Best inverter for setup in Europe

[Pfsolar]

Hi,

Let me do a quick introduction. I'm a currently building a house in the Netherlands in Europe, together with my dad. We currently have net metering in the Netherlands, but it is planned to be reduce each year, starting in 2023. My dad asked me a couple of times if I'm going to install a battery pack in my new house together with the solar panels. Such a ''hybrid'' system is not very common in my country and aren't a lot of supplier for battery banks and bimodal inverters. To see if it was somewhat logical I did some calculations on the system of my parents. I still live with my parents and they have a 6 kW solar array with Enphase micro-inverters. After doing the math I calculated a battery bank of 10.5 kWh would reduce their electical bill with 1100 euro each year. So after that I was conviced that I'm going to install a battery bank together with the solar system.
The last month I've been reading into the different relevant subjects of solar and diy batteries. I've a qoute of a solar installer who offered me an 11 kW solar system and a SolarEdge SE7K as an inverter. (He doesn't know I'm planning to install a battery bank.). This inverter is not suitable for a hybrid system to my knowdledge.

As I was doing research I've saw the terms AC- and DC-coupling, and my preference goes to DC-coupling. This due it simplicity and efficiency, please correct me if I'm wrong.

So my plan is that the solar installer installs the (11kW of) panels on my roof, and that I will install the inverter(this could also be done by the solar company if they have a suitable inverter) and the DIY battery. I know that their are more components, like wires, fuses and breakers.

This brings me to my question:
What is the best inverter for my scenario; What will be the easiest to install and best bang for the buck.
Personally I really like the Sol-ark inverter, due to their simplicity and all-in-one, but their not easy to get your hands on (cheapily) in Europe.

I know that their are a couple of options such as individual MPPT or battery inverters, but I've not a lot of space left in my technical room.

I also know that I probably forgot to tell a lot of relevant information for you guys to answers my questions. So don't hesitate ask my more information

Thanks in advance!

 

[Samsonite801]

I noted a lot of people who are outside of the US, like the Deye inverters (Deye makes Sol-Ark)...

Also, Victron brand (while so popular for RVs), they have the Quattro gear that is 48v, and I see a strong ecosystem in Europe for them, and is good quality equipment, as I own some Victron gear myself and love it.

Voltronic is another popular brand in Europe (basically the same thing as MPP Solar, some of the PIP models are spec'd for single-phase 230v operation, not requiring split-phase)...

You might also need to check your local laws and codes to confirm if you need equipment which requires any kind of industry certification in order to be grid connected or grid tied (similar like we have in US with 'UL Listed', and such), and make sure the equipment you're eyeballing complies with all the required standards (and if the local codes require professional installation)...

 

[chess-equality]

Victron is there with you in The Netherlands. Maybe they're even your neighbors

SMA is also there in the EU.

 

[Pfsolar]

I noted a lot of people who are outside of the US, like the Deye inverters (Deye makes Sol-Ark)...

Also, Victron brand (while so popular for RVs), they have the Quattro gear that is 48v, and I see a strong ecosystem in Europe for them, and is good quality equipment, as I own some Victron gear myself and love it.

Voltronic is another popular brand in Europe (basically the same thing as MPP Solar, some of the PIP models are spec'd for single-phase 230v operation, not requiring split-phase)...

You might also need to check your local laws and codes to confirm if you need equipment which requires any kind of industry certification in order to be grid connected or grid tied (similar like we have in US with 'UL Listed', and such), and make sure the equipment you're eyeballing complies with all the required standards (and if the local codes require professional installation)...

Thank you for replying.

Yeah the Deye inverters look like simple and robust inverters. It's a shame that they aren't easily available in Europe.

The Voltronic inverters also looks really nice. I also think that is a viable option for my situation, will look into these.

I know Victron indeed as a good and robust brand. Only so far it seems that, when you using their products. You use, for example, the Smart Solar MPPT RS 450/100 as solar charger for the battery, and then connect a battery inverter to convert the battery output to 230AC.
I must admit I'm no expert on this subject, but with logical thinking that seems inefficient. It means that if you want to use your solar power directly, it must go through the battery before you can use it. Doesn't this unnecassery decrease the battery bank lifespan?

