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18 month DIY project finally done: 39kW inverter power off grid system

Hmm I wonder what the increase would be for say 20 panels (potentially a case for the Jumbo 650+W panels)
Good question. I have no idea how they are calculating the rates and if this is nearly the same for all home insurance companies. The only difference seems to be if the PV panels are installed on the roof or a different structure (e.g. detached garage or ground mount). In case of roof mounted, the dwelling coverage increases and this results in a premium increase. I don't expect that 20 panels would be just half of my price with 40 panels, there must be a base PV amount plus a factor times number of panels.
The best is to just call your insurance and ask them.
 
Good question. I have no idea how they are calculating the rates and if this is nearly the same for all home insurance companies. The only difference seems to be if the PV panels are installed on the roof or a different structure (e.g. detached garage or ground mount). In case of roof mounted, the dwelling coverage increases and this results in a premium increase. I don't expect that 20 panels would be just half of my price with 40 panels, there must be a base PV amount plus a factor times number of panels.
The best is to just call your insurance and ask them.
Thanks, yeah I won't put up with such nonsense it's all ground mount or outbuildings (non dwellings) for me.
 
No
The inverter is never in parallel with the grid in SBU mode. (AC input Relay open)

Because once, it's gone thru S and then B, it's passing thru U to loads and charging the battery with it. For us stoopid folk, the inverter is essentially operating in reverse as a charger and can't possibly feedback to the grid since it's purely a load at this point.
 
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No
The inverter is never in parallel with the grid in SBU mode. (AC input Relay open)
But in case the AIO is switching to bypass mode while running in SBU mode (because the voltage of setting in program 12 has been reached - "point back to utility") I guess the "AC input relay" is closed to enable bypass. Am I correct, that in this "SBU in bypass situation" both AIO H-Bridge and grid are connected in parallel - even if the H-Bridge is not working in inverting mode in this case but in pass through charging mode?!
 
But in case the AIO is switching to bypass mode while running in SBU mode (because the voltage of setting in program 12 has been reached - "point back to utility") I guess the "AC input relay" is closed to enable bypass. Am I correct, that in this "SBU in bypass situation" both AIO H-Bridge and grid are connected in parallel - even if the H-Bridge is not working in inverting mode in this case but in pass through charging mode?!
Yes, as a load (charger) only.
 
Some updates about my usage and production data and how much grid support is required.

For the current weather situation (official city temperatures between 105°F and 115°F and nearly every day with full sun and no clouds):
  • 90kWh daily usable solar energy (120kWh PV with 25% conversion losses)
  • Daily average house consumption is around 115kWh
  • As a result I need an average daily grid support of 25kWh
  • Solar saves me about $430 per month and my monthly energy bill will be around $130 in these hot summer month (instead of $560)
  • If the max. temperatures stay below 100°F my daily consumption is below 90kWh and I can cover the whole house load with PV without any grid support.
  • I estimate to need grid only in June, July and August (and maybe some days in September).
  • With this assumptions, current data over the last 6 weeks since solar was installed and past year energy bill data, I may end up with annual realistic savings of $3,000
Btw. I'm still fine tuning the algorithm when and how long I want to be connected to the grid (for partly recharging the batteries and covering the house load while grid is connected). I'ts tricky because I don't want to waste PV energy but I want to leave the batteries in a healthy SOC range. On top of that I want to achieve every couple of days a recharge to 100% SOC to reset the SOC counter inside the batteries (they will drift a lot, even after 2-3 days not recharging to 100%).
The connect/disconnect of the AC-in contactors and "back-to-grid" and "back-to-battery" algorithms and mechanisms with the smart home integration works without issues.
 
Man, I think you should be doing much better. To me the only thing that matters is SOC. TOU (SRP) is 2-8 or something (They changed it). Significant solar output drops off at 1800, that means I only need 2 hours of battery each M-F evening to maximize savings, any other time cost is fairly low, wall time doesn't matter. I have 60KWH of batteries like you, making it thru the nite, not so much last summer with only 30.

