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What's so bad about selling to utility wholesale?

If it's not too far OT I'd appreciate some comments on that - a blend of off grid and grid tied pv. Best of both worlds? Too many complications?
Go have a look at the thread linked in my signature line. This is exactly what I have ended up with. Whether it makes sense for you depends on various factors. It's working for me.

I wish I had mini splits which I could run via my off-grid system but we have a reverse cycle ducted aircon system and it's power and energy consumption is a bit high for off-grid use so it is covered in the daytime by the grid-PV but draws from the grid at night. Mini splits were not an option for us due to the way the house is built.
 
For the small “screw you money” they offer , I’m not interested in even gettin a check in the mail from those people…to much work to open the letter…I want to be totally be off their radar… I am nobody.. I don’t exist…they are nobody ..they don’t exist ..
I don’t wanna know them and don’t want them to know me…
that’s how I feel about sharks…

I tried to be sorta clear on my feelings here…..Do you kinda get my drift..?
Completely agree here.
The fewer people know what/where of my routines, the better. Hence why I don't bother attempting any kind of deduction.
 
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Opinions are like *ssh*les, everone has one... So a bit long winded but IMNSHO,

The cheapest/fastest way to implement working Solar is on-grid with micro-inverters, depending on what your grid connection costs are (control boxes, electricians, inspectors, permits, etc). In this way you just dump all your excess solar output to the LPC when your demand is low, and the LPC buffers your demand when it exceeds your output. That being said, cost savings depends on how much you can lower your demand from the local power company, and how much they may give you for what you push to them. It's actually pretty good here in Arizona.

The minute you push batteries in the mix, if you still want to grid-tie, you may as well get one of the newer all in one's and skip the micro-inverters, just run your panels in series and get string voltages up. This really only helps you flatten your peak demand slightly unless you get enough inverter output to run your whole house. At this point, you can use PV to charge your batteries when your demand is low, and batteries to to cover when your demand is high. This is where I think it get's interesting, and less useful to pay for the additional expense of grid-tie & sell back.

I'm literally putting panels on the roof today/this weekend. It's 108F (3pm) so I quit until later. I will have 14KW of panels hooked to a pair of EG4 18K's. I have 30K of battery, the "18"K is PV input, they each have 12KW of output. I've been load testing, the setup struggles a bit starting the 4T A/C but with the soft-start kit, it just blinks, instead of browning-out for 500ms or so. Note: Grid tie would eliminate that issue. The power company has enough reserve joules, to keep the voltage from dropping too low.

To start with I will not be tied at all. I have enough 'solar/battery generation' ability to output 100A. So for now I have moved everything (All my loads) to a 100A (125 de-rated) panel and I have a 100A transfer switch with feeds from the grid, and from my solar inverters. The goal is to remove all peak usage, that is between 1300-2000 M-F, when in June and July the cost is a little under $0.25/kwh. Off-Peak is a hair over $0.08/kwh. To the point of the other poster, this is really a hobby. But in this case, I will just take myself off-grid as long as I have enough juice. Based on my testing, I can run 4 full hours from the batteries only (Charged off-peak from the grid :) ). My mean load is around 5kw, so at some point in the evening the PV output will drop below 5KW, and I'll have at least 4 hours before I need help from the grid, and that will definitely be well after 8PM, we have some sun until 7PM or so.

Now these 18K's fully support grid tie, and I MIGHT do something with that, but some things must happen before that is cost-effective. Mostly I'll need to actually produce electricity that I am not using, because I don't need a buffer. Pushing my own electrons at my loads is always going to be more cost effective than selling it to the LPC. 14K of panels with about 6 hours equivalent full sun/day is 84KWH at best. Last summer this time my daily usage was closer to 105kw/day based on my bill. That puts me about 20KWH short at best, reality is things are likely to be significantly lower, how much lower I will be finding out shortly.

For me, grid-tie/sell back woutld be after I double my panels and batteries, just to cover the meter charges and whatnot, so I can keep it as a backup. ie get my electricity cost to 0. This is going to be interesting. My July/Aug bills last year were very close to $400. The Winter peaks are 0500-0900,1700-2100 so those are going to be more interesting. I have an SBC running a bunch of sensors and relays to keep my peak demand under 100A. I will have to tie it into the inverters for a bit finer control come November. First upgrade is obviously more panels. Having Fun!
 
