Who gets free energy from the grid (or even paid to consume)?

[Doggydogworld]

Vey interesting - I believe this is the first time I have seen "Battery" as a significant power source in a utility scale operation, 2% is a lot of battery in a system this size. Perhaps the most interesting part, the "Battery" source is shown about the same cost per kWh as the Nat. Gas source.

Batteries draw 1-4 GW during the day in California then provide 5+ GW (~20% of total consumption) during the evening.

 

[Hedges]

While not "free", California is likely moving towards midday being a "super off-peak" TOU with relatively lower rates.

The obvious solution is more batteries everywhere. At least batteries in everyone's home can provide ancillary benefits other than making money via arbitrage, unlike residential rooftop PV whose one trick pony is to make money at the expense of all other parties.

California's TOU rates were peak from Noon to 6:00 PM when I invested $50,000 (net after incentives) in PV.
It was a time when PG&E was paying as much as $1/kWh for power from peaker plants, and the grid was suffering shutoffs due to overload.


The peak consumption is middle of the afternoon. Not early evening (duck's head.)
Times have changed, with significant amounts of PV now online, reducing the amount of fossil fuel that would otherwise be burned.


Lots of people with A/C consumption middle of the day, and Rooftop PV offsets that, reducing their demand on the grid. And no, it doesn't make them any money at all. It reduces their expenses, now that utility rates are 4x higher than back when I got my first panels 20 years ago.

The only thing wrong with that is PG&E doesn't make money off it. They would rather burn natural gas and get a markup. Or contract for wholesale PV and get a markup.

 

[olivinelife]

And no, it doesn't make them any money at all. It reduces their expenses

Actually, reducing expenses is even better than making money (=income taxed by the IRS).

 

[GregTR]

@GregTR Any possibility of showing us one of the parts of your bills showing completely free night time rates (no distribution charges)?

It is clear from even today's TOU for Oncore that they charge $0.328/kWh inclusive of Delivery charge and you get full credit for all power used during the night.

This is the plan I've been on since September, 2022 and will likely renew into in a few months for another 2 years. The only time I actually paid for electricity was during a few days in the winter when we had practically zero sun (generated 5kWh) and my pool pumps had to run all day because of the freeze protect. I think it cost me a total of $5 that day.



The difference between usage and nights credit is because they have their cutoff at a weird time so some months I even get more credit than what I used for the month, this was not one of those months.

And here is what I calculated/measured in Home Assistant for the same time period:

 

[GregTR]

Those plans are great, except when the details allow the PoCo to charge arbitrarily high rates during "On-Peak" times, and they can vary dynamically. Ask the folks in Texas about the winter storm: https://www.texastribune.org/2023/03/17/puc-appeals-court-uri-prices/

Except those rates have been banned precisely since the winter storm of 2022 and cannot be offered to end consumers directly.

The plan I'm on is fixed, I get the delivery charge fully credited back and in 20+ months I have amassed a $300 credit thanks to solar export getting $0.03/kWh and I use nothing from the grid between the hours of 7AM and 9PM where I'm on solar and/or battery.

 

[GregTR]

BTW, my ROI on the solar is coming along nicely, not as good as one would like but it's decent.

So far I have used 54MW since I had solar installed and at $0.14/kWh that'd be $7,562 that I have not paid. I'm also sitting on $300 credit so my total ROI so far is $7,862 in 21 months so about $374/month. I have also probably saved $1k on gas in the winter (I use electric heater at night for free) for another $50/month on average so make it $425 for good measure. I paid $48k for my system so I'm looking at 113 months until I break even, about 9.4 years.

 

[wattmatters]

Set a new PB on Sunday importing 35 kWh during the 2-hour free energy period:

I could have drawn more if it were not for the 32 A/phase current limitation on our supply. We needed to put the heating on and so I had to dial back the car's charge rate.

