Small DIY or plug n play ( Australia)

pollenface · Apr 6, 2023

It would be good to know the specs of the panels then you will know how to configure them to a charge controller.

If they are all about 20-22v open circuit, you could connect them in parallel and charge a 12v battery, 40-45v for a 24v battery.

JHovel · Apr 6, 2023

I'd say you have a perfectly serviceable setup there - bar the batteries of course. The unpredictable bit are the solar panels. A volt meter gives you just an indication of their open circuit voltage. What you really need is a cheap MPPT meter (look at Andy's Off-Grid Garage website - link in YouTube page) or someone here will give you a recommendation. That will tell you the electrical condition of your inherited panels.
Decide from that data if you actually need new ones, or just a battery.
You can add new PV panels to that system without messing anything up by connecting the new panels to their own charge controller. Old and new charge controllers play nicely together.
LiFePo4 batteries with built-in BMS are currently quite affordable, e.g. 200Ah for under AUS$1000 on specials in 4WD and camping suppliers.
You will need to ensure you can adjust/program the charging voltages on your old charge controller to match the new batteries of course. If it's old enough not to be adjustable, just replace that with a modern MPPT charge controller (you probably should anyway).
No point throwing functioning gear out just because it is old.
Once you have the photos of all the relevant labels (PV, charge controller, inverter) put them here and we'll critique then for you.
I'm still using some 15 year old PV panels, a 20 year old QLD/Australian made 1kW inverter (amongst others) and 15 year old 635Ah batteries (still 30kWh!) that have another 20 year life span as far as I'm concerned.... I'll just keep checking them all every year or so.

Iristocratmusic · Apr 6, 2023

JHovel said:
I'd say you have a perfectly serviceable setup there - bar the batteries of course. The unpredictable bit are the solar panels. A volt meter gives you just an indication of their open circuit voltage. What you really need is a cheap MPPT meter (look at Andy's Off-Grid Garage website - link in YouTube page) or someone here will give you a recommendation. That will tell you the electrical condition of your inherited panels.
Decide from that data if you actually need new ones, or just a battery.
You can add new PV panels to that system without messing anything up by connecting the new panels to their own charge controller. Old and new charge controllers play nicely together.
LiFePo4 batteries with built-in BMS are currently quite affordable, e.g. 200Ah for under AUS$1000 on specials in 4WD and camping suppliers.
You will need to ensure you can adjust/program the charging voltages on your old charge controller to match the new batteries of course. If it's old enough not to be adjustable, just replace that with a modern MPPT charge controller (you probably should anyway).
No point throwing functioning gear out just because it is old.
Once you have the photos of all the relevant labels (PV, charge controller, inverter) put them here and we'll critique then for you.
I'm still using some 15 year old PV panels, a 20 year old QLD/Australian made 1kW inverter (amongst others) and 15 year old 635Ah batteries (still 30kWh!) that have another 20 year life span as far as I'm concerned.... I'll just keep checking them all every year or so.

Hi,
Thanks …re mppt unit
I did just look at one of wills videos and one of the victron models. There’s a small screenshot of it here.
I would like you be able to re use what is there..
So i will
Start w checking the panels…is a mppt meter the same as an mppt charge controller?
I like the idea of the lifepo4… 200ah
As I’m away a bit I need something that I can leave for a couple of months at a time.
Thanks for your support.

JHovel · Apr 7, 2023

This is the meter I have: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002381940978.html
No, they are not a charge controller, they actually check the panel output directly. Do these tests with a clear sky and the panel facing the sun as close to perpendicular as you can.

Tim Tim · Apr 8, 2023

Hi Luke,
I’m up at Nelson Bay. I read a lot of Wattsmatter’s posts as he has a fantastic setup.

You have a number of options but to be honest I wouldn’t bother with the Bluetti. As pointed out you can buy a 200Ah battery from a 4WD store, which wouldn’t be my first choice
, but Aussiebatteries have a a good reputation for AGM or LiFePO4.

https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/

The other option is to buy LiFePO4 cells and a BMS from China and build your own 280Ah or 310Ah for around $1100.

People go to a 24V system depending on the size of the inverter they are using as the advantages are lower current and therefore thinner cables and smaller fuses.

For the appliances that you are using, although I have no idea of your amplifier power usage, you could probably get away with a 12v system but you just have to be mindful of the power that you draw. For a 24v system you would need two batteries.

I run my caravan on a 12v system with a Giandel 3000W inverter, although the maximum appliance I use at any one time is 2400W. I recently ran my caravan AC as a test from 9.00am till 5pm and only used 3% of my 560Ah batteries but I do have 500W of solar panels flat on the roof. provided you run your washing machine 700W to 1400W whilst the sun is shining you should be able to manage.

Giandel inverters can be purchased here.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/231856179554?

Good luck
Tim

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

wattmatters said:
That makes life a bit challenging. That will barely cover a battery with the sort of discharge current capacity you are looking at.

Yes… I’ll do number crunching on my expected load …

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

Tim Tim said:
Hi Luke,
I’m up at Nelson Bay. I read a lot of Wattsmatter’s posts as he has a fantastic setup.

You have a number of options but to be honest I wouldn’t bother with the Bluetti. As pointed out you can buy a 200Ah battery from a 4WD store, which wouldn’t be my first choice
, but Aussiebatteries have a a good reputation for AGM or LiFePO4.

https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/

The other option is to buy LiFePO4 cells and a BMS from China and build your own 280Ah or 310Ah for around $1100.

People go to a 24V system depending on the size of the inverter they are using as the advantages are lower current and therefore thinner cables and smaller fuses.

For the appliances that you are using, although I have no idea of your amplifier power usage, you could probably get away with a 12v system but you just have to be mindful of the power that you draw. For a 24v system you would need two batteries.

I run my caravan on a 12v system with a Giandel 3000W inverter, although the maximum appliance I use at any one time is 2400W. I recently ran my caravan AC as a test from 9.00am till 5pm and only used 3% of my 560Ah batteries but I do have 500W of solar panels flat on the roof. provided you run your washing machine 700W to 1400W whilst the sun is shining you should be able to manage.

Giandel inverters can be purchased here.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/231856179554?

Good luck
Tim

Tim
Thanks … I’ll look into the giandel
How about the lifepo4 batteries… if I got one 200ah … where do you suggest in aust?
I’m thinking to go w the smaller system and use the generator when running the larger loads..washing machine , vacuum etc.
The generator will need the occasional once a week run anyway

So you’d suggest just go 12v into a good inverter. (3000w)?

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
Tim
Thanks … I’ll look into the giandel
How about the lifepo4 batteries… if I got one 200ah … where do you suggest in aust?
I’m thinking to go w the smaller system and use the generator when running the larger loads..washing machine , vacuum etc.
The generator will need the occasional once a week run anyway
So you’d suggest just go 12v into a good inverter. (3000w)?

Saw the Aussie battery link… re 200ah lifepo4…
What batteries do you have n your van?

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

50ShadesOfDirt said:
Solar generators (bluetti, etc) are nice-looking little boxes ... some are even very expandable. The trade-off seems to be capacity. Personally, I couldn't spend that kind of money for the little amount of capacity inside them.

It is just too easy to build your own "solar generator", with way more capacity, for way less cost. Will's own vids, plenty of youtube vids, the details and ease of diy is there ...

They are also irresistable from a "flashing leds & multitudes of plugs" in a tiny little package ... who can resist the nuclear control panel aspect of some of these?

if you absolutely don't want to DIY, then by all means get a bluetti. If you were mostly using for camping, & capacity wasn't a big deal, and no desire for DIY, then also get them.

Hope this helps ...

Yes, thanks for the discussion.., I do have desire for DIY…so definitely leaning that ways. Appreciate the forum!

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

pollenface said:
It would be good to know the specs of the panels then you will know how to configure them to a charge controller.

If they are all about 20-22v open circuit, you could connect them in parallel and charge a 12v battery, 40-45v for a 24v battery.

Thanks … I need to get the right meter to test them…

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

pollenface said:
It would be good to know the specs of the panels then you will know how to configure them to a charge controller.

If they are all about 20-22v open circuit, you could connect them in parallel and charge a 12v battery, 40-45v for a 24v battery.

Would suggest getting a Pv multimeter?

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

wattmatters said:
A battery needs to meet two two requirements:

- energy capacity (how long it will last)
- discharge capacity (how much power it can deliver)

The former depends on what your expected average power draw will be and for how long you need to keep stuff running from the battery.

With the latter, if you expect your battery to support loads up to 3 kW (or brief surges beyond that), then it better have the ability to deliver enough current.

Adding say 10% for DC->AC losses, that's 3.3 kW on the DC side. At a "nominal" 24 V, that's 137.5 amps. So you'll need a battery with a BMS rated to supply at least that much current. Generally the higher current rated batteries are also bigger capacity batteries, which are more expensive. I'd expect a 200 Ah 24 V battery would be the minimum.

Watt matters,
Thanks again…the solar set up will be in a ‘power shed’ ( where the generator is kept).
This is about 15 Mtrs from the house.
Does this distance need to be considered when selecting a system? Dies it need more grunt to send power to the house circuit box?

Iristocratmusic · Apr 9, 2023

50ShadesOfDirt said:
It costs you nothing to go ahead and run through the design steps ... a few calculations, power audit, and such will help you know what an "ideal" system is.

From there, you can do what-if's to keep parts of the old (possibly piece-meal?) system components, or choose to go with all new, all mostly trouble-free components.

The generator is a key backup component to your system, so that part is mostly done. Solar panels are there, but you'll need to poke around with them and get numbers off of each set, and figure out how they were layed out (how many "strings" of what kinds of panels). I'd investigate each existing component, and make a listing of it all ... post it back here if ok with sharing the info.

The design steps:

1. Go here, and enter in each appliance's values (watts, hours/day you want to run it, etc.):
https://unboundsolar.com/solar-information/offgrid-calculator

2. Go here, using numbers from above, and fiddle with various entries/components, and you'll see in real-time what your system component (inverter, mppt, panel) sizing is:
https://www.altestore.com/store/calculators/off_grid_calculator/

There are many similar website pages/calculators, but these two pages should help you get through most of the necessary calculations. This helps you quickly decide if you can do what you want to do, and you can vary component choices for what-if scenarios.

This is remote, off-grid, so a small, standalone system would likely consist of an AIO inverter, a battery-bank (even if just one battery for now), and solar panels, along with connecting bit & bobs (cables, fuses, etc.); generator would be a backup to recharge battery-bank if solar not cooperating, or if powering large occasional loads.

Reference voltage (as others have mentioned) is 12v, 24v, or 48v ... don't know what it's like sourcing components down under, but a 12v or 24v is easy to do, especially if power needs and distances are small. 48v is for larger needs & distances, at more cost.

See Will's videos & diagrams for example systems, under "DIY Solar ..." drop-down list at top of this forum.

Hope this helps ...

Good point re distance …
If I have the solar set up in a power shed…15 Mtr from the house ( connected via 240v electrical cable) will this impact my decision on 12 24 or 48v… or size of system?
Btw I do have the potential to position everything next to the house … where the old system was and use the power shed for the generator connection.
Any ideas welcome
Thx again

wattmatters · Apr 9, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
Does this distance need to be considered when selecting a system? Dies it need more grunt to send power to the house circuit box?

It's just a matter of ensuring your cable is of sufficient gauge.

Cable Size Calculator AS/NZS 3008

Cable size calculator for current rating, voltage drop, loop impedance, earth cable and short circuit, based on Australia and New Zealand standard AS/NZS 3008.

www.jcalc.net

You want to avoid too much voltage drop. With 230 V AC wire doesn't need to be super thick but it will depend on how much current you expect to pump through it.

And importantly, if you ever expect to upgrade the electrical current that cable may need to carry in future then keep that in mind.

Burying cable is a PITA, so better to get it capable of meeting current and future needs. And while you are at it, lay a data cable as well in the same trench (it can be at 200 mm while the power line needs to be at 600 mm deep).

With my system I started with a smaller inverter and my 20 A connections and wire were ample. But eventually I doubled the size of my system and needed to upgrade to 32 A. Fortunately no buried cable for me, but still, new wire and power inlets and outlets.

Tim Tim · Apr 9, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
Saw the Aussie battery link… re 200ah lifepo4…
What batteries do you have n your van?

If I were to be buying a LiFePO4 battery then Aussie batteries would be my choice but I have built my own by buying 280Ah cells and a BMS from from China.

Amy has a good reputation although you do pay a little more but you can also buy your BMS from her which saves on postage costs.

https://szluyuan.en.alibaba.com/pro...?spm=a2700.shop_index.111720.3.7db6273eOKcQh4

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...html?spm=a2700.shop_index.84.6.7db6273eOKcQh4

Good luck
Tim

Tim Tim · Apr 9, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
Tim
Thanks … I’ll look into the giandel
How about the lifepo4 batteries… if I got one 200ah … where do you suggest in aust?
I’m thinking to go w the smaller system and use the generator when running the larger loads..washing machine , vacuum etc.
The generator will need the occasional once a week run anyway
So you’d suggest just go 12v into a good inverter. (3000w)?

Many will say don’t go 12v with a 3000W but the reality is how much power do you want to draw at any one time. You always make allowances for inefficiencies and that is why I bought a 3000W inverter. The biggest appliance I have run is a 2400W kettle which takes a few minutes and did not reach that level of power draw and if I recall it was 199A @ 12v. My two batteries both have a 250A BMS, which is way over the top, and i upgraded my cables to my inverter as the ones that come with them are always light on. You would have no issues running a 1400W washing machine on a sunny day.

Iristocratmusic · Apr 10, 2023

wattmatters said:
It's just a matter of ensuring your cable is of sufficient gauge.

Cable Size Calculator AS/NZS 3008

Cable size calculator for current rating, voltage drop, loop impedance, earth cable and short circuit, based on Australia and New Zealand standard AS/NZS 3008.

www.jcalc.net

You want to avoid too much voltage drop. With 230 V AC wire doesn't need to be super thick but it will depend on how much current you expect to pump through it.

And importantly, if you ever expect to upgrade the electrical current that cable may need to carry in future then keep that in mind.

Burying cable is a PITA, so better to get it capable of meeting current and future needs. And while you are at it, lay a data cable as well in the same trench (it can be at 200 mm while the power line needs to be at 600 mm deep).

With my system I started with a smaller inverter and my 20 A connections and wire were ample. But eventually I doubled the size of my system and needed to upgrade to 32 A. Fortunately no buried cable for me, but still, new wire and power inlets and outlets.

Thanks…
(I posted this below too after writing this)
I have been seeing several smaller inverters for sale … 2nd hand. A cheaper 2200w giandel $200A ( retails for $300)and a brand called projecta ($300A) 1800w that retails for about $1000. I think these are Australian made.
Both are 12v pure sine wave inverters.
Any comments on which way to go…
Or is it better to get All in one unit?

Iristocratmusic · Apr 10, 2023

Tim Tim said:
Many will say don’t go 12v with a 3000W but the reality is how much power do you want to draw at any one time. You always make allowances for inefficiencies and that is why I bought a 3000W inverter. The biggest appliance I have run is a 2400W kettle which takes a few minutes and did not reach that level of power draw and if I recall it was 199A @ 12v. My two batteries both have a 250A BMS, which is way over the top, and i upgraded my cables to my inverter as the ones that come with them are always light on. You would have no issues running a 1400W washing machine on a sunny day.

Thanks… re inverters… and I’m putting this to the forum too…I have been seeing several smaller inverters for sale … 2nd hand. A cheaper 2200w giandel $200A ( retails for $300)and a brand called projecta ($300A) 1800w that retails for about $1000. I think these are Australian made.
Both are 12v pure sine wave inverters.
Any comments on which way to go…
Or is it better to get All in one unit?
Now reading your post…Or wait to find a good 3000w pure sine inverter
To ensure I have enough power for occasional larger loads…that makes sense

Iristocratmusic · Apr 10, 2023

Calculating my load via the unbound website
(Without large loads)
I got 1780w per day
53 kw p month
And system .51Kw
Does that sounds right for a small system.?

Inverter:
Is a 12v system fine for this?
3000m pure sine inverter ( brand suggestions)
1 x 200Ah lifepo4
Solar regulator ( suggestions)

Do I need a 24v inverter if I go 24v system?
Can a 12v inverter work in a 24v system?
Most 2nd hand inverters are 12v but probably because they’re out of van/ 4wd set ups?

Iristocratmusic · Apr 10, 2023

Tim Tim said:
If I were to be buying a LiFePO4 battery then Aussie batteries would be my choice but I have built my own by buying 280Ah cells and a BMS from from China.

Amy has a good reputation although you do pay a little more but you can also buy your BMS from her which saves on postage costs.

https://szluyuan.en.alibaba.com/pro...?spm=a2700.shop_index.111720.3.7db6273eOKcQh4

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...html?spm=a2700.shop_index.84.6.7db6273eOKcQh4

Good luck
Tim

You linked Aussie batteries earlier is this Amy ?
I haven’t looked into the cells but I know will has some stuff on this… you join them together…?
And what is the BMS? This is bought seperately?

wattmatters · Apr 10, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
I got 1780w per day

Do you mean 1780 Wh per day?

W and Wh are very different.

Assuming you mean Wh, then as 12 V system will manage that easily.

I think if you wanted to run the other high power stuff with an inverter then you might be better to consider a 48 V system.

I make no comment on the inverter options, I don't know much about those 12 V inverters.

Rednecktek · Apr 10, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
Calculating my load via the unbound website
(Without large loads)
I got 1780w per day
53 kw p month
And system .51Kw
Does that sounds right for a small system.?

Not unreasonable at all.

Iristocratmusic said:
Inverter:
Is a 12v system fine for this?
3000m pure sine inverter ( brand suggestions)
1 x 200Ah lifepo4
Solar regulator ( suggestions)

100ah BMS will limit you to 1200w of inverter, 200a BMS will limit you to 2400w. To feed a 3kw inverter on 12v you're looking at a minimum of 3 batteries in parallel to feed it.

Iristocratmusic said:
Do I need a 24v inverter if I go 24v system?
Can a 12v inverter work in a 24v system?
Most 2nd hand inverters are 12v but probably because they’re out of van/ 4wd set ups?

An inverter must be matched to the nominal voltage of the batteries so if you're on a 12v system you MUST use a 12v inverter, likewise a 24v inverter can ONLY be used with a 24v battery system. 12v will not run and just shut off on low voltage and a 48v battery will release the magic orange smoke.

Tim Tim · Apr 10, 2023

Iristocratmusic said:
I do have 1700w selectronic sine wave inverter and a decent solar charge controller from the old system I could re commission. Then I can focus funds on a couple of quality lifepo4 batteries.
These units are about 15 yrs old though … so I May need to beef up my budget and buy some new gear like victron. What do you think?

Sry but I just saw the photos of your existing system. If it is just the batteries that have failed then why don’t you just replace the AGM’s plus add a few extras. Is that a 12v or 24v system that is currently installed? The system will probably run your washing machine, and probably your vacuum depending on the wattage but you could use your generator if need be in any case.

If you were to change over to LiFePO4 batteries then in all probability you would need to change your solar controller unless your current model one is compatible.

I have both Epever and Victron solar controllers.

Amy is the Alibaba link to buying cells from China. If buying cells you also need a battery management system (BMS). All LiFePO4 batteries have one inside. If you want to set up quickly and without lots of works I suggest you look at the Aussiebatteries link I posted. It then comes down to whether you want a AGM’s or LiFePO4, the latter meaning an upgrade of the solar controller, and whether you really need to go to a 24v system. Personally I wouldn’t bother with the loads you are drawing for limited time.

Iristocratmusic · Apr 17, 2023

Tim Tim said:
Sry but I just saw the photos of your existing system. If it is just the batteries that have failed then why don’t you just replace the AGM’s plus add a few extras. Is that a 12v or 24v system that is currently installed? The system will probably run your washing machine, and probably your vacuum depending on the wattage but you could use your generator if need be in any case.

If you were to change over to LiFePO4 batteries then in all probability you would need to change your solar controller unless your current model one is compatible.

I have both Epever and Victron solar controllers.

Amy is the Alibaba link to buying cells from China. If buying cells you also need a battery management system (BMS). All LiFePO4 batteries have one inside. If you want to set up quickly and without lots of works I suggest you look at the Aussiebatteries link I posted. It then comes down to whether you want a AGM’s or LiFePO4, the latter meaning an upgrade of the solar controller, and whether you really need to go to a 24v system. Personally I wouldn’t bother with the loads you are drawing for limited time.

Hi
Yes I have looked a little at this… going to test the solar panels this weekend. The system is 24v.. I have thought to do as u suggest…change to lifepo4…and change solar charger or see if it’s useable. I spoke to selectonic about the inverter…def 24 v… so I need a 24v battery…apparently power plus in Melbourne sell 24v batteries . Any other ideas welcome .
As we’re not there all the time …I’m hesitant to spend too much … maybe build a small system for light loads … till we decide if we will live there .

Iristocratmusic · Apr 17, 2023

Rednecktek said:
Not unreasonable at all.

100ah BMS will limit you to 1200w of inverter, 200a BMS will limit you to 2400w. To feed a 3kw inverter on 12v you're looking at a minimum of 3 batteries in parallel to feed it.

An inverter must be matched to the nominal voltage of the batteries so if you're on a 12v system you MUST use a 12v inverter, likewise a 24v inverter can ONLY be used with a 24v battery system. 12v will not run and just shut off on low voltage and a 48v battery will release the magic orange smoke.

Thanks…good info. I’m checking the pv panels this weekend. Will post pics and results .

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