Any recommendations for the Noco Genius Genpro10x1?

[LarryJForman]

Does anyone have recommendations Pro or Con for the Noco Genius Genpro 10X1? Since I have not even ordered my four 280 Ah LFP cells I am several months away from having my mondo RV battery. I then need/want to maximize the use of my two old and tired Optima AGM yellow tops. Also, I am pretty sure my Progressive Dynamics 40 amp charger is not set up for LFP. I suspect that before solar, I might have damaged my AGMs by using the boost button too much. With solar I should never have any use for a boost button with LFP and would not want to risk potential damage and over charging LFPs anyway, so I will replace the Progressive Dynamics charger.
I like the idea of the Noco battery save features as I have quite a few old to very old lead acids and several old AGMs so restoring or extending their life would possibly pay for this Genpro.
I note that Dan of Freely Roaming uses a Noco 7+ amp charger for his Sprinter van RV with solar and his DIY 280 Ah 12 V battery, so it sounds like I only need a 10 amp charger for RV campground utility use. Since I have a 2500 watt propane fed generator, the little 10 amp charger should be enough if my AGMs are near the end of their life, if the solar was either not working or for extended cloud cover.
It seems like for only $100 it is hard to pass up for several reasons, unless people here tell me to stay away. I always appreciate the knowledge and sharing here.

 

[MisterSandals]

Noco Genius Genpro 10X1

At 10amps, it will take 28 hours to charge your battery from empty. I have a friend with a Genius 10 in her van and seems to work fine but 10amps is on the low side for her needs. I added a 30a DC-DC Victron Orion and that does the bulk of her charging now since she drives a lot.

Also, I am pretty sure my Progressive Dynamics 40 amp charger is not set up for LFP.

I have the PD4645 (circa 2008) that was pre LFP aware. Works just fine for conservative charging.
I would upgrade to the LFP aware ones but those charge to something like 14.6v and maintain a very high SoC... much much higher than I like (others too from what I've seen). Completely non-configurable too.

 

[LarryJForman]

Yes, mine is a PD9200 series possibly 40 amps or more. Designed for lead acid and AGM era. With boost, I think those would be dangerously high SoC as you mention. Needs to come out asap and certainly before LFP installation. With solar I no longer have any use for boost with my AGMs.

 

[MisterSandals]

Needs to come out asap and certainly before LFP installation.

I thought i was making the argument to keep the pre-LFP PD charger.

I opted to keep my PD4645 because the LFP model charges REALLY high and keeps the Soc really high. If you are a heavy battery user everyday, then this would, in my opinion be a reason to upgrade to the new LFP version.
I've had a 412ah LiFePO4 battery in my RV with the PD4645 for nearly a year without issues (charges to 90% plugged in or charging from alternator). I have 330w of solar on the roof which pretty much removes my need to ever plug in (once in last year?).

 

[LarryJForman]

OK, I completely missed your point! Let me explain my situation and I will welcome comments. It seems I have four different charging and usage situations:
1. Driving with alternator charging and plenty of 12 volt amps available. Need DC-DC charger to save alternator and prevent over charging when LFP is installed. AC powered charger not needed.
2. RV sitting in driveway for months during cooler weather. No need for a charger as the solar will top things off and minimal battery usage/drain.
3. RV at RV park with 30 amp service. With shore power taking all the load, there is no need for battery charging unless prolonged overcast situation.
4. Boondocking and medium to high battery load. AC charger not available unless generator is started to possibly recharge dead battery to start engine. While running the generator any AC loads would be covered with generator powering 2000 W pure sinewave inverter OR powering roof A/C. Note: I am assuming with 400 to possibly 800 W of solar there would not be enough solar to run roof A/C.

So it seems that I have nearly zero need for any AC powered charger running over 10 amps. Did I miss anything?

 

[MisterSandals]

So it seems that I have nearly zero need for any AC powered charger running over 10 amps. Did I miss anything?

Not if your generator charges your batteries too. That would be a pretty reliable fallback.

Driving with alternator charging and plenty of 12 volt amps available. Need DC-DC charger to save alternator and prevent over charging when LFP is installed

Does you existing PD unit charge from alternator? If so, adding a DC-DC charger would double up charging from alternator.

AC charger not available unless generator is started to possibly recharge dead battery to start engine.

Do you have separate engine starter and house batteries? I was assuming you did.

 

[LarryJForman]

Well, at this time, we have about zero boondocking experience, so I really don't know how much battery recharge from the generator powered charger we might ever need. Also, the 200 W of solar is new within the past two months and by early June we should receive another 200 W of solar panels. I am assuming that most of the time the solar will take care of topping off the battery. We currently only have two old Optima AGMs that are only 55 Ah each on a good day. Which is why I am so eager to build the 280 Ah 12 volt LFP.

The PD is AC powered only by shore power or the generator and that can assist if we need help to start the engine. When the generator is running it covers the high powered AC appliances, except not while the roof A/C is running. While we can use the microwave and the roof A/C together powered by the generator, we normally don't run the generator except to power the roof A/V when driving in hot weather. We also run the generator to power the roof A/C when camping in very hot places to help cool us and the 60 lb Poodle. We can only run the generator powering the roof A/C for about 24 hours until we run out of propane.

I just received my Victron SmartShunt and will check the capacity of those batteries. I will need to run a new ground return for the front mounted battery so it connects to the SmartShunt. But for now I can check the rear one closest to the engine starter. I have been using both my Optimas as starting and house batteries without any problems so far.

With our vintage 22 ft. Ultravan RV we are pretty limited in both battery space and weight. That is why I am eager to dump the 110 AH and 87 lbs of AGM batteries and replace them both with one 280 Ah and about 60+ lbs including wood box, bms, and battery heating and cooling accessories. That mondo battery can be dual use for house and engine starting easily.