Solar PV output was woeful that day, just 3 kWh total for the day from our 13.2 kW of PV. I was glad to get the water heated, the home warmed up, clothes washing and drying done, a dishwasher load and some charge into the car home battery for zero energy cost.

There is an alternative retailer offering 3 hours of free energy 11AM-2PM every day (mine is only on weekends). But their daily charges are much higher and I cannot offset evening / night time heating (or cooling) and it is energy hungry. That may change as we are likely to be selling up and moving home and I am hopeful we'll be in a more energy efficient home which may make such a plan more attractive.

 

[GregTR]

Set a new PB on Sunday importing 35 kWh during the 2-hour free energy period:

I could have drawn more if it were not for the 32 A/phase current limitation on our supply. We needed to put the heating on and so I had to dial back the car's charge rate.

Solar PV output was woeful that day, just 3 kWh total for the day from our 13.2 kW of PV. I was glad to get the water heated, the home warmed up, clothes washing and drying done, a dishwasher load and some charge into the car home battery for zero energy cost.

There is an alternative retailer offering 3 hours of free energy 11AM-2PM every day (mine is only on weekends). But their daily charges are much higher and I cannot offset evening / night time heating (or cooling) and it is energy hungry. That may change as we are likely to be selling up and moving home and I am hopeful we'll be in a more energy efficient home which may make such a plan more attractive.

Rookie numbers

I drew 103 kWh between 9PM and 7AM on Christmas Eve last year and close to 50 kWh from 9PM to 11PM. I was charging my battery, my EV and ran 5 space heaters all night long :-D

 

[Brucey]

Rookie numbers

I drew 103 kWh between 9PM and 7AM on Christmas Eve last year and close to 50 kWh from 9PM to 11PM. I was charging my battery, my EV and ran 5 space heaters all night long :-D


View attachment 224376

You have free hours from 9PM to 7AM? how much is your regular rate?

 

[GregTR]

You have free hours from 9PM to 7AM? how much is your regular rate?

I posted the details just a few post above. $0.292/kWh but I never use any

 

[kendive]

In some places it is becoming more common for grid utility suppliers to offer free energy periods to household customers. I am curious as the experience of forum members around the world as to whether/where this might also be occurring.

Typically it is tied to an over supply of energy generation during particular times of day, or days of the week when wholesale electricity prices regularly fall into negative territory.

Here in the eastern states of Australia we are now seeing the emergence of retailers offering plans with free energy periods. One offers free energy between the hours of 11AM to 2PM every day. Another between 12-2PM on weekends. I am on this latter plan.

There are of course also options to purchase energy tied to the wholesale price directly. That's a much riskier proposition as there is both significant up and downsides to that approach. If you can store enough energy to consume later and automate loads to avoid the peak price periods, then it can work very well. If the wholesale price is negative enough to cover the distribution fees then you can be credited for consuming energy. But beware of price peaks.

Here this is being driven by the wholesale price of energy often going negative during the middle of the day caused by the large amount of solar PV on the grid. Power distribution companies (who run the poles and wires but do not retail energy to consumers) are also introducing "solar soaker" tariff structures for energy retailers - with cheap daytime service rates for electricity distribution, so this trend is likely to continue for a while yet.

There may be some locations with free energy overnight, perhaps under utilised nuclear power stations want the load. But here it is being driven by the impact of solar PV, not least of which is rooftop PV which generates more energy than does grid scale PV.

Naturally in order to consume free energy from the grid, you need first to chew up your own grid-tied generation (or turn it off).

As an example, yesterday the weather here was pretty poor, so my own generation was lousy. But I still get free grid energy between 12-2PM. I have some load automations set up to make the most of it. This was the result:

View attachment 219096

Automations commence charging the off-grid battery and the EV at its maximum rate (until it had reached the set state of charge), and I switched the water heater over to full power "heat now" mode instead of its normal mode which just uses available excess PV energy. Washing machine and dishwasher running too (they heat their own water).