The problem for me is that all these hybrid inverters are relatively small. My solar array will produce a peak power of around 10 kW and has 900 Vdc outage. Must of the hybrid inverters which can handle make use of a high voltage battery. I know that you can hook them up parallel, but I honestly wouldn't know how to do that.

As you mentioned there must be some kind of laws or regulations with some rules on this subject, but I can't really find a good source for the European ones.

 

[Samsonite801]

Thank you for replying.

Sure no prob..

Yeah the Deye inverters look like simple and robust inverters. It's a shame that they aren't easily available in Europe.

The Voltronic inverters also looks really nice. I also think that is a viable option for my situation, will look into these.

It isn't a bad idea to search for inverters and batteries at same time, because some people like to build the BMS communication integration into the system (where SoC information from BMS on battery can supply to inverter, so it can display SoC %, set charging rules based on SoC, etc )...

I know for example, on the Voltronic/MPP Solar inverters, they can work with BMS communication with Pylontech batteries... So if that is important to you, you may want to learn more about that whole world of getting the batteries to talk to the inverters...

I know Victron indeed as a good and robust brand. Only so far it seems that, when you using their products. You use, for example, the Smart Solar MPPT RS 450/100 as solar charger for the battery, and then connect a battery inverter to convert the battery output to 230AC.
I must admit I'm no expert on this subject, but with logical thinking that seems inefficient. It means that if you want to use your solar power directly, it must go through the battery before you can use it. Doesn't this unnecassery decrease the battery bank lifespan?

It's not really so much like that. The battery is just the buffer sitting in the middle, it always starts as higher voltage DC in the solar, gets bucked down to battery voltage, then inverted back up to the AC power. An all-in-one inverter is really no different, it just has the charge controller, the inverter, and the battery connection tied into one box.

The Victron just has them as separate components. The power just skims off the top of battery voltage and when charged at 100% say, no amperage goes into battery, the solar charger essentially just feeds the current across the battery bank / bus bars and skims directly to the inverter input, same as an all-in-one is doing.

The all-in-one is just packing all the components into a single box.

There are some key differences between the various all-in-ones, like on Voltronic/MPP Solar, if you want to charge the batteries off of grid power, it has to do it while the inverter is in standby (bypass) mode, since the mosfets used to charge batteries (from grid input) are the same mosfets used for inverting. But on a Sol-Ark/Deye, they can charge batteries from grid while inverting. Both types can charge from solar while inverting (since they are separate electronics within the unit).

The problem for me is that all these hybrid inverters are relatively small. My solar array will produce a peak power of around 10 kW and has 900 Vdc outage. Must of the hybrid inverters which can handle make use of a high voltage battery. I know that you can hook them up parallel, but I honestly wouldn't know how to do that.

For me, one of the elements I consider a prerequisite in shopping for an all-in-one inverter, or even a standalone inverter, is whether they are parallel stackable inverters, meaning you can stack a bunch of the same model inverters together to get more inverter output amperage, more PV inputs, etc.

Stackable inverters connect via comm cables to sync their sine waves, and wire in parallel, and can usually stack anywhere from 6-10 inverters into various topologies, like for single-phase, split-phase, 3-phase, etc.

I always recommend to download the manual for a prospective inverter you're considering, and read through it, look at the specs, the stacking topologies, etc... Stackable inverter means you can continue to scale out to large system, and also adds better redundancy in case of component failure.

And you just parallel in as many battery packs onto the DC input power bus to provide the KWh of storage you require, it's not hard to do, just make sure every cable is protected with proper rated fuse or breaker connections, and emergency disconnects if required by code.

As you mentioned there must be some kind of laws or regulations with some rules on this subject, but I can't really find a good source for the European ones.

Yeah usually when on-grid, you'd go check with your local power company to find out what your local rules are on DIY, and specific code requirements, inspection procedures (or if necessary, they should be able to refer you to any proper regulatory entity).

In many cases, off-grid doesn't have any special rules since you're not connecting to their grid. But they still might have building wiring codes for safety, etc (can check with your city or county building dept)..