 

[MisterSandals]

If you use a LiFePO4 battery for engine starting, the BMS will need to be sized for the engine cranking amps (probably between 500a-1000a).

 

[LarryJForman]

While the engine is an Olds Toronado 455 ci engine and the rule of thumb is 1 CCA for each ci engine size, my engine "only" draws about 400 amps as measured by a 1000 A clamp meter. I will install the Victron SmartShunt rated at 500A, to get a better assessment of the CCA. As a newbie, I did not realize the BMS needed to be sized for engine cranking amps, so that is very important info for me. Thank you very much.

Throughout this entire vintage 22 ft RV adventure I have been constantly working to match equipment size and weight to make sure I don't overkill for what is needed. Most of the time I have matched the needs pretty well. That is why I like the 280 Ah DIY battery as I will save over 20 lbs and more then double battery Ah capacity.

 

[MisterSandals]

I did not realize the BMS needed to be sized for engine cranking amps, so that is very important info for me.

The amps of the BMS are sized for the amperage of the current running thru it. If the amp limit is exceeded, the BMS should cut out.

Its not necessary to run everything thru the BMS. In situations that you bypass the BMS, you become the BMS and are responsible for not violating the batteries. This of course would invalidate the coulomb counting that your shunt would be doing.

A 500a BMS is not very common and would be pretty spendy.

 

[LarryJForman]

All that makes sense. I would think, without knowing much about BMS's right now, that if the BMS limit is exceeded the BMS would cut out and return once the overcurrent limit was reduced (typically less than 10 seconds and normally 2-6 seconds for me). I will start researching this important topic. I am pretty sure that Dan of Freely Roaming just uses his 280 LFP for engine starting, but I will check. I really don't need or want a huge expense or penalty to retain the weight benefits of the LFP. I will start researching Daly BMS's and others. Thanks!

 

[MisterSandals]

Some reading:

Search results for query: lfp for engine starting

diysolarforum.com

 

[LarryJForman]

OK, will do. Thanks for the reference. This is pretty critical for me to get this right and hopefully not too expensively or with a weight penalty. I for sure do NOT want to put any Lion (non-LFP) in that RV. We all saw what happened to the Lion powered Tesla that crashed into a tree 30,000 gallons of H2o later.

 

[LarryJForman]

The amps of the BMS are sized for the amperage of the current running thru it. If the amp limit is exceeded, the BMS should cut out.

Its not necessary to run everything thru the BMS. In situations that you bypass the BMS, you become the BMS and are responsible for not violating the batteries. This of course would invalidate the coulomb counting that your shunt would be doing.

A 500a BMS is not very common and would be pretty spendy.

I just looked at the Daly 300A BMS specs. They say that they can handle over current and up to 1000 Amps until they cut out. So it would appear that for my 400 amps for maybe 6 seconds it would handle that just fine. The Daly 300A BMS is just over $300 delivered. I could do a specialized LFP and super cap starting battery also for about $300 and I could separate the engine running and starting circuits from the house 280A LFP. But if I need a large BMS for the house battery, maybe it makes best economical sense to just rely on one 280A LFP battery for everything and avoid the dedicated starting battery. I suppose I could buy a super cap and use that to help with the starting surges for less money.

I just wish someone here would also run the 280 AH LFP for engine starting so I had more confidence it would work reliably. I will install my Victron smart Shunt 500A and start making some tests and maybe look into super caps and see if I can lower the CCA surges to closer to 300A.

 

[Substrate]

My 2c about the new Noco black series and your application:

For off the shelf, the black Noco's in Lithium (LFP) mode do an ok job (I own two of them) - just charge, no float for LFP etc. Warning: the "repair" mode which can use up to 16v pulses is right next to the LFP setting, so if you are in a hurry, or don't have your glasses on like I do, you may biff your LFP bank!

But like others, I think that 10a is just too small for your bank. My thoughts go along the lines of an IOTA charger with the LFP IQ module that are higher in current. I don't own one, so take that into account.

Without turning this into an Optima thread, which I've used for decades, is that your batteries may not actually be tired, just under-charged or babied to death. Low CV's like 14.4, not enough float-time at 13.6v (despite the user-friendly instructions on their site) have a tendency to make them sluggish. And then when you hammer them like you are supposed to, they complain and crawl into a corner. Hence the bad rep you see sometimes.

If you are truly interested in seeing if the Optimas are worth your time at all any more, sure you could get one of the Optima chargers like their little 4A one and see how things go.

Problem is, I find them to be too agressive with NEW Optimas, and too agressive with "conventional" non pure-lead agm's that are merely deeply discharged, but otherwise not in bad shape.

My recommendation is this for the Optima's:

Tecmate-Optimate 6 TM-181 Ampmatic.

The major reason is that without sounding like a total shill, if it tries to charge and fails, you can TRUST it, and not waste any more of your valuable time. #1 reason!

Basically it has more internal consumer-level diagnostics than anything else I've found out there. Where other chargers may chug along and leave you with a weak batt, the Tecmate will either do two things - fail MUCH earlier and tell you to stop wasting your time, or do a LONG TERM recovery, which *sometimes* an older Optima may recover from.

Despite this, it has no user-level adjustments to make. You can't go wrong, and more importantly is a great "hand-off" to others that might damage batteries set to the wrong setting. Normally I don't go for that as a geek, but in this case it works.

Tip: This charger only charges up to 14.4v. Fine for conventional agm's. But pure-leads really like to see 14.7v, so unless you opted for the much more expensive "Select" model of Tecmate, simply use your solar charge controller for normal use at 14.7v CV/Absorb.

I've gone on too long, so sorry about that. It's just that I've been hammering Optimas since the 80's and seen it all.