Is it possible to protect your Solar System against EMP?

[MurphyGuy]

True but, you are not likely to smelt iron, make gunpowder, draw copper into wire, spin cotton thread (unless you live where that is grown) ...

We make black powder for fun.. Also make PETN and HMTD and loads and loads of nitrocellulose.

The HMTD is used to make caps to set off other stuff..

Why would we need to draw copper into wire? Even in a total collapse of society, copper wire is everywhere. There's no need to make stuff or store things that are ubiquitous unless they are perishable or consumables.

If I understand the point you're trying to make, it is that without modern tech, a lot of the things that make our lives go will be unavailable. I think that is only a little bit true, a very little bit. Sure, there will be things that are no longer available, but most of that is stuff that we can, and probably should do without, even in normal times.

No one needs fast food, television, video games, or an automatic coffee maker.. (we can argue about the coffee maker later LOL).

What is stockpiled could help you get by until 90% to 99% of the population has died off. Eventually you'll be back to the state of early settlers in the West or of North America, minus the supply chain of such materials. Not even cloth flower sacks available, so wear buckskin (assuming the hungry hordes haven't driven deer to extinction.) Your axe and pick should last a lifetime. Most things will be made of wood and dirt. But many generations can salvage older vehicle frames to make such tools (with difficulty when hacksaw blades and acetylene run out).

An all out nuclear exchange or a devastating EMP is not going to permanently set society back to the proverbial stone age. Even in a worse case scenario, things would start getting back to a "new normal" within five or ten years. Most of the population will have died off so more resources available for the rest.
Sure, it would hurt, it would also create a new way of life for people, but humans are an inventive and clever bunch and we'd get society going again in short order.

The permanent "mad max" scenario seems like a Hollywood fantasy to me.. pretty much all dystopian plots are a fantasy. The first two years would be hard, but after the dust has settled, people would quickly get back to work trading and building, and with the knowledge we have already gained, the rebuilding process would be fast and productive.

 

[DPC]

We make black powder for fun.. Also make PETN and HMTD and loads and loads of nitrocellulose.

The HMTD is used to make caps to set off other stuff..

Why would we need to draw copper into wire? Even in a total collapse of society, copper wire is everywhere. There's no need to make stuff or store things that are ubiquitous unless they are perishable or consumables.

If I understand the point you're trying to make, it is that without modern tech, a lot of the things that make our lives go will be unavailable. I think that is only a little bit true, a very little bit. Sure, there will be things that are no longer available, but most of that is stuff that we can, and probably should do without, even in normal times.

No one needs fast food, television, video games, or an automatic coffee maker.. (we can argue about the coffee maker later LOL).




An all out nuclear exchange or a devastating EMP is not going to permanently set society back to the proverbial stone age. Even in a worse case scenario, things would start getting back to a "new normal" within five or ten years. Most of the population will have died off so more resources available for the rest.
Sure, it would hurt, it would also create a new way of life for people, but humans are an inventive and clever bunch and we'd get society going again in short order.

The permanent "mad max" scenario seems like a Hollywood fantasy to me.. pretty much all dystopian plots are a fantasy. The first two years would be hard, but after the dust has settled, people would quickly get back to work trading and building, and with the knowledge we have already gained, the rebuilding process would be fast and productive.

I beg to differ
Reality of this struck me sometime around 1984
If your American you might remember the day after
As scary as that was it was not very realistic

If you can find threads in its entirety then watch it and expand your mind a little

In this scenario that never happened I’m in the engine room of a tribal class destroyer.
The boilers are at full scream and it’s snowing asbestos on my head and my job is to keep the breakers closed ( my secondary job as trained is armed raiding party but that’s not going to happen on this days my last day )
We are likely escorting a us carrier someplace in the North Atlantic, chasing a Soviet sub and waiting to get nuked out of the water if we miss the Russian subs desperately trying to do their job.
We are going to the bottom no matter and if by some dum luck that’s not the case , there is no pier left in Halifax and I would probably not wish to spend any time anyplace after the exchange functioning base or smouldering civi port.

I had no illusions it’s how long I would live or ever coming home and knowing there would be nothing waiting for me.
A real crazy person thinks this is all reasonable, survivable and even ethical

But now I’m old and except the truth

 

[MurphyGuy]

I beg to differ
Reality of this struck me sometime around 1982
If your American you might remember the day after
As scary as that was it was not very realistic

I don't understand your point. Differ how? What don't you agree with and why?