 

[gonmag8]

Why do you say that deye aren't easily available?
In you case I would get 2 x 5kw deye
A few websites in spain Have them, seen them in france also, I am sure you can find them up there too

Deye SUN-5K SG03LP1 Hybrid Inverter

This hybrid inverter, is suitable for residential and light commercial use, maximizing self-consumption rate of solar energy and increasing your energy impendence. During the day, the PV system generates electricity which will be provided to the loads initially. Then, the excess energy will...

suministrosdelsol.com

Onduleur Hybride Deye : l'onduleur le plus polyvalent du marché

Faites des économies d’énergie et simplifiez-vous la vie avec un l'onduleur hybride Deye tout en un ! Découvrez ses caractéristiques.

www.sunxcell.com

 

[freedomlives]

@Pfsolar here in Slovakia, I discovered that even if I don't grid-tie my system, I have to inform the local electric distribution company about my PV panels (and they aren't grid tied). Obviously, if it will be feeding back into the grid (or even capable of it, like hybrid inverters), there's more paperwork involved. I would call or email your electrical distribution company as a starter for learning what the regulations are.

@Samsonite801 thanks for that overview, it answers some questions I was about to ask and helps me understand the Victron ecosystem a bit better.

 

[Pfsolar]

It isn't a bad idea to search for inverters and batteries at same time, because some people like to build the BMS communication integration into the system (where SoC information from BMS on battery can supply to inverter, so it can display SoC %, set charging rules based on SoC, etc )...

I know for example, on the Voltronic/MPP Solar inverters, they can work with BMS communication with Pylontech batteries... So if that is important to you, you may want to learn more about that whole world of getting the batteries to talk to the inverters...

That is indeed a really good point. I indeed would prefer that the BMS and the inverter/solar charger have a communication link. I'm still planning to build the battery myself, so I've to investigate which BMS' are able to communicate with the inverter I will chose. Thanks for the heads up.

It's not really so much like that. The battery is just the buffer sitting in the middle, it always starts as higher voltage DC in the solar, gets bucked down to battery voltage, then inverted back up to the AC power. An all-in-one inverter is really no different, it just has the charge controller, the inverter, and the battery connection tied into one box.

The Victron just has them as separate components. The power just skims off the top of battery voltage and when charged at 100% say, no amperage goes into battery, the solar charger essentially just feeds the current across the battery bank / bus bars and skims directly to the inverter input, same as an all-in-one is doing.

Ahh I did not know that. I'm a mechanical engineer who works sometimes on diesel generator, so I've some understanding of Electrical basic princeples. Indeed the way you type it, it make sense. That puts Victron back in the scope, because I really like that brand as we use it very commonly in my workfield.

There are some key differences between the various all-in-ones, like on Voltronic/MPP Solar, if you want to charge the batteries off of grid power, it has to do it while the inverter is in standby (bypass) mode, since the mosfets used to charge batteries (from grid input) are the same mosfets used for inverting. But on a Sol-Ark/Deye, they can charge batteries from grid while inverting. Both types can charge from solar while inverting (since they are separate electronics within the unit).

Yeah I've read about that somewhere in this forum. That is why I like the Sol-ark so much, because it is a little more flexible.

For me, one of the elements I consider a prerequisite in shopping for an all-in-one inverter, or even a standalone inverter, is whether they are parallel stackable inverters, meaning you can stack a bunch of the same model inverters together to get more inverter output amperage, more PV inputs, etc.

Stackable inverters connect via comm cables to sync their sine waves, and wire in parallel, and can usually stack anywhere from 6-10 inverters into various topologies, like for single-phase, split-phase, 3-phase, etc.

I always recommend to download the manual for a prospective inverter you're considering, and read through it, look at the specs, the stacking topologies, etc... Stackable inverter means you can continue to scale out to large system, and also adds better redundancy in case of component failure.

And you just parallel in as many battery packs onto the DC input power bus to provide the KWh of storage you require, it's not hard to do, just make sure every cable is protected with proper rated fuse or breaker connections, and emergency disconnects if required by code.

Thanks, now it makes a little more sense for me. I will have a welding machine in my garage and some heat pumps, so I will definetly go for a 3-phase solution. Maybe a dumb question, but is it possible to parallel three single-phase inverter to get a three phase inverter, or can't program the sine wave for that.

Yeah I'm planning to draw out the complete electrical system. I'm going to follow a course via my work, which will dive into all the regulations about electrical fuses, breaker and so on. So I hope I also will get some info about the regulations of low voltage DC components.

