battery instead of generator

[SkipperJer]

We have power interruptions all thru the year from summer storms to ice storms bringing down the power lines. I thought about a propane generator but then I ran across this forum. Is there an piece of equipment that would provide the following:
1. Provide power for the 110/220 output from the grid but when the grid is down provide power from a battery bank.
2. charge a battery bank from the grid and take a solar panel input for charging
We need the 220 to run the well pump.
I guess the equipment would include a transfer switch, inverter,battery charger.

 

[A.Justice]

The term you're looking for is "All in one unit". Most of those include a solar charge controller (or two), inverter (or two for 240v split phase, which if you're in the US, is more than likely what your well pump is going to be run on), battery charger, and accompanying circuitry.

I don't know of any that include a battery, because the companies making the units can't know how much backup will be necessary.

 

[cs1234]

We have power interruptions all thru the year from summer storms to ice storms bringing down the power lines. I thought about a propane generator but then I ran across this forum. Is there an piece of equipment that would provide the following:
1. Provide power for the 110/220 output from the grid but when the grid is down provide power from a battery bank.
2. charge a battery bank from the grid and take a solar panel input for charging
We need the 220 to run the well pump.
I guess the equipment would include a transfer switch, inverter,battery charger.

Even if you decide to build/purchase a large solar system, or buy the largest bluetti or ecoflow standalone solar generator you will still probably want to have a propane/gas generator available anyway. They don't cost much and can work to recharge whatever solar system you decide to get when the sun and stars don't align.

Welcome to the forum though, all the toys you will learn about are amazing!

 

[cs1234]

If you haven't already, watch Will's video on the EG4 48v system.

Will's EG4 video

Combined with a manual transfer switch, you could power whatever circuits you want with it.

Manual transfer switches

Depending on what your combined loads are, you could run everything on your house through something like that and it can recharge the batteries from your utility company or a generator.

 

[J.P.]

If you haven't already, watch Will's video on the EG4 48v system.

Will's EG4 video

Combined with a manual transfer switch, you could power whatever circuits you want with it.

Manual transfer switches

Depending on what your combined loads are, you could run everything on your house through something like that and it can recharge the batteries from your utility company or a generator.

Why a "Manual" Transfer switch?

Why not set it up on a regular automatic standby switch like the generators use?

My Generac 200A automatic transfer switch senses loss of grid power, triggers the generator to start and monitors it to see when it is providing proper voltage and then transfers the entire house load automatically. Then it continues to monitor the grid and when grid power returns, it switches back to the grid so quickly that you just barely notice a blip in the lights.

If you could do away with the initial delay and have it switch as soon as the grid goes down, it would be like one big Uninterruptable Power Supply.

Also, some of the newer ATS's have load shedding capabilities to help managing the heavier loads (HVAC, WATER HEATER, WELL PUMP,ETC.) with the lower capacity of the generator or in this case, inverter power.

 

[SkipperJer]

I found the LV6048 and from the diagram it appears it will do everything I want. The down side is it appears not to be UL approved. I think if it was
installed and the house burnt down my insurance company would be happy. The problem with the propane generator is generator and tank placement The only suitable place would be on the opposite side of the house from where the main breaker panel location. The master bedroom is above the main panel and code dictates no carbon monoxide generators near bedroom windows. I don't know how these inverters handle a load unbalance between the two 120 outputs.

 

[cs1234]

I found the LV6048 and from the diagram it appears it will do everything I want. The down side is it appears not to be UL approved. I think if it was
installed and the house burnt down my insurance company would be happy. The problem with the propane generator is generator and tank placement The only suitable place would be on the opposite side of the house from where the main breaker panel location. The master bedroom is above the main panel and code dictates no carbon monoxide generators near bedroom windows. I don't know how these inverters handle a load unbalance between the two 120 outputs.

I think Signature Solar was saying that the big EG4 inverter is UL approved, but like everything involving UL, it might be skirting the truth.

If you had a battery powered inverter system that you were familiar with that is already hooked up to whatever in your house via your main panel, subpanel, ATS/MTS then you could just charge the batteries directly using an appropriate set of DC chargers connected directly to the batteries and powered by the regular power cords on the generator.

Are we talking a whole house generator with a permanent tank? I meant a small generator, say 3-5000 watts just to charge batteries if need be, not run the whole house.

 

[cs1234]

Why a "Manual" Transfer switch?