 

[T-486 Ashepoo]

Be prepared for government agencies and military to confiscate anything and everything. When they roll in, it won't be to help. Guns and fuel first, then forced evacuation even if your area is not damaged and people have nowhere to go. Read about hurricane Katrina and use it as an operational guide.

 

[Vigilant24]

- My take (FWIW): An EMP attack, huge Carrington "Event" is extremely unlikely: maybe 1% in my expected remaining life (approx 30 years).
- I live my life as normal in a regular suburb on the outskirts of a major American city. I want ot be near my extended family and enjoy their company, I like the convenience of shopping, and I don't want to maintain a rural homestead.
- Still. "extremely unlikely" ain't "zero. And, a lot of the things I'd do to be ready for something HUGE and unlikely are similar to what I'd do to be ready for something much more likely (ice storm with power loss of a week or more, another govt declared pandemic with lockdowns, etc). It costs very little to be "prepared enough" to cover a lot of contingencies. We have food, we can get water from our well by hand, we can assure it is safe to drink, I can protect what I have, etc.

Solar: My house isn't amenable to rooftop or other solar for daily use (too many trees). But, I'm buying and storing 4 x 100V panels, will buy and keep topped up 2 x 105AH FLA batteries, a 30-40A MPPT charge controller (and 2x 10A cheapie PWM controllers as backup), and a 1500W and an 800W PSW inverter. This ain't much, but it will run a CPAP, keep batteries charged (flashlights, phones, radio, power tools, etc), will run our furnace blower (nice, if the natural gas is still available), and give us pressurized water (12V RV membrane pump) to run through our existing filters, RO, and UV devices (plus others in storage) and we'll have hot water (again, if the natural gs stays on). We >might< have enough juice to run a fan at night for comfort. Freezer: Unlikely. I've toyed with the idea of a countertop ice maker to feed a well insulated cooler.

Multiple EMP events over an extended period: IMO, this seems unlikely. Once national leadership is aware of the scope, duration, and incipient casualty numbers, the gloves will come off and the responsible entity will not be in a position to conduct a significant follow-on attack of this type, So, I'd probably keep some electronic equip in reserve for a while, but I doubt I'd need 3 complete sets.

Again, not trying to cover every possibility (it's just not practical, IMO), but doing what makes sense. Like any other insurance policy.

Honestly, a big concern is how I'll keep the sewage from our municipal sanitation system from bubbling up into my house. According to folks who have studied these things, this poop, not lack of electricity, water, or food, is what leads to a mass migrations out of cities and suburbs when the grid fails.

 

[MurphyGuy]

Be prepared for government agencies and military to confiscate anything and everything. When they roll in, it won't be to help. Guns and fuel first, then forced evacuation even if your area is not damaged and people have nowhere to go. Read about hurricane Katrina and use it as an operational guide.

That is paranoia fantasy.

Katrina was a one-off and we quickly passed laws to prevent some singular idiot sheriff from every doing such a stupid thing again. Katrina was also an isolated event where rule of law still applied even though crime went crazy.

And the military? There won't be much of a military left. Tell me, if you're in the military and we get hit by a catastrophic EMP, are you going to report for duty and let your family fend for themselves or are you going to go awol and protect them?

Lets see.. the choice is: Report for duty and let my family die, or go and protect my family and bet there will be no court martial afterwards because there won't be a military to do anything about it..

Also, how would you report for duty if you have no communications telling you to report in? No transportation available, etc?

I'm pretty sure that our military, whatever is left of it, will be busy protecting the country from outside threats. They'll probably be busy guarding critical infrastructure like nuclear plants, shipping ports, hospitals, etc.

Sending soldiers door to door in a country full of guns? ROFLMAO. No military commander is going to be that stupid.

 

[DPC]

I don't understand your point. Differ how? What don't you agree with and why?

My point people will fight over over cigarettes and Keurig pods with clubs.
There is no coming back from that once you hit bottom

In 10,000 years things might be ready to start again
It depends on a lot of variables

 

[DPC]

That is paranoia fantasy.