I ended up importing 27 kWh in that time.

Is this the future, or just a temporary scenario during the energy transition to low carbon energy sources?

One thing which springs to mind is this sort of tariff structure makes solar PV a bit less appealing - you might instead consider going battery only, provided you can power the loads you need to power. Whether 3 hours is long enough to capture enough energy for the rest of the day is the question I guess.

Curious to hear what might be the situation in your part of the world.

I guess you can call it free energy. I have solar and just get the meter fee of 26.98 US per month. So I sell energy back to FPL throughout the year and get a credit in Jan. This credit covers the meter fee for the year. It's a never ending cycle. Been doing this for over three years now.

I'm in North West Florida and under Florida Power and Light (FPL) use to be Gulf Power.

 

[wattmatters]

Rookie numbers

I know.

But frankly needing this much energy is itself a bit insane. I really want to reduce our energy consumption footprint. Our worst day was back in Jan 2018 with 142 kWh. We had a few 100+ kWh days last summer. This is for two homes though and with family staying over the holidays.

I guess you can call it free energy.

Since I am charged nothing for energy imported from the grid (during that time), I call it free. I would not need solar PV to have access to it. Even the energy company calls it "Free".

The other rates and charges are no different to regular plan, so it's not like they are making it up elsewhere.



There is no 1:1 net metering in Australia. We ditched that a decade ago. Focus is and always will be on self consumption of any solar PV generation.

Our solar PV install costs are 1/3rd to 1/2 that of the USA so that definitely helps with the financial rationale.

 

[wattmatters]

I drew 103 kWh between 9PM and 7AM on Christmas Eve last year and close to 50 kWh from 9PM to 11PM. I was charging my battery, my EV and ran 5 space heaters all night long :-D

We have a supply limit of 3 phase x 32 A/phase x 230 V AC, so a theoretical maximal import of 22 kW but the reality is it's very difficult to have each phase loaded up to the 32 A limit.

 

[GregTR]

But frankly needing this much energy is itself a bit insane. I really want to reduce our energy consumption footprint. Our worst day was back in Jan 2018 with 142 kWh. We had a few 100+ kWh days last summer. This is for two homes though and with family staying over the holidays.

Agreed, however it's the impossible to curtail that with summer heat on Texas. I have used over 4MW last August which might seem insane for some European users but in TX it's just par for the course. We also have a fairly large house which is likely the premium we get to enjoy in the US when compared to other countries.

 

[GregTR]

We have a supply limit of 3 phase x 32 A/phase x 230 V AC, so a theoretical maximal import of 22 kW but the reality is it's very difficult to have each phase loaded up to the 32 A limit.

Right, my father lives in Europe so I'm keenly familiar with how difficult/expensive it is to get a lot of power to your home.

In Texas we get 200A on a split phase so I can theoretically draw 48 kW, a number I can't even come close to even with charging my solar battery and car at the same time. My inverter can only manage 63A (15 kW) which is plenty unless I'm charging the car and running the A/C and also have the dryer and oven on.

 

[wattmatters]

In Texas we get 200A on a split phase so I can theoretically draw 48 kW

Our mains fuses are 63 A, so we could potentially draw over 40 kW however the utility placed a limit on our connection a few years ago when we added a second dwelling for my mum. So we had to fit a 32 A 3-phase mains supply breaker. Well we were also given the choice to pay for a local transformer upgrade but at $35-50k I declined.

 

[wattmatters]

it's the impossible to curtail that with summer heat on Texas

I guess it depends a lot on where in Texas. We have two dwellings. A smaller one built with good thermal properties and ours, much larger but with relatively poor thermal properties. Both homes have two occupants.

Our home consumes four times the energy of the smaller home. It's nuts.

 

[wattmatters]

The other rates and charges are no different to regular plan, so it's not like they are making it up elsewhere.