Specifically a system to power a (or some) mini-splits to assist my 35+ year old undersized air conditioning during peak rates and declining production, 4-9 pm. Or a stand alone system for my pool equipment. If it's not too far OT I'd appreciate some comments on that - a blend of off grid and grid tied pv. Best of both worlds? Too many complications?

I would buy a used grid-tie inverter (e.g. Sunny Boy SWR 2500U or 5000US or whatever) and connect it behind the power switch of pool pump or A/C.
After switch turns on, it waits 5 minutes then backfeeds the grid. Sized no larger than your load, no net backfeed actually occurs.

Connect 2 PV strings, one tilted and oriented SE or SSE, the other SW or SSW.

The fancier version is find something that supports export limit with CT. Install like any other GT PV, and configure so it's export plus your existing system doesn't exceed your max allowed export.
 
I would buy a used grid-tie inverter (e.g. Sunny Boy SWR 2500U or 5000US or whatever) and connect it behind the power switch of pool pump or A/C.
After switch turns on, it waits 5 minutes then backfeeds the grid. Sized no larger than your load, no net backfeed actually occurs.

Connect 2 PV strings, one tilted and oriented SE or SSE, the other SW or SSW.

The fancier version is find something that supports export limit with CT. Install like any other GT PV, and configure so it's export plus your existing system doesn't exceed your max allowed export.
Mini splits are variable load- can be 2500w or 40w so I'm not sure that would work so well with a mini split
 
In that case, you'd like to feed PV DC directly to HV DC bus of VFD. but may be hard to keep voltage within range. A HV MPPT would be desired.

Are there PV direct units you might install, with AC powering them to the extent they drop below some voltage?
 
People may not like the limited credit they get for exporting energy but if it's going to do nothing else useful or be curtailed why would you not take it and provide some clean energy into the grid?
 
Pacific Gas & Electric being one of 3 big power companies in California. Why are they so unpopular?
 
People may not like the limited credit they get for exporting energy but if it's going to do nothing else useful or be curtailed why would you not take it and provide some clean energy into the grid?
Because they want to charge you to give them your power? As long as there is no cost to me, I'm fine with it. In fact if it would just cover my meter charge ($20/mo here), that would be fine. Some people are saying their LPC's are a little goofy about taking their power. Keeping in mind the cost of the connection in the first place.
 
As far as I know. The power companies don't allow the export credits to be applied to non metered fees.
 
Pacific Gas & Electric being one of 3 big power companies in California. Why are they so unpopular?
Judging from this and other forums, I think all of the Investor Owned Utilitiess are unpopular. There are still municipal utilities that are not regulated by the CPUC and they all have rates which are less expensive that the IOUs. The CPUC is even less popular in my mind than the three IOUs they regulate.
 
The MAN is always unpopular.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere!
So it's not due to any specific actions or policies and more of a resentment of authority in general?
If that's the case then it seems that NOTHING they do would ever make some people happy.
 
Hey, if we could do that as a charitable contribution to someone in need, so they received the power we delivered at no cost, we might even do that.
But not as a contribution to PG&E.
This is the bit I don't understand - that people believe power companies are making some kind of profit off our excess solar PV.

In general, feed-in tariffs here are fairly reflective of the average spot wholesale value of the energy at the time it is being supplied to the grid. And (aside from any carbon abatement value) that's all it's worth, indeed given it is a largely non-controllable supply it really should be valued less than grid generators' wholesale price as they have to comply with supply contract standards and market operator directions for ramping up/down supply. Meanwhile I can add or remove supply at will and there's nothing the market operator can do about it.

That the feed-in tariff is fraction of the retail import tariff at that time is simply due to the fact retail tariffs incur various other charges aside from the wholesale cost of energy but it's not like the power companies are making money from it.

If anything FITs are a bit on the generous side. Places with 1:1 net metering, well that's just unsustainable. We ditched that nonsense the best part of a decade ago.

Because they want to charge you to give them your power?
I said nothing about being charged to export. If you are being charged to export then I agree and can understand not wanting to export.

This happens here for those who choose to be on wholesale cost pass through arrangements - they need to have good control over their home's energy system so as to avoid exporting at times when spot wholesale prices are negative.

And this is the issue with "selling to the utility wholesale" - it can be a good thing but you need a way to automatically micromanage when you import/export and at what power level since an individual has zero control over the price of the commodity and that prices is typically highly variable.

It means the home solar PV system is no longer a consumer application but more of a prosumer application. It just seems like an awful lot of effort and risk for not a lot of return.
 