You have never lived under marshal law
During the October crisis in 1970 we Canadians got a taste a true government power

They had lists and names on files
They came for the separatists but also scooped up communists, labour organizers, peace activists ect
All the files were opened and handed out to the discretion of the police to collect the trouble makers in what was a ham fisted operation run by thugs

In this day and age you will never get a politician in corners like this and he willl never be this frank again
But 52 years later this man’s son pulled the same lever to break up a dangers mob of truckers .

My point in the long emergency that comes after what ever force shakes out society up you can expect they will do what ever is required to maintain the stability of the hierarchal capitalist system.

What if Covid had been bad?
I mean put out grandmas grannies corps to the street for collection day bad…. And your locked in you home under marshal law
What if the blackout in 2002 had last more than 7 days and had cascaded into a larger area?
In 7 days the grocery stores are empty and the frozen refrigerated food is spoiled, the water stops running from taps and the sewers back up

Don’t fool your self into thinking our world is safe or stabile and our way of life is normal
And don’t fool yourself into thinking you can just go on your merry way of unplugged your technological life supports

Not that I am trying to be a downer on you man but life is not normal in normal times
And I don’t even think I know what normal should look like or what it might look like after the long emergency.

I have no solutions or ideas
I did not build this trap I just live in it with you

 

[Bluedog225]

Katrina was how it was. I wouldn’t discount it. There are 250 or so “idiot sheriffs” in Texas alone. It was a good study in human nature. Looking at Katrina, and other spots where things went south is realistic.

Kosovo stories are particularly instructive.

 

[DPC]

We elect big fat cats
All parties all political stripes turn into fat cats once they are in power
Why because most of the best people who you would like to see in government are usually engaged in far more fulfilling endeavours
We expect politicians the wealthy and powerful to make laws and govern us in the best of times with dignity and respect
But we the little mice people need to remember they will make laws that work best for cats

Maybe if we put more effort into it we could do better
But how many of us do and in the end we get out of society what we put and probably should not be disappointed with the end result

 

[MurphyGuy]

You have never lived under marshal law
During the October crisis in 1970 we Canadians got a taste a true government power

They had lists and names on files
They came for the separatists but also scooped up communists, labour organizers, peace activists ect
All the files were opened and handed out to the discretion of the police to collect the trouble makers in what was a ham fisted operation run by thugs

In this day and age you will never get a politician in corners like this and he willl never be this frank again
But 52 years later this man’s son pulled the same lever to break up a dangers mob of truckers.

My point in the long emergency that comes after what ever force shakes out society up you can expect they will do what ever is required to maintain the stability of the hierarchal capitalist system.

What if Covid had been bad?
I mean put out grandmas grannies corps to the street for collection day bad…. And your locked in you home under marshal law
What if the blackout in 2002 had last more than 7 days and had cascaded into a larger area?
In 7 days the grocery stores are empty and the frozen refrigerated food is spoiled, the water stops running from taps and the sewers back up

Don’t fool your self into thinking our world is safe or stabile and our way of life is normal
And don’t fool yourself into thinking you can just go on your merry way of unplugged your technological life supports

Not that I am trying to be a downer on you man but life is not normal in normal times
And I don’t even think I know what normal should look like or what it might look like after the long emergency.

I have no solutions or ideas
I did not build this trap I just live in it with you

I think I understand your perspective, especially given the history and the new guy in power. I don't entirely disagree with your opinion, I just disagree with your opinion in how it applies in the USA.

There are three things to consider.. three important things that are different.
1) Canadian's are generally nice people, we American's are generally a-holes.
2) We American's have a lot of guns.. and I mean an f'ing LOT of guns. And we generally know how to use them.
3) We American's generally have big issues with authority.

I don't have a time machine or a crystal ball so I can't say with any certainty what would happen here. I suspect that it would be a unique event and not have any similarities to other countries BECAUSE of our unique characteristics.

I also don't think there will be any significant military presence other than what I stated in my previous post.

There's a world of difference between localized events and those with nationwide catastrophic consequences. Although history is not my strong suit, I'm not aware of any historical events that would be similar to an EMP happening to any nation. To my knowledge, there is no event in history that has hobbled a nations' basic government services or infrastructure. And I think that's why the subject is so debatable with so few relevant arguments. To have relevance, you need precedent, and there is none.