Why indeed. An automatic transfer switch could work also. I have nothing against them.

 

[SkipperJer]

"Are we talking a whole house generator with a permanent tank? I meant a small generator, say 3-5000 watts just to charge batteries if need be, not run the whole house."

If we went generator then yes a whole house system with a big tank. I think the longest power has been out in this area has been 3 days, That was after a hurricane. We live in Maryland by the Chesapeake Bay so every so often a hurricane will come by. We can live without AC and we have a gas fireplace for winter heat. We need power for the water well, refrigerators and small appliance. 250 watts for one fridge, we have two so thats 500 watts, The pump is 1 horse, 700 watts and a couple of thousand watts for other stuff. Our stove is gas so we can cook.

 

[cs1234]

"Are we talking a whole house generator with a permanent tank? I meant a small generator, say 3-5000 watts just to charge batteries if need be, not run the whole house."

If we went generator then yes a whole house system with a big tank. I think the longest power has been out in this area has been 3 days, That was after a hurricane. We live in Maryland by the Chesapeake Bay so every so often a hurricane will come by. We can live without AC and we have a gas fireplace for winter heat. We need power for the water well, refrigerators and small appliance. 250 watts for one fridge, we have two so thats 500 watts, The pump is 1 horse, 700 watts and a couple of thousand watts for other stuff. Our stove is gas so we can cook.

I don't know your finances, obviously, but if you end up going with any sort of solar / battery system, you are still going to want a small generator.

Get a small, cheap, portable propane generator, maybe two if you want redundancy / parallel ability to boost output and keep whatever the legal limit (if you care) of portable propane tanks (they store forever, in practical terms) at your place. Then you use the generators to supply AC charging via whatever charging method you prefer to your solar system if/when you need to boost your batteries.

Small propane generator that can stack

If you size the AC/DC chargers small enough, you can even use a small, inexpensive inverter on your cars to run AC/DC chargers to charge your main solar system back up using gasoline/diesel that your cars use anyway. I don't suggest ever buying generators to run them on gasoline or diesel, when you have a car available anyway that is always maintained and full of fuel normally. A car can pretty easily run a 300-400 watt AC/DC charger, and if you have two cars, which most of us do, that is a good amount of recharging over time.

Remember, up to the limit of your batteries charging rate, you can dump juice into them from as many different sources simultaneously as you want, it can add up fast and recharge you up as long as you aren't trying to bitcoin mine or something while having a power outage.

 

[ePowerBank]

@SkipperJer Have you settled on a backup plan yet? I'm in process of doing something similar, wanting backup power for my worst case: basement sump pump losing power when basement if fully finished.

Basically I went with budget friendlier inverter ($1100) unit which will act as a UPS for sump (automatically) while also being able to act as backup power for the house (manually). With this plan I have 2 inverter generators that are parallel capable, which I setup to run on natural gas (actually 3 fuel capable).

The keys to this plan was that both Inverter and generators are 240v (split phase) so I'm able to feed both sides or my "whole" panel. At their natural gas ratings I figure I have 3kw or 6kw of power from generator(s), which is enough to get by. I'm OK with the manual part of the system since if I'm not home I don't have need. And, since this is an exception, I'm fine with it. Like you I think, I have gas & electric utilities on opposite corners of home, making it very difficult to have whole house automatic backup NG generator. I did need to upgrade my NG meter and installed NG manifold in my garage with some quick connects.

Oh, one other element to my "Be Prepared" moto is that I have $100 UPS battery packs plugging my IT stuff, acting as a temp buffer not to mention protects some higher end stuff - didn't drop the Zoom call when I was the host recently for a 3 hour outage.

To sum it up, I have an Active Sump backup system and Passive Whole House backup system, with temp IT protection. Only thing I can't do is run my AC and 240v ovens, but I can run HVAC/Heater, Microwave etc with all the lights, as well as ceiling fans - just about everything on my over 50 breakers between 2 panels.

My understanding is Inverter generators are cleaner too - don't want to fry the new microwave! And I have option to use one generator resulting less fuel. During day I can run one or two, and during night I can get by with the battery(s). And, if I move I can take everything with me.

BTW, the Sungold inverter model I'm using is UL listed - one of my concerns like you. It's hard to justify spending a lot for something I may only use once or twice every 5 years.. While the UPS $100 units may only last 5 years if I'm lucky, I understand the LifePo4 battery has a design life up to 15 or 20 years.