Ok, now we're getting somewhere!
So it's not due to any specific actions or policies and more of a resentment of authority in general?
If that's the case then it seems that NOTHING they do would ever make some people happy.
Fair treatment is all that is needed.
Mandated bs, is no longer acceptable.
The government is their puppet.
 
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As far as I know. The power companies don't allow the export credits to be applied to non metered fees.
I guess that varies by region. Here a credit for exporting is a separate line item and hence applies to the total bill. Indeed each month my retailer issues an invoice covering all fees and charges and a credit note covering my exports to the grid, and the balance of the two is what I pay (unless the balance is a credit, in which case it carries forward to the next month).
 
I guess that varies by region. Here a credit for exporting is a separate line item and hence applies to the total bill. Indeed each month my retailer issues an invoice covering all fees and charges and a credit note covering my exports to the grid, and the balance of the two is what I pay (unless the balance is a credit, in which case it carries forward to the next month).
That's not the case, here.
Export credits only apply to metered charges.
 
Pacific Gas & Electric being one of 3 big power companies in California. Why are they so unpopular?

Ok, now we're getting somewhere!
So it's not due to any specific actions or policies and more of a resentment of authority in general?
If that's the case then it seems that NOTHING they do would ever make some people happy.

It is specific actions. Same with AT&T. And I own stock in both, used to choose not to switch to a different provider.

Because they proposed charging a "photon tax" of $12/month per kW of PV panel on my roof.
Together with their proposed credit for backfeed, I'd actually have to pay them net dollars for power I exported to the grid. In addition to net dollars for power I made and used locally.

As far as I know. The power companies don't allow the export credits to be applied to non metered fees.

I think my credits, calculated at 100% of retail for whatever time of day, may only count as dollars toward retail power I use.

If I've exported net kWh as of the end of the year, I think that is credited around $0.025/kWh carried forward as a credit on my bill, applied to the $10/month connect fee.

I'm actually not sure whether the net metering credits would be applied to monthly minimum charge because last year I had dollar credits exceeding those.
 
This is the bit I don't understand - that people believe power companies are making some kind of profit off our excess solar PV.

In general, feed-in tariffs here are fairly reflective of the average spot wholesale value of the energy at the time it is being supplied to the grid. And (aside from any carbon abatement value) that's all it's worth, indeed given it is a largely non-controllable supply it really should be valued less than grid generators' wholesale price as they have to comply with supply contract standards and market operator directions for ramping up/down supply. Meanwhile I can add or remove supply at will and there's nothing the market operator can do about it.

If the government orders me to install rooftop PV (in the event I buy/build a new house), which costs 3x utility scale PV plant, they can d*mn well order PG&E to credit me 3x wholesale for the power. Considering it flows out of my house and into the neighbor's, without even going through a transformer much less a transmission line, it is not only more efficiently delivered than what PG&E buys from a power plant, it also lets them get away with not upgrading infrastructure as much.

I said nothing about being charged to export. If you are being charged to export then I agree and can understand not wanting to export.

Both PG&E and CPUC thought that was a good idea.
Governor Newsom does have to worry about the voters.
 
it also lets them get away with not upgrading infrastructure as much.
Your situation appears pretty sub-optimal.

But on this point about infrastructure - here the infrastructure for supporting an increase distributed solar PV is a bottleneck.

My local region has seen tighter export limits imposed recently simply because the distribution infrastructure isn't able to manage the high levels of daytime PV. We are now experiencing scenarios in some places where the grid demand for entire distribution zone is less than the rooftop PV supply coming from homes. That's no simple pass through of power to a neighbour. Mine certainly doesn't go to a neighbour since they all have solar PV. It has to go much further upstream to be consumed.

Distribution companies are being required to upgrade infrastructure to enable the network to handle more distributed PV - it's a requirement for them to be permitted to apply any form of export charge. We are seeing the benefits of this in some areas, e.g. in parts of regional Victoria there have been very low export power caps, often zero, applies to homes installing solar PV. But after infrastructure improvements many of those areas have had those restrictions lifted.

Given our FITs are not high to begin with (in VIC it's ~US3.3 c/kWh) then it's not a big difference for people's billing, but a typical basic 6.6 kW PV system in VIC will export about 5.5 MWh/year, for a credit of ~A$180. It's not a lot but it's better than a poke in the stick with a sharp brown eye.

Our distribution companies are tightly regulated and have mandated revenue caps which are published in advance. If they want to increase a fee for service, they are required to reduce their fees elsewhere.
 

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