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“Normal” Cell Delta at Charge Voltage

I did some research and some of the consensus is to go no higher than 3.2V for the start of active balance because under high charging current, a "soft" cell can run away. I've decided to try stepping it up in .1V increments. I've set 3.1V today and will watch for a week and then if all looks well, bump it to 3.2V.
 
I did some research and some of the consensus is to go no higher than 3.2V for the start of active balance because under high charging current, a "soft" cell can run away. I've decided to try stepping it up in .1V increments. I've set 3.1V today and will watch for a week and then if all looks well, bump it to 3.2V.
I think you meant to say 3.4V.

Here's what my packs look like with JBD passive balancing set to start ~3.4V.
Note - pack 2, the newest, was not top balanced...
 

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The video presenter said "no higher than 3.2V" for the cell balance threshold. I see no reason not to go higher, as my cell voltage is at 3.5V right now, being nearly fully charged, but I want to walk this up in .1V increments and watch it carefully.
 
I operate an 18650 3.0v -> 4.2v chemistry - which has a littler wider voltage range the LifePo4 but you might find my comments helpful.

I have large powerwall with 126 x 100p packs of various cell types - e.g. analogous to 126 x 260ah LifePo4 cells. My max difference ranges from 30mv-70mv (tight balance) up to 50mv-90mv after 9 months of no balance. Since I have different cell types (different manufacturers, slightly different charge/discharge curves) it's impossible for me to be perfectly balanced all thru the charge/discharge curve.

A couple of principles for you to think about...

Since I operate in the middle DOD (3.5v -> 4.0v) a 90mv max difference means worst case I could have a few cells at 4.09v hi and 3.41v low - neither is near the max of 4.2v hi or 3.0v low - so there's no operational risk. For example, I'm running 80mv max difference right this second....
1715457609550.png

Given the above, it's not the daily difference that's so important, it's how fast does it changes over the cycles/months of operation with no balance. I find that healthy cells don't need much balance. I do touch-up balances every 9 months or so when the drift reaches 50-100mv max difference and bring it back to 30-70mv.

To conclude - if you're cells are close (58mv max difference in you're example) and do not affect you're desired hi / low operating voltage range and they stay that way day after day - then I wouldn't worry too much and just monitor to make sure you're BMS keeps them within what you need. :)
 
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To conclude - if you're cells are close (58mv max difference in you're example) and do not affect you're desired hi / low operating voltage range and they stay that way day after day - then I wouldn't worry too much and just monitor to make sure you're BMS keeps them within what you need. :)

In relatively static conditions (low charge or discharge rate) my Cell delta is around 0.015V. It's during aggressive charging in full sun late morning when the batteries are nearing full charge that the balance now goes out as much as 0.15V or an order of magnitude more delta. I think that's normal though. All three banks behave in similar fashion.
 
Cell deviations always appear after 3.400Vpc and with a deviation of 0.030 @ 3.500 is still in chuckle worthy territory as it's insignificant.... now 0.100 out is cause for an eyebrow raise & closer look. The main reason a lot of folks have issues with battery packs & balancing is 95% of the time because they charge BEYOND the working voltage range.
I am studying to better understand the voltage deviations in brand new EVE LF280k v3 cells I purchased from Docan in Texas. They were promoted as Grade A cells. I recently put a 48 v battery bank together, top balanced, and really liked the 0.004 v diff spread of 15 out of 16 cells while testing Discharge down to 20% soc, then Charging @ 30 amps back up to full. I did NOT Like seeing one cell acting oddly, and thinking of that one cell as a Faulty Grade A Cell, while wondering if maybe it might be viewed as acceptable to Docan if it still can put out 280 ahs. ... Here's from my notes on that one cell: On Discharge, @ 58% soc on my JK BMS, this one cell was @ .068v diff below the other 15 cells that all remained at 0.004 v or less diff throughout my discharge and charge testing. At 22% soc, that one off cell reached .119v diff lower than all the others during a -68 amp draw. That seemed alarming to me. Then on a 30 amp Charge up to full, my notes show a .053 diff above all the other cells (a spike) at 53.98 battery voltage heading to 100% and
Full. My BMS protection eventually prevented me from charging to full. ... Fortunately, I had purchased 2 extra cells for maintenance down the road with the exact same v3 cell chemistry. After replacing my Odd Ball Cell with one of my two extras, my 48 Volt Battery is performing great, testing down to 30 % soc, then charging back up 100% w a Bulk Charge setting of 56.8 v. The good news is ... I now have a Grade A 48 Volt Battery I Really Like. My BMS now shows .004 diff for all 16 cells, from 100% soc, down to 30% soc, then back up to 100% soc, with .010 v diff showing on 1st full charge that later settled to .004 v diff at 56.68 volts with No BMS protection trigger for one cell going over 3.650 volts. Yehhhh ... My Question to readers of this thread is about what to think about my odd ball cell that was promoted to me as a "Grade A" Cell. Would You consider it Defective ??? and worthy of a replacement ? Could it be considered an ok cell if it measures out having 280 ahs ??? I am wondering what various opinions might be on that question. I Will Appreciate input on this, and I will also share my feedback from Jenny Wu (my sales person)!at Docan (which is just in an initial dialog phase while I am pondering on a bit of a puzzling response. I am wanting to find my best simple higher quality questions to draw out Docan on its' policy for dealing with my kind of situation. Any help towards that goal will be appreciated.
 