I have 18KW of PV 4KW of it is ancient 250W CS panels. All the panels are heavy with dust some bird poop. I hit 105KWH today and I clipped for 3 hours. The orange bar is output from the inverter I generally see a 15% total loss PV-> output. Note the output includes that produced from the batteries which were charged during the solar window. Today is not yet finished. Your 25% numbers seem steep, and your production seems low. My panels are far from optimal, the 250's face west 1/2 are almost flat. I have not dropped to the grid since February.

1718250627778.png

I have an independent sensor monitoring my panel it tracks within less than 1% of the inverters output numbers. I was clipping between 1345 and 1600 today, PV was tracking load, batteries at 100%. You can see the orange lines are both basically identical. You can see the blue PV line start tracking output a little after 1330. The little load tester was home today only 4 loads of laundry (green). My HWH and clothes dryer are on the same circuit with a share box. Her EV was not plugged in. HVAC pretty much a solid yellow line after 1000. Batteries are dipping into the 30's / SOC, last year I was flipping to the grid around midnight most nights when 30K of batteries hit 10%. As far as switching to grid, I'd just let it flop when charge is 10% or whatever. Let it kick on as soon as the charge hits 15 or so in the morning. Your numbers are interesting, they seem dissapointing. Still saving a decent chunk of change.

1718252541004.png
 
Man, I think you should be doing much better. To me the only thing that matters is SOC. TOU (SRP) is 2-8 or something (They changed it). Significant solar output drops off at 1800, that means I only need 2 hours of battery each M-F evening to maximize savings, any other time cost is fairly low, wall time doesn't matter. I have 60KWH of batteries like you, making it thru the nite, not so much last summer with only 30.
It's hard for me to compare these systems from all the different perspectives... and I don't know where I may do much better and improve things...

First of all, I don't have a TOU plan, instead I use a base plan where the fist 400kWh are a bit cheaper compared to every kWh above this (the average is about $0.13 per kWh here with UniSource Energy.

In this situation it doesn't matter for me at what time I need grid support, regarding the price. It's just that I need to cover the missing energy part from the grid (idealy with as low as possible recharging the batteries from the grid to minimize the losses). In other words, I need to let the grid connected as long as the missing part of energy (per day) gets consumed from the grid (either save it from the battery or by not using PV) before I disconnect the grid again. The point in time when the grid will be connected is set to 7% SOC.

In SBU mode, the AIO's are only charging from grid (if connected) in case there is no PV available (the grid charging current can't be set lower than 2A per AIO). So ideally the AIO's should be connected to the grid after PV production has started.

I have 18KW of PV 4KW of it is ancient 250W CS panels. All the panels are heavy with dust some bird poop. I hit 105KWH today and I clipped for 3 hours. The orange bar is output from the inverter I generally see a 15% total loss PV-> output. Note the output includes that produced from the batteries which were charged during the solar window. Today is not yet finished. Your 25% numbers seem steep, and your production seems low. My panels are far from optimal, the 250's face west 1/2 are almost flat. I have not dropped to the grid since February.

View attachment 221810
If I compare your PV production and load with mine for these days between 06/06 and 06/12)
1718286263495.png

I have a daily average of about 35kWh more load to cover compared to your situation.

My PV system generates a daily average of about 19kWh more (with similar 18kWp installation) compared to your system - maybe because of less clouds? newer panels? Cleaner panels? Better orientation? etc. My panel orientation is also not optimal (5.06kWp north, 2.76kWp east, 7.82kWp south, 2.76kWp west).

You need 35kWh less daily load and I produce 19kWh more PV which results in in a gap between our two systems of about 16kWh less consumption for your situation compared with mine. This are a bit more than 3 batteries or about 27% SOC (for a 60kWh battery) which you can save compared to my situation.

Your overall efficiency of about 85% compared to my 75% which gives you also an advantage (your AIO's are more efficient and you only use 2 in parallel and I use 6 in parallel with higher idle consumption per unit).

