diy solar

diy solar

At what price does LFP storage make it possible to go off-grid?

Of course, but it depends on how much cooling you need. This is Finland - if it gets 30C for a day or two a year it's a lot.
hahaha...omg 86ºF hahaha! I'd hand you a newspaper and tell you to fan yourself!
The desert I was raised in tops 120ºF a day probably at least 30 days a year and during the monsoon season too. Christmas is t-shirt weather. So when I moved to the Ozarks summer weather was nothing. When it hits 86º here we have all the windows and doors wide open and loving life with nothing but circulating fans. We turn the a/c on at about 90º. Cold is a completely different issue for this old desert rat though.
 
hahaha...omg 86ºF hahaha! I'd hand you a newspaper and tell you to fan yourself!
The desert I was raised in tops 120ºF a day probably at least 30 days a year and during the monsoon season too. Christmas is t-shirt weather. So when I moved to the Ozarks summer weather was nothing. When it hits 86º here we have all the windows and doors wide open and loving life with nothing but circulating fans. We turn the a/c on at about 90º. Cold is a completely different issue for this old desert rat though.

Yes, location matters with all things like solar, heating, cooling, off-grid. I'm in a heating dominated climate, with temperatures dropping to -35C and sustained -20C periods. That's why it's not only the cost of LFP storage that makes off-grid possible or not.
 
247 kWh is simply not $148,000 at $300/kW but half that.
OHHHH! I get it now! ?‍♂️

The reason it's double is the lifespan of the batteries is a decade, but the evaluation is over 20 years... so you need to buy batteries twice during that time. Although... the second set of batteries will be cheaper and the investment shouldn't magnify... I should fix that!
 

Ver 1.4


Split the periods out for the battery so you could enter a lower second decade cost for the replacement batteries. Also realized the second set might be solid-state, so allowed the volume to be changed. The $/m3 uses the larger space (in case you switch to LTO) as that needs to be pain upfront. There might be some recycle fees or payback at their end-of-life, but those aren't included.

1643746015385.png

If you're using LTO and expect 20 years you could just zero out the right columns:
1643746392411.png
If your battery will last longer than 20 years (e.g., possibly LTO), then see the comment in cell B26 to prorate the costs.
 
247 kWh is simply not $148,000 at $300/kW but half that.
Yeah that's a rough 20 year cost based on needing to update/replace storage along the way. Stuff wears out. Stuff goes wrong. Who knows what the future costs will be?

It's all back of the Excel envelope stuff.

When you are the grid, you are responsible for building, running and maintaining it. For life. Or as long as you expect to be there.

Meanwhile my local grid company employs 3,500 people and has local contractors as well for much of their maintenance and building work. They visit my property about annually for a check of the poles and wires they are responsible for, and of course constantly monitor their network. They know the instant we are disconnected, and the issue and ETA for restoration are updated online. They have government regulated standards for service levels and system restoration. In the meantime for just a few $grand I have backup power for those occasions to tide us over.

I don't need to be around, or arrange for and wait for an electrician to come out to fix my own power station fault (called my electrician yesterday - it will be 3-4 weeks before he can come to fix some suff and install my smart hot water solar PV diverter).

As I mentioned earlier, a project requiring ~0.25MWh of storage would require a dedicated power station building the scale of which is like a decent sized single car garage, with some form of climate control (to mostly deal with the Summer heat), be secure from ingress by insects and other creatures, be appropriately accessible for humans, as well as be suitably fire rated/protected - both from inside should something go horribly wrong in there, but also from the outside given we are subject to bushfire threats at times. Perhaps housed in a suitably modified shipping container.

I'd also need to allow for ground mounts for PV arrays in the field and associated cable trenching. It would not be cheap and these extra costs are not including in the sheet's cost assumptions. Now I have an extra building which will also require maintenance and upkeep.

Almost none of this could be built as a DIY project. Code here requires such a facility be installed by qualified licensed specialists, as would any ongoing changes, modifications, updates etc. I'd need to have a service contractor who could be on call should something go wrong. That'd probably require an annual retainer.

Other than a replacement cost assumption, there is no allowance for the fact this also requires high quality monitoring and a fair bit of personal time devoted to making sure everything is running as it should.

But here comes the fun part.

That daily consumption data (showing max 2-day consecutive consumption of 182kWh) was just for calendar year 2021. If I go back to late 2018 (when my very detailed energy data collection starts) our max consecutive 2-day consumption is 257kWh.

Then you also have to factor in:
- how long you expect to be at this location, and
- the impact on property value should one wish to sell and move on, and
- increase in insurance premiums to cover for the mini power station (due to the fires and floods over past 2 years our premium went up 22% this year)

It's my opinion that taking our property off-grid would reduce the property's sale value, quite considerably. Any prospective new owners would have to establish the risks of inheriting an off-grid personal power station. A majority would rule the property out from consideration, especially considering all neighbouring properties are on the grid.