Yeah usually when on-grid, you'd go check with your local power company to find out what your local rules are on DIY, and specific code requirements, inspection procedures (or if necessary, they should be able to refer you to any proper regulatory entity).

In many cases, off-grid doesn't have any special rules since you're not connecting to their grid. But they still might have building wiring codes for safety, etc (can check with your city or county building dept)..

I also think that will be the best option for me. I will post my finding somewhere on the forum, so maybe some fellow dutchies can get some info out of it. The course I will follow, allows you to approve and inspect electrical installation and perform loads switches on them, so there is a good chance I maybe authorised to approve my own work hahaha. We will see.

@Pfsolar here in Slovakia, I discovered that even if I don't grid-tie my system, I have to inform the local electric distribution company about my PV panels (and they aren't grid tied). Obviously, if it will be feeding back into the grid (or even capable of it, like hybrid inverters), there's more paperwork involved. I would call or email your electrical distribution company as a starter for learning what the regulations are.

I think that will be also the case for me, because our government likes paperwork and silly rules. Do you have a off-grid system? If yes, may I ask what your specs are, because you have quite similiar solar irradiation.

 

[Samsonite801]

That is indeed a really good point. I indeed would prefer that the BMS and the inverter/solar charger have a communication link. I'm still planning to build the battery myself, so I've to investigate which BMS' are able to communicate with the inverter I will chose. Thanks for the heads up.

For example, we know that an MPP Solar / Voltronic can talk to a Seplos BMS which use the Pylontech protocol, however, you can't use the Seplos with CAN bus, you have to specify to Seplos you want the RS485 one for the interface which connects to the inverter. Just one of those weird examples of how you have to make sure the language protocol is right (say Pylontech, Lib, or whatever), but also the physical layer connection medium (CAN bus, RS232, RS485).

Ahh I did not know that. I'm a mechanical engineer who works sometimes on diesel generator, so I've some understanding of Electrical basic princeples. Indeed the way you type it, it make sense. That puts Victron back in the scope, because I really like that brand as we use it very commonly in my workfield.


Yeah I've read about that somewhere in this forum. That is why I like the Sol-ark so much, because it is a little more flexible.


Thanks, now it makes a little more sense for me. I will have a welding machine in my garage and some heat pumps, so I will definetly go for a 3-phase solution. Maybe a dumb question, but is it possible to parallel three single-phase inverter to get a three phase inverter, or can't program the sine wave for that.

Yeah I'm planning to draw out the complete electrical system. I'm going to follow a course via my work, which will dive into all the regulations about electrical fuses, breaker and so on. So I hope I also will get some info about the regulations of low voltage DC components.

Most of the stackable inverters do 3-phase, but not all. Again, this goes into why you need to read the manual too before you buy it, because they show all the stacking topologies in there. I know my MPP Solar LV6548's can do 3-phase with 3 inverters.

If I remember right, a Sol-Ark Sales Rep said once in a group Zoom call our co-op had with them, that Sol-Ark can do 3-phase using only 2 inverters (but I never checked their manual to see if that's true)... I know for sure they can do 3-phase though in some configuration. Manual will confirm all the supported topologies...

I also think that will be the best option for me. I will post my finding somewhere on the forum, so maybe some fellow dutchies can get some info out of it. The course I will follow, allows you to approve and inspect electrical installation and perform loads switches on them, so there is a good chance I maybe authorised to approve my own work hahaha. We will see.


I think that will be also the case for me, because our government likes paperwork and silly rules. Do you have a off-grid system? If yes, may I ask what your specs are, because you have quite similiar solar irradiation.

Yeah, I'm off-grid. I haven't assembled my final 48v house system yet, currently in a motorhome 12v setup with 2 Victron 250|100 charge controllers, 16x 405w solar panels, a Magnum 2800w inverter and 22KWh of LFP battery (six Overkill 120a BMSs).

I do have all the parts for my final 48v system sitting in a storage unit. I have four MPP Solar LV6548s, 40KWh of LFP battery (three 16s packs), four Seplos 200a BMS (one earmarked as spare), four JBD 200a BMSs (was going to use those before I changed my mind to Seplos), 32x 400-