I have an independent sensor monitoring my panel it tracks within less than 1% of the inverters output numbers. I was clipping between 1345 and 1600 today, PV was tracking load, batteries at 100%. You can see the orange lines are both basically identical. You can see the blue PV line start tracking output a little after 1330. The little load tester was home today only 4 loads of laundry (green). My HWH and clothes dryer are on the same circuit with a share box. Her EV was not plugged in. HVAC pretty much a solid yellow line after 1000. Batteries are dipping into the 30's / SOC, last year I was flipping to the grid around midnight most nights when 30K of batteries hit 10%. As far as switching to grid, I'd just let it flop when charge is 10% or whatever. Let it kick on as soon as the charge hits 15 or so in the morning. Your numbers are interesting, they seem dissapointing. Still saving a decent chunk of change.
So I would like to understand why my number are disappointing and where do you think they should be better or what I may improve to get better performance?

Here are my similar charts for the the same time range from my system. In this situation my grid connection time range is not yet optimized. It was connected between 2:15am and 5:45pm and it started at an SOC of 3% in this case. I still need to adjust this as described above (connect to grid at about 7%-10% SOC and ideally move this point in time after solar production starts - to do this I need to predict a day before, with how much SOC I need to start into the night).
1718288204622.png
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I want to start a deeper look/discussion about the topic:

"find an optimized strategy how to use the grid to support an off-grid system (grid just as a backup)"

The obvious strategy is to use the SOC and define two borders. If the SOC will fall below the programmed value for "BackToGrid", the grid is used and if the SOC will exceed the programmed value for "BackToBattery", the grid usage will end. This is how we all usually use this well known mechanism. Depending if using closed loop communication with the batteries BMS or not, both trigger values may be specified in % SOC or in battery voltages.

After some days of required grid support for my system, I realize that there should be better strategies to use the grid support (if required). I see two main disadvantages while using these two parameters in a typical static way to decide if grid is used or not:
  • The batteries are always used to a (very) low SOC value
    • not really bad but also not very good for long term healthiness
    • the SOC counter inside the BMS will not be resetting very often
  • The minimum remaining SOC is obviously very low which increases the risk to not have enough energy available in case it's night AND the grid will be down AND the remaining SOC is very low
What if it would be possible to "pre-use" the grid support before a low SOC has been reached which usually triggers the grid usage which would save the remaining battery capacity for later usage (just to shift it)? For sure, a minimum SOC (or voltage) should be implemented in this rule to not run into a low battery shutdown. Also the energy from the grid should not be too high to not clip the PV production. It needs to be balanced!

The question are
  • when to use the grid
  • how much energy should be drawn from the grid

If I would know how much energy I need from the grid to make it over the next 24h (to fill the gap) I would be able to use grid support at any time which makes sense. In fact this would lead to a dynamic usage of the "BackToGrid" parameter.

E.g. (assuming a 60kWh battery) If I would know I need 20kWh grid support to make it over the next 24h, I could use the grid if the SOC will drop under 66% (but in fact, it could be any point in time when the grid is used). It's not required to use the grid to recharge the batteries back to 100% (I don't want to recharge the batteries from the grid because of efficiency losses), but instead the grid may just drive the house load as long as the 20kWh are consumed from the grid and after that, the grid usage will be ended! When the next PV production starts and because of the usage forecast and PV forecast, you can assume that the PV will be able to recharge the batteries over the day back to 100% - because you already filled the daily energy gap with the grid in advance (while not using the battery).

One condition to do this is the flexible integration of the AIO's into a smart home system to be able to monitor various online parameters, some forecast values, some previous usage values and to control the two values for "BackToGrid" and "BackToBattery" remotely via automated rules.

Given the following data will be available online (while using always and only the SBU mode):

parameterdescription
current SOC of the batteriesaverage SOC from all batteries via SA (SolarAssistant)
current AIO working modefrom AIO's via SA, e.g. "Solar/Battery", "Grid", etc.
current battery voltages seen by the AIO'sfrom AIO's via SA
PV production forecast (for the next day)smart home solar plugin (e.g. Solcast, Forecast.Solar, etc.)
Weather forecast with the max./min. temperaturesmart home weather plugin (e.g. via api.weather.gov, etc.)
total energy usage of the house from previous daysmart home house energy consumption plugin (e.g Emporia, etc.).
(SA does not provide this data on a daily basis, only for the current week. It may be used to calculate the energy usage for the last day but not very accurate)

With this parameters it should be possible to implement a better grid usage strategy.

