurt, it would also create a new way of life for people, but humans are an inventive and clever bunch and we'd get society going again in short order.

The permanent "mad max" scenario seems like a Hollywood fantasy to me.. pretty much all dystopian plots are a fantasy. The first two years would be hard, but after the dust has settled, people would quickly get back to work trading and building, and with the knowledge we have already gained, the rebuilding process would be fast and productive.

I beg to differ
Reality of this struck me sometime around 1984
If your American you might remember the day after
As scary as that was it was not very realistic

If you can find threads in its entirety then watch it and expand your mind a little

In this scenario that never happened I’m in the engine room of a tribal class destroyer.
The boilers are at full scream and it’s snowing asbestos on my head and my job is to keep the breakers closed ( my secondary job as trained is armed raiding party but that’s not going to happen on this days my last day )
We are likely escorting a us carrier someplace in the North Atlantic, chasing a Soviet sub and waiting to get nuked out of the water if we miss the Russian subs desperately trying to do their job.
We are going to the bottom no matter and if by some dum luck that’s not the case , there is no pier left in Halifax and I would probably not wish to spend any time anyplace after the exchange functioning base or smouldering civi port.

I had no illusions it’s how long I would live or ever coming home and knowing there would be nothing waiting for me.
A real crazy person thinks this is all reasonable, survivable and even ethical

But now I’m old and except the truth

 

[MurphyGuy]

I beg to differ
Reality of this struck me sometime around 1982
If your American you might remember the day after
As scary as that was it was not very realistic

I don't understand your point. Differ how? What don't you agree with and why?

 

[T-486 Ashepoo]

Be prepared for government agencies and military to confiscate anything and everything. When they roll in, it won't be to help. Guns and fuel first, then forced evacuation even if your area is not damaged and people have nowhere to go. Read about hurricane Katrina and use it as an operational guide.

 

[Vigilant24]

- My take (FWIW): An EMP attack, huge Carrington "Event" is extremely unlikely: maybe 1% in my expected remaining life (approx 30 years).
- I live my life as normal in a regular suburb on the outskirts of a major American city. I want ot be near my extended family and enjoy their company, I like the convenience of shopping, and I don't want to maintain a rural homestead.
- Still. "extremely unlikely" ain't "zero. And, a lot of the things I'd do to be ready for something HUGE and unlikely are similar to what I'd do to be ready for something much more likely (ice storm with power loss of a week or more, another govt declared pandemic with lockdowns, etc). It costs very little to be "prepared enough" to cover a lot of contingencies. We have food, we can get water from our well by hand, we can assure it is safe to drink, I can protect what I have, etc.

Solar: My house isn't amenable to rooftop or other solar for daily use (too many trees). But, I'm buying and storing 4 x 100V panels, will buy and keep topped up 2 x 105AH FLA batteries, a 30-40A MPPT charge controller (and 2x 10A cheapie PWM controllers as backup), and a 1500W and an 800W PSW inverter. This ain't much, but it will run a CPAP, keep batteries charged (flashlights, phones, radio, power tools, etc), will run our furnace blower (nice, if the natural gas is still available), and give us pressurized water (12V RV membrane pump) to run through our existing filters, RO, and UV devices (plus others in storage) and we'll have hot water (again, if the natural gs stays on). We >might< have enough juice to run a fan at night for comfort. Freezer: Unlikely. I've toyed with the idea of a countertop ice maker to feed a well insulated cooler.

Multiple EMP events over an extended period: IMO, this seems unlikely. Once national leadership is aware of the scope, duration, and incipient casualty numbers, the gloves will come off and the responsible entity will not be in a position to conduct a significant follow-on attack of this type, So, I'd probably keep some electronic equip in reserve for a while, but I doubt I'd need 3 complete sets.

Again, not trying to cover every possibility (it's just not practical, IMO), but doing what makes sense. Like any other insurance policy.

Honestly, a big concern is how I'll keep the sewage from our municipal sanitation system from bubbling up into my house. According to folks who have studied these things, this poop, not lack of electricity, water, or food, is what leads to a mass migrations out of cities and suburbs when the grid fails.