 

[SilverbackMP]

I think I understand your perspective, especially given the history and the new guy in power. I don't entirely disagree with your opinion, I just disagree with your opinion in how it applies in the USA.

There are three things to consider.. three important things that are different.
1) Canadian's are generally nice people, we American's are generally a-holes.
2) We American's have a lot of guns.. and I mean an f'ing LOT of guns. And we generally know how to use them.
3) We American's generally have big issues with authority.

I don't have a time machine or a crystal ball so I can't say with any certainty what would happen here. I suspect that it would be a unique event and not have any similarities to other countries BECAUSE of our unique characteristics.

I also don't think there will be any significant military presence other than what I stated in my previous post.

There's a world of difference between localized events and those with nationwide catastrophic consequences. Although history is not my strong suit, I'm not aware of any historical events that would be similar to an EMP happening to any nation. To my knowledge, there is no event in history that has hobbled a nations' basic government services or infrastructure. And I think that's why the subject is so debatable with so few relevant arguments. To have relevance, you need precedent, and there is none.

Late Bronze Age Collapse 2.0 or Fall of Rome 2.0.

 

[Bluedog225]

I forget how long it would take for starvation to take a large % of the population. Not long though.

 

[T-486 Ashepoo]

That is paranoia fantasy.

Katrina was a one-off and we quickly passed laws to prevent some singular idiot sheriff from every doing such a stupid thing again. Katrina was also an isolated event where rule of law still applied even though crime went crazy.

And the military? There won't be much of a military left. Tell me, if you're in the military and we get hit by a catastrophic EMP, are you going to report for duty and let your family fend for themselves or are you going to go awol and protect them?

Lets see.. the choice is: Report for duty and let my family die, or go and protect my family and bet there will be no court martial afterwards because there won't be a military to do anything about it..

Also, how would you report for duty if you have no communications telling you to report in? No transportation available, etc?

I'm pretty sure that our military, whatever is left of it, will be busy protecting the country from outside threats. They'll probably be busy guarding critical infrastructure like nuclear plants, shipping ports, hospitals, etc.

Sending soldiers door to door in a country full of guns? ROFLMAO. No military commander is going to be that stupid.

It's not paranoid to understand that your plan and goals may be meaningless to a powerful organization that has its own plans and goals.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

What shielding?

 

[HighDesertOffgrid]

Kosovo stories are particularly instructive.

The kind of stories where every tree and piece of wooden furniture within miles were burned for warmth?

 

[Vigilant24]

What shielding?

This thread is now 135 posts long. To what post are you referring? Thanks.

 

[kanelr]

You do know solar panels ARE diodes, right?

no, that's why I ask. New territory here. Not a novice to solar however not a full tech guy by any means.

 

[kanelr]

We make black powder for fun.. Also make PETN and HMTD and loads and loads of nitrocellulose.

The HMTD is used to make caps to set off other stuff..

Why would we need to draw copper into wire? Even in a total collapse of society, copper wire is everywhere. There's no need to make stuff or store things that are ubiquitous unless they are perishable or consumables.

If I understand the point you're trying to make, it is that without modern tech, a lot of the things that make our lives go will be unavailable. I think that is only a little bit true, a very little bit. Sure, there will be things that are no longer available, but most of that is stuff that we can, and probably should do without, even in normal times.

No one needs fast food, television, video games, or an automatic coffee maker.. (we can argue about the coffee maker later LOL).




An all out nuclear exchange or a devastating EMP is not going to permanently set society back to the proverbial stone age. Even in a worse case scenario, things would start getting back to a "new normal" within five or ten years. Most of the population will have died off so more resources available for the rest.
Sure, it would hurt, it would also create a new way of life for people, but humans are an inventive and clever bunch and we'd get society going again in short order.

The permanent "mad max" scenario seems like a Hollywood fantasy to me.. pretty much all dystopian plots are a fantasy. The first two years would be hard, but after the dust has settled, people would quickly get back to work trading and building, and with the knowledge we have already gained, the rebuilding process would be fast and productive.

agreed. Was thinking some of said scenario would be the actual version of y2k fears. less pervasive, yet with toasted hardware- but shutdowns nonetheless.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

Production vehicles have no real electrical shielding.
As the matter of fact, data conductors aren’t even twisted.