In my case our whole house energy consumption depends highly on the max. outside temperature because the central heat pump is the main load of the house. The other high house loads are more or less constant over the days (cooking, hot water, etc.). In my case, I don't have a TOU grid plan, so it doesn't matter from a cost perspective when I pre-use the grid - this may be different for others and could be taken into account with the algorithm.

I've already started to implement this strategies in my smart home rules and will try to fine tune it over the time.

Btw. While adjusting the values of "BackToGrid" and "BackToBattery" via SolarAssistant (via MQTT) the AIO will suddenly change it's running mode. This is key to be able to implement such a strategy. To force the AIO into the "Grid" mode (bypass) I set the value of "BackToGrid" just 1V higher than the current battery voltage seen by the AIO (if using closed loop communication, the value could be set to 1% higher as the current SOC). The "BackToBattery" parameter will be used vice versa to force the AIO back to battery after the amount of grid energy has been consumed. After the AIO's mode has been changed, the original values for both settings will be reverted to very low or very high value (like disable).

What do you think about this strategy?
 
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I really think you are over-complicating it, especially if it doesn't matter dollar-wise when you save the power. I'd definitely not even mess with it at that granular/complex level. I'm not seeing where moving output from time X to time Y is going to accomplish much. Yesterday was a bad solar day, about 70KWH down here with the clouds in the valley. GF decided it was a 5 loads of laundry day, and it was brutally hot. I kicked to the grid at 22:00 and back to the inverters at 07:30, first time since February. It's gonna cost me $2-3 to do that effing laundry (she did 5 the day before as well, deep into the evening on battery, I mean REALLY?). Just suck the batteries dry (to some threshold) and flip-over to the grid.

You start with empty batteries, at sun-up you flip the inverters on once the batteries reach a minimum threshold and run all your loads, collecting excess production in your batteries during the day when the sun is shining. When the sun goes down you use that collected energy the rest of the evening possibly into the next morning, possibly until solar production ramps up. If you are short, you may shut down. Your grid exposure is that window however small or large it may be, between shutdown and solar ramp up.

When your batteries get to 100% you leave power on the table. Thus it behooves you use whatever you have stored if needed, to the point of being dry once solar production starts in the morning to maximize storage fill. To my earlier comment, you do not seem to be getting to 100% with similar capacity to me, which I think is disappointing, none-the less I don't see where fiddling with saving battery capacity for use the next day is going to have any significant impact on your electric bill. If you were trying to keep a reserve for a power outage/failure, the simplest thing is to raise the "dry" threshold with enough power to handle the number of buffer hours you want. Further you could set your grid-down threshold much lower, say 20% cuts to the grid. If the grid fails, allow the inverters to run it down to 5%, this gives you 15% of your battery in the event the grid fails during non-solar production / low battery hours. Tweaking this window could save you a few pennies. Literally pennies, but for fun maybe.

At the core I see only two thresholds:
1) Minimum SOC to allow inverter to turn on
2) Minimum SOC at which point the inveters should be off

I'd put at least a 5% gap to keep a cloudy morning from toggling the system off and on excessively.

All that being said . . . I would put an independent sensor/logging device on your mains as a sanity check, if you don't have it already. I rolled my own with timestamps and code, you may want to just put something on the inverter output bus to see if your getting honest numbers. I'd also spend some effort on your panel output I really think it's low. Do you have shading or anything? It's not yet 12:00 and both banks of batteries are well over 50% from 10 and 8 at 06:30 this morning. Left my EV plugged in, drove the GF's to work, charging will not start until I hit my SOC target based on time of day, may not get there today, might get 10 or so KWH before 17:00. In this case I manage the load, not the power plant.
 
I really think you are over-complicating it, especially if it doesn't matter dollar-wise when you save the power. I'd definitely not even mess with it at that granular/complex level. I'm not seeing where moving output from time X to time Y is going to accomplish much.
Maybe you're right and I may over-complicating things.