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I have not dealt with Docan but many here have. They seem to be an A-Typical average reseller. A runner cell is a PITA and it happens when they are not properly Matched & Batched but Docan only Voltage & IR match (mostly) at storage volts and that's not worth much. You bought 2 extra cells, that was smart and now you see why. So you now have a Good Spare (assumed) and a flaky one. I would not hold my breath for much TBH. 1 Cell = $60 toss away insurance.
 
I have not dealt with Docan but many here have. They seem to be an A-Typical average reseller. A runner cell is a PITA and it happens when they are not properly Matched & Batched but Docan only Voltage & IR match (mostly) at storage volts and that's not worth much. You bought 2 extra cells, that was smart and now you see why. So you now have a Good Spare (assumed) and a flaky one. I would not hold my breath for much TBH. 1 Cell = $60 toss away insurance.
Thank you Steve S. I have really learned allot from your postings. I have used Docan Battery based in China w a warehouse in Texas for 6 days shipping time in tracked well packaged boxes to my home in California. The puzzling response I got back from Jenny Wu at Docan (sales person handling my purchase) after my initial email about having an issue was this (exact quote ): "This is because there is voltage difference between this cell and others. You only need to discharge each cells to 2.7V, and then charge them together to 3.65V". ... My First Thoughts were: How Could that fix the voltage diff swings I do not like or want in a new battery cell. I could try that idea on my one problem cell and mix it in to a 24v battery bank I just top balanced, that I am assembling and testing next: I would do a second top balance too, for testing w all with same LF280k v3 chemistry. Got to say that Jenny Wu Docan response seems like a time suck idea. .. I am wondering what 0.xxx volt diffs (aside from spiking that prevents full charge) might qualify at Docan for a cell return, and replacement. ... I will ask to see if I can get a straight response.
 
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charge them together to 3.65V". .

This is a top balance. Recommended by those with a lot more experience than me.

It does take time but it is well worth it.

If the runner is still there then the spare mentioned is Good insurance.

Getting a new swap out would be a plus if it happens. I have not worked with this supplier so can not speak to this.
 
Thank you Steve S. I have really learned allot from your postings. I have used Docan Battery based in China w a warehouse in Texas for 6 days shopping to my home in California in very well packaged Boca of 2 cells each. The puzzling response I got message back from Jenny Wu at Docan (sales person handling my purchase) after my initial email about having an issue with one cell while still testing; before my above fuller story. This is an exact quote I received back: "This is because there is voltage difference between this cell and others. You only need to discharge each cells to 2.7V, and then charge them together to 3.65V". ... Could that fix the voltage diff swings (I will get her opinion next) I could try that idea on my one problem cell and mix it in to a 24v battery bank I just top balanced, that I am assembling and testing next: All with same LF280k v3 chemistry. Got to say that Jenny Wu Docan response seems like a time suck idea. And I am wondering what might qualify at Docan for a return, and replacement.
I did not yet read the EVE spec sheet for LF280K v3. .. but have recently read outside this forum via questions to Google AI, that cycling brand new LiFePO4 Prismatic cells down to bottom voltage, and then charging back up to full, 2 or 3 times is a way to activate it's cell chemistry, plus help em last longer and perform better after that. While, I have not yet read that theme in this forum, I wonder if that has been discussed. I have heard stories from a fav member in this thread about his reviving some messed up drained and freeze exposed LiFePO4 cells by draining em down to bottom soc, and charging back up to full at 30 amps; which is similar to what Jenny Wu at Docan has told me to do for my one brand new misbehaving LF280K cell : : getting 0.050 v to 0.120v diff in discharge to 20% soc, and 0.040 to 0.055v diff when charging back 100% soc with 2 amp balancing activated at top. I have decided to test Jenny Wu of Docan directions on just one cell, and mix it in with a 24v battery of the same new cells I have here, and building next. I want to see how my messed up cell behaves after that. While I think it will most likely be a waste of my time, I am interested to see if it makes any difference. Also, since I am heading to my Costa Rica hangout for a few months soon, I may not finish that test until a later date. Wondering if any LiFePO4 suppliers recommend what Jenny Wu of Docan told me (draining down to 2.7 volts, then charge to full) ? ... In some ways I am still a newbie learning more all the time ;+) I just have 6 .. . DIY LiFePO4 Battery Banks under my belt: one 12v, three 24v, two 48v, and cells w JK BMS for my 7th build :+)
 
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