If you are buying a block in the wilderness to create a new home, then it's a different scenario.
 
Yeah that's a rough 20 year cost based on needing to update/replace storage along the way. Stuff wears out. Stuff goes wrong. Who knows what the future costs will be?

It's all back of the Excel envelope stuff.

When you are the grid, you are responsible for building, running and maintaining it. For life. Or as long as you expect to be there.

Meanwhile my local grid company employs 3,500 people and has local contractors as well for much of their maintenance and building work. They visit my property about annually for a check of the poles and wires they are responsible for, and of course constantly monitor their network. They know the instant we are disconnected, and the issue and ETA for restoration are updated online. They have government regulated standards for service levels and system restoration. In the meantime for just a few $grand I have backup power for those occasions to tide us over.

I don't need to be around, or arrange for and wait for an electrician to come out to fix my own power station fault (called my electrician yesterday - it will be 3-4 weeks before he can come to fix some suff and install my smart hot water solar PV diverter).

As I mentioned earlier, a project requiring ~0.25MWh of storage would require a dedicated power station building the scale of which is like a decent sized single car garage, with some form of climate control (to mostly deal with the Summer heat), be secure from ingress by insects and other creatures, be appropriately accessible for humans, as well as be suitably fire rated/protected - both from inside should something go horribly wrong in there, but also from the outside given we are subject to bushfire threats at times. Perhaps housed in a suitably modified shipping container.

I'd also need to allow for ground mounts for PV arrays in the field and associated cable trenching. It would not be cheap and these extra costs are not including in the sheet's cost assumptions. Now I have an extra building which will also require maintenance and upkeep.

Almost none of this could be built as a DIY project. Code here requires such a facility be installed by qualified licensed specialists, as would any ongoing changes, modifications, updates etc. I'd need to have a service contractor who could be on call should something go wrong. That'd probably require an annual retainer.

Other than a replacement cost assumption, there is no allowance for the fact this also requires high quality monitoring and a fair bit of personal time devoted to making sure everything is running as it should.

But here comes the fun part.

That daily consumption data (showing max 2-day consecutive consumption of 182kWh) was just for calendar year 2021. If I go back to late 2018 (when my very detailed energy data collection starts) our max consecutive 2-day consumption is 257kWh.

Then you also have to factor in:
- how long you expect to be at this location, and
- the impact on property value should one wish to sell and move on, and
- increase in insurance premiums to cover for the mini power station (due to the fires and floods over past 2 years our premium went up 22% this year)

It's my opinion that taking our property off-grid would reduce the property's sale value, quite considerably. Any prospective new owners would have to establish the risks of inheriting an off-grid personal power station. A majority would rule the property out from consideration, especially considering all neighbouring properties are on the grid.

If you are buying a block in the wilderness to create a new home, then it's a different scenario.
It wouldn't necessarily be a big deal for the new owners to get reconnected. The infrastructure obviously exists if the property was grid-connected. That battery storage and ging off-grid is a very hard proposition from a cost-effectiveness point of view is really not a question in 2022.
 

Ver 1.5


Forgot to split the investment into two "period" investments in 1.4.
 
Did I get that right, 64% of your usage is non-solar peak hours?
I thought more about this and yes, the usage for my house is around the 60% area during non-solar peak hours from digesting the data. It reinforces the idea that a battery system is a good investment to get the best performance from a solar system when grid tie isn't preferred or an option.

At first I was concerned about that usage in non-solar peak hours but then realized that is why one purchases storage, whether spending the money for grid tie net metering or battery storage systems. In my case, I had no desire for net metering, the rules can change at the whim of the power company or utilities board and I prefer control of the future.

If I have some excess capacity during peak solar as loads will not be high during the day, I can have a dump load such as thermal mass storage or add a heat pump and take advantage of the higher efficiency during daylight hours. At night here it has been below 0F for several weeks now, even if daytime temps have been in the 20F range.
 
If you haven't already seen it, here's a thread discussing the current (2/2022) "installed" costs of DIY cells.
 

Ver 1.6

Added a new tab to help calculate the "installed" costs of a DIY Cell build based on @upnorthandpersonal's thread, it's at the bottom:

1644416204718.png
It assumes 16 cells in series to 48V. Let me know when you spot errors... ; -)
 
Whattt?! i don't understand anything. I need help, for example this?
Thanksss
You should start a new thread specific to your issues that trouble you. This thread covers the cost efficacy of solar for a higher tier of installation with sufficient batteries to disconnect the grid.
 
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