BUT:
I don't care about the situation dollar-wise, especially since I have a grid base plan where it doesn't matter when I consume the grid energy. If I need a specific amount of battery charge to make if over the night, I still think it's more wisely to previously let the batteries charge from x% SOC to 100% SOC instead of let them charge from nearly zero SOC to y% SOC (with the same amount of stored energy) before the night starts. This will help the BMS to reset the SOC counter which will usually drift away >10% after 2-3 days not fully charged. Also the batteries are not always discharged to a very low value (which may also have a positive effect).

Yesterday was a bad solar day, about 70KWH down here with the clouds in the valley. GF decided it was a 5 loads of laundry day, and it was brutally hot. I kicked to the grid at 22:00 and back to the inverters at 07:30, first time since February. It's gonna cost me $2-3 to do that effing laundry (she did 5 the day before as well, deep into the evening on battery, I mean REALLY?). Just suck the batteries dry (to some threshold) and flip-over to the grid.

You start with empty batteries, at sun-up you flip the inverters on once the batteries reach a minimum threshold and run all your loads, collecting excess production in your batteries during the day when the sun is shining. When the sun goes down you use that collected energy the rest of the evening possibly into the next morning, possibly until solar production ramps up. If you are short, you may shut down. Your grid exposure is that window however small or large it may be, between shutdown and solar ramp up.
My goal is to fully automate the solar system in a way that absolutely no manual interaction is required. I know that's possible by just using the settings for BackToGrid and BackToBattery as they are designed - but with the mentioned drawbacks.
When your batteries get to 100% you leave power on the table.
That's right, so the goal is to find a grid usage time frame to let the batteries just hit 100% but let the PV production not clipping.
Thus it behooves you use whatever you have stored if needed, to the point of being dry once solar production starts in the morning to maximize storage fill. To my earlier comment, you do not seem to be getting to 100% with similar capacity to me, which I think is disappointing, none-the less I don't see where fiddling with saving battery capacity for use the next day is going to have any significant impact on your electric bill.
As I already mentioned, it's not the goal to reduce the bill with this sort of fine tuning - it doesn't matter for me when I consume the required grid energy.
I need an average between 105 to 120kWh per 24h with the current temperatures here. But my solar array is only able to produce a max. of 90kWh net usable energy (120kWh with 75% total overall conversion losses) with full sun. So it's clear that I need between 15-25kWh energy from the grid every day (even more on cloudy days) and I have to pay the price for it. I think my daily required energy is higher than yours.

I know, I need to extend my PV size by adding about 10kWp more to my existing 18.4kWp array to be totally independent, even in the hottest summer...
If you were trying to keep a reserve for a power outage/failure, the simplest thing is to raise the "dry" threshold with enough power to handle the number of buffer hours you want. Further you could set your grid-down threshold much lower, say 20% cuts to the grid. If the grid fails, allow the inverters to run it down to 5%, this gives you 15% of your battery in the event the grid fails during non-solar production / low battery hours. Tweaking this window could save you a few pennies. Literally pennies, but for fun maybe.
In the above mentioned two scenarios (let the batteries charge from x% SOC to 100% SOC instead of nearly zero SOC to y% SOC) I have a higher chance to have a reserve in the batteries when I try to keep them between X% and 100% instead of using them on the low end.
At the core I see only two thresholds:
1) Minimum SOC to allow inverter to turn on
2) Minimum SOC at which point the inveters should be off

I'd put at least a 5% gap to keep a cloudy morning from toggling the system off and on excessively.

All that being said . . . I would put an independent sensor/logging device on your mains as a sanity check, if you don't have it already. I rolled my own with timestamps and code, you may want to just put something on the inverter output bus to see if your getting honest numbers.
I measure the whole house energy very accurate since some years and have the data in my smart home system (via Aeotec ZW095 split phase home energy meter, ZWAVE based). So I don't need to rely on the AIO load data which I get in parallel from the SolarAssistant integration and are usually not very accurate.
I'd also spend some effort on your panel output I really think it's low. Do you have shading or anything? It's not yet 12:00 and both banks of batteries are well over 50% from 10 and 8 at 06:30 this morning. Left my EV plugged in, drove the GF's to work, charging will not start until I hit my SOC target based on time of day, may not get there today, might get 10 or so KWH before 17:00. In this case I manage the load, not the power plant.
I have no shading - but the panels are not optimal oriented because of the roof geometry.

