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Battleborn caught on fire

Looks like the original OP's video may have just been removed from YouTube. I can't seem to access it any more....

Interesting issue. Would like to know if the BMS failed closed, if there were bad crimps on the cables on 3rd battery position, or something else?
 
Doubt it's the cable/crimp, since it had been doing the same thing with both batteries in that position. Two strings, so that would mean two separate, like issues with the cables in the same place in the strings.
 
As the video is now gone, I'll try my best to summarize the video, so this thread can continue. Please feel free to correct me if have something wrong.

Video shows a 270ah Battle Born with the corner of the case breached (blown out) and charred black. It seems like it has been off gassing, based on the reported smell in the battery shed where it had been stored.

Set up is eight 270ah batteries, configured as two 48 volt strings. Charging source is solar, via MPPTs

Video claims that the 3rd battery in each 4S string would always read 17 volts, regardless if a different battery was swapped out into that position.

MP
 
Excellent demonstration!

The same caveats apply to depending on a BMS to interrupt overcurrent.

There are limits to how much current can be pulled through a BMS in a "hard" short circuit. Exceed those limits and the result is shorted MOSFETs. The most common failure mode for MOSFETs is to fail in a shorted source-to-drain condition. If a current flows exceeding the saturation current of the MOSFET junctions, it's all over. They're smoked. It's simply a limitation of the technology - not a manufacturing fault.

Overcurrent detection takes a significant amount of time to react and can't be relied upon to protect the BMS from an excessive short circuit current that will destroy the MOSFETs in microseconds - and then leave them in a shorted condition - sustaining the short circuit current. In other words, a potentially catastrophic failure (a nice name for "fire"). Usually, the failed and now shorted MOSFETs have the good graces to go up in smoke, finally interrupting the current, but only if the short circuit current is sustained long enough to thermally cook them into lumps of carbon.

I always place a fuse directly at the positive battery terminal to at least interrupt a sustained short circuit, albeit with the anticipated destruction of the BMS. The only protection for loss of BMS utility is ... have a spare BMS or a full set of replacement MOSFETs, which isn't a good option in a battery that must be cut open to access the BMS. The alternative is to use a BMS with electromechanical contactors instead of MOSFETs - and even contactors have limits on how much current can be interrupted before the contacts become welded closed.

Bottom line: never depend on a BMS to survive or interrupt a really large short circuit current. Add a fuse or circuit breaker sized for 2 times your maximum expected load/charge current and rated to interrupt the worst case short circuit current: pack voltage divided by the sum of all the series cell impedances. For a pack having typical cells with a series impedance of 0.25mΩ, the instantaneous short circuit current could be as high as 3.65V / 0.25mΩ = 14,600 amps! Neither a fuse nor a breaker will react quickly enough to save the BMS MOSFETs, so expect the BMS to get toasted. But a fuse or breaker will reduce the risk of sustained overcurrent causing everything else to go up in smoke.
So if it was a mosfet failed to short circuit which caused the issue, the cells in that one battery would have been overcharged, but what level of overcharge is needed to achieve that explosive result? Seemed like it was actually the side of one cell which gave out, rather than the vent at the top (this based just on the scarring on the adjacent battery)
 
I wish he would have mentioned what the charge controller was reporting for current when he was measuring those battery voltages. I still think the BMS had opened on the one from over-voltage (cell or pack) and that is why he had the 17V reading on the it.
 
It looks like the battery that failed kept hovering around 17v for some reason and the BMS didn't trigger the OVD. Definitely a very odd issue. Would love to know what BB has to say about this.
Yes and for some reason no matter which battery he places in the 3rd position it hovers at 17V. Very strange.
 
I wish he would have mentioned what the charge controller was reporting for current when he was measuring those battery voltages. I still think the BMS had opened on the one from over-voltage (cell or pack) and that is why he had the 17V reading on the it.
I agree this sounds like the BMS doing strange things with the cell in that position.
 
Yes and for some reason no matter which battery he places in the 3rd position it hovers at 17V. Very strange.

It was unclear how many batteries he swapped to that position. It sounded like he only moved the one from the other string. Since his wiring is pretty straight forward, I think that if it is a BMS opening from OV causing the 17V reading, that it is just a coincidence.
 
The big issue I am thinking of is the fact that the overcharging was at the third position even when swapping out the batteries. I couldn't help but notice that that position was not more than a couple of feet away from those giant inverters and presumably the output of the cooling fans.
It made me think of overheating as being at least a contributing factor.

IMO, there was probably a "cocktail effect" of issues leading to the failure. It also made me think of the importance of smoke detectors in the battery room and the disireability of isolating the batteries from the living area if possible.
 
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Something doesn't smell right and I don't mean the electrolyte in the container.
 
I wish he would have mentioned what the charge controller was reporting for current when he was measuring those battery voltages. I still think the BMS had opened on the one from over-voltage (cell or pack) and that is why he had the 17V reading on the it.
None of the fact pattern makes sense to me.

However, I assume the BMS was either defective, programmed to the wrong HVC, or the FETs shorted (possibly due to in-rush current from the big inverter , ie no precharge was being done).

If the FETs failed in the 'open' position, the whole battery string would not function. In the video, they show him using his remaining one 4S string and it's clearly working, notwithstanding the battery in third position is reading 17 volts.

The above theory still does not explain why, when he swaps batteries, the problem does not follow the battery....
 
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None of the fact pattern makes sense to me.

However, I assume the BMS was either defective, programmed to the wrong HVC, or the FETs shorted (possible dues to in-rush current from the big inverter , ie no precharge was being done).

If the FETs failed in the 'open' position, the whole battery string would not function. In the video, they show him using his remaining one 4S string and it's clearly working, notwithstanding the battery in third position is reading 17 volts.