This is the competing plan which also offers free energy period (3 hours every day 11AM-2PM):



Aside from the free period they also offer cheap rates overnight from midnight to 6AM. But the supply charge, ugh.

This plan would be a winner if only I could offset our ducted aircon consumption with battery however I don't have sufficient reserve capacity (power or energy) for that and I ran the numbers, I can't make it work.

 

[OffGridForGood]

More batteries, more PV, MORE!

 

[wattmatters]

I've just pulled the trigger on changing our retail electricity plan - going back to our previous supplier who has just released a new plan with 2-hours of free energy 12-2 PM every day. Previous plan that 2 hours free was just on weekend days.

Lower daily service charge and very low feed-in credit for excess solar but that just emphasises the importance of self-consumption. The other curious aspect is the flat rate tariff. In the context of where I live, AUD 32c/kWh is not awful. It is awful compared with many other parts of the country though.

ESSENTIAL ENERGY NSW
.                        Powershop  Red Energy EV
Supply charge   (¢/day):    129.81   145.40
Peak            (¢/kWh):     32.23    41.75
Shoulder        (¢/kWh):     32.23    35.70
Off-peak        (¢/kWh):     32.23    26.93
Super Off-peak* (¢/kWh):      0.00     0.00
CL1 unit rate   (¢/kWh):     12.17    17.55
Feed-in tariff  (¢/kWh):      1.40     7.00
.
* Super Off-peak periods:
Powershop:  12 PM – 2 PM every day
Red Energy: 12 PM – 2 PM weekends only
.
Note: Red Energy also use a different TOU periods, with a morning peak period 7-9 AM added
      instead of it being the normal Shoulder period.

With two hours every day guaranteed zero cost then I'll change my load controls and battery charging automations accordingly. It will make load management a lot easier.

 

[GregTR]

Since my current plan of free nights (9PM to 7AM) were going to expire in September, my utility provider just called me and offered to renew my contract. Same terms for 36 more months! :-D. The guy doing the call almost fell out of his chair when he saw that my night usage is over 99% :-D.

Want to give me free electricity for 3 more years? Sure, sign me up, buddy!

 

[OffGridForGood]

Put a few EV chargers out front and set a fee for overnight charging...

 

[UberTenere]

Free nights and weekends exist in some parts of my state -Texas. If a person designs it right they can charge from the grid for free And not pull anything from grid during peak hours.

Of course if this caught on the free times would cease and eventually everyone would just disconnect from the grid. It's inevitable

My buddy near Austin Claims he has free power at night, He called me asking about a system to charge at night and discharge during the day. That was a couple years ago and batteries are cheaper now, It may be worth looking into again. It was viable then, more viable now. Just gotta front the cost and sacrifice some garage space.

Cool Concept, My power company has a variable rate plan, but its 4 cents off peak, 54 cents peak. With the level charge plan of 11 cents. plus the monthly meter fee was $15 more. Just not worth it even with solar. lol pay 5x more peak and only save 60% off peak.

 

[wattmatters]

I've just pulled the trigger on changing our retail electricity plan - going back to our previous supplier who has just released a new plan with 2-hours of free energy 12-2 PM every day.

Since then we've imported 1.15 MWh of free energy, an average of 5.7 kWh/day. Mostly used to supplementary charge our home battery and EV, as well as cover other household consumption. It would be higher but of course it coincides with the time of day our our PV output is highest, so our overall consumption during those hours is far higher.

 

[OffGridForGood]

Since then we've imported 1.15 MWh of free energy, an average of 5.7 kWh/day. Mostly used to supplementary charge our home battery and EV, as well as cover other household consumption. It would be higher but of course it coincides with the time of day our our PV output is highest, so our overall consumption during those hours is far higher.

Do they limit the amount of power you can take at the free-rate ?
ie if you have a utility service capable of 48kW continuous output, can you pull 48x2 = 96kWh during those two free hours...or do they set a max current?