The panels have a max. spec power of 18.4kWp (STC) and 13.6kWp (NMOT) but my usual peak is around 14.5kWp (at around 12:30pm) on full sunny days. I think this is not bad for outside (shade) temperatures between 100 and 120 Fahrenheit which we now have here. This is about 78% of the spec max. under STC conditions but 106% of the spec max. under more realistic NMOT conditions!

Usually the PV can add 42% of charge between solar production starts and noon. But the charging rate gets a lot less later in the day because the energy consumption rises a lot. Between 1pm and 6pm I have an average and more or less steady consumption of about 8kW (a central 5 ton heat pump, 2 mini splits (1.5 ton together), a window AC unit (1/2 ton), 1.5kW pool pump, etc.). As a consequence, the SOC it's increasing slower and slower between noon and 3pm and it will drop after 3pm because the batteries are required to be used more an more to cover the load.

Until now, I have not implemented a real smart load management (beside emergency power saving rules like shutting down the pool pump even if it's not running long enough, disconnect the hot water heater, increase the setpoint temperatures of the AC's a bit - these emergency power saving modes only getting active when it's foreseen that the energy will not be enough AND the grid is down).
 
Again, just a short update

1. So far, I've changed the "grid usage as backup" algorithm like this:

If SOC reaches 7% the AC-in's get connected to the grid via the contactors.
If SOC reaches 6% the "back-to-grid" setting is adjusted to 2V higher than the current battery voltage to force the AIOs to suddenly switch from "Solar/Battery" to "Grid" mode (because I'm not using closed loop communication). The setting will be reset to the original value after the mode changed.
Because of the current PV production forecast plugin in my smart home system I know how much PV energy I can produce (minus the losses). Depending on forecast temperatures, I know how much energy I will need to cover. On top of the required energy I calculate the missing battery SOC from last day to reach 100% and add this to the required energy (I want to recharge to 100% SOC as often as possible to reset the SOC counters).

This is the formula to calculate the required grid energy:

requiredGridEnergy = EstimatedHouseConsumption + MissingEnergyToReach100%SOC - PVForecastWithLosses

If the already consumed grid energy will reach the required value, the "back-to-battery" setting will be adjusted to 2V lower than the current battery voltage. This will suddenly let the AIOs switching back to "Solar/Battery" mode.

Because of the very high temperatures since about 2 weeks, the 6% SOC will usually be hit between midnight and 2:30am. The grid usage (with the lowest possible grid battery charging current setting to 2A and as soon as PV production starts, the whole PV energy will be used to recharge the batteries - the grid will only cover the current house load) will stop between 11:00am and 2pm.
Yesterday we hit 122 Fahrenheit around our house and the we've consumed 141kWh in 24h. Our net solar usable energy (with all losses) is about 90kWh. The last 2 weeks and for at least the next 3-4 weeks I need grid support every day. If the outside temperatures will be below 100-104 Fahrenheit, we can run completely without grid (like in the whole May).

(As already mentioned, the rules are implemented in OpenHAB, The required data are coming from SolarAssistant (via MQTT), PV forecast plugin, weather forecast plugin, etc.. To force the mode change of the AIOs, MQTT control messages are sent back from OpenHAB to SolarAssistant).


2. The LED pulsing is (was) back :(

Right after the AIOs had to be connected to the grid for the first time (after 40 consecutive days without mains support), the LED pulsation started again and has continued since then. It seems like something inside the AIOs PWM controlling has been influenced while "seeing" the grid for the first time and from this point in time the pulsing is there (only with low load, like described by many other users).

You may remember that I've done a lot of research to find a solution to this problem without a "real" satisfying way. BUT for my situation I found the load which make the AIOs behave so ugly (it's my vintage slot machine which is always powered on). Once I connected the slot machine with a DIY online-double-conversion UPS, the flickering of all affected LED in the house stopped. This is now my final solution. Not nice, but it works and I don't have this issue anymore.
 
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