The above theory still does not explain why, when he swaps batteries, the problem does not follow the battery....
Quick questions?

Are we talking 12 volt batteries here? I see “4s“ so take that as 48vdc. “3rd position is trouble battery.”

since I did not get to see the original video before it was taken down need to ask how is this ~ 17volts dc being recorded for 3rd position vdc battery. Yes understand ~12volt lifepo batteries can read in ~14 volt range especially when charging. Understand the BMS is suppose to protect from over charging. So do we have a cell exceeding voltage or an entire 12vdc battery pack. So how is this being measured- stated ~17 vdc…… was there a fire? Were the batteries under severe load and it dropped out for the ~17 volts that ppl are talking about? I seen that it was “charging”. What the guy did is a great injustice to the viewers and now everyone are talking about what only a few seen.

sometimes when things are unplugged and opened the firmware -software will default - be listed as high so the entire system shuts down. When the load is suddenly dropped the voltage shoot high. Did the system shut down… again was there an actual fire? Did it catch on seriously damaging fire Or puff of smoke? Note again I like many others did not get to see the original video. I seen the follow up video and nothing was discussed except what appeared to be covering and a definite shutdown-loss of previously shared information.

If your car had a recall you would and should be entitled to know about it…. it stated New bb replacements were sent. Will’s video on BB batteries shows what appears to be quality parts in the bb batteries. Certainly looks better for internals then my cheap batteries. If battleborn are having problems makes me worry even more about my cheap batteries Especially in 4s with 4 bms.
 
Btw ppl cross posting this same story to another forum is confusing…. Different discussions same problem

thanks for this info here.

“As the video is now gone, I'll try my best to summarize the video, so this thread can continue. Please feel free to correct me if have something wrong.
Video shows a 270ah Battle Born with the corner of the case breached (blown out) and charred black. It seems like it has been off gassing, based on the reported smell in the battery shed where it had been stored.
Set up is eight 270ah batteries, configured as two 48 volt strings. Charging source is solar, via MPPTs
Video claims that the 3rd battery in each 4S string would always read 17 volts, regardless if a different battery was swapped out into that position.
MP”
 
Bottom line: never depend on a BMS to survive or interrupt a really large short circuit current. Add a fuse or circuit breaker sized for 2 times your maximum expected load/charge current and rated to interrupt the worst case short circuit current: pack voltage divided by the sum of all the series cell impedances. For a pack having typical cells with a series impedance of 0.25mΩ, the instantaneous short circuit current could be as high as 3.65V / 0.25mΩ = 14,600 amps! Neither a fuse nor a breaker will react quickly enough to save the BMS MOSFETs, so expect the BMS to get toasted. But a fuse or breaker will reduce the risk of sustained overcurrent passing through shorted MOSFETs causing everything else to go up in smoke.

When BMS has a large bank of low Rds_ON paralleled MOSFETs their cumulative gate drive capacitance is extremely high requiring a high driver current to switch them off quickly. Not many BMS's provide this high current (several amps) gate drive. If current is not a full short circuit the turn off time is still usually fast enough to prevent damage of MOSFET's.

The sensing of current is via the shunt resistors with their voltage drop read by microcontroller ADC. The ADC just rails to over scale voltage, but enough indication for microcontroller to pull the plug on the MOSFET's. All this still takes a small amount of time which is in addition to MOSFET gate driver capability to quickly shut down MOSFET's.

BMS charge-discharge Disable function.png


BMS in series.png
 
Quick questions?

Are we talking 12 volt batteries here? I see “4s“ so take that as 48vdc. “3rd position is trouble battery.”

since I did not get to see the original video before it was taken down need to ask how is this ~ 17volts dc being recorded for 3rd position vdc battery. Yes understand ~12volt lifepo batteries can read in ~14 volt range especially when charging. Understand the BMS is suppose to protect from over charging. So do we have a cell exceeding voltage or an entire 12vdc battery pack. So how is this being measured- stated ~17 vdc…… was there a fire? Were the batteries under severe load and it dropped out for the ~17 volts that ppl are talking about? I seen that it was “charging”. What the guy did is a great injustice to the viewers and now everyone are talking about what only a few seen.

sometimes when things are unplugged and opened the firmware -software will default - be listed as high so the entire system shuts down. When the load is suddenly dropped the voltage shoot high. Did the system shut down… again was there an actual fire? Did it catch on seriously damaging fire Or puff of smoke? Note again I like many others did not get to see the original video. I seen the follow up video and nothing was discussed except what appeared to be covering and a definite shutdown-loss of previously shared information.

If your car had a recall you would and should be entitled to know about it…. it stated New bb replacements were sent. Will’s video on BB batteries shows what appears to be quality parts in the bb batteries. Certainly looks better for internals then my cheap batteries. If battleborn are having problems makes me worry even more about my cheap batteries Especially in 4s with 4 bms.
Yes, it's four 12 volt, 270ah BB batteries in series to make 48 volts. There were two such 48v batteries in parallel (originally).

After one battery had a partial blow out ( pretty extensive damage) the owner put 4 batteries back into service while waiting for the replacements.

The video shows 17 volts measured with a DVM directly on the terminals of the 3rd battery, while still connected in the 4S string ( and presumably while still being charged by the solar).

Again, someone please correct me if I am mis-remembering

Agree it's very frustrating to try to trouble shoot, if you had not seen the original video.....
 
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17 volts on the battery terminals is not a defective battery. Fix the power source.
If BattleBorn replaced them once that is good on them but no reason to go a second round.
 
17 volts on the battery terminals is not a defective battery. Fix the power source.
If BattleBorn replaced them once that is good on them but no reason to go a second round.
Not true - a 4S bank of 12 volt batters can ( and do) go out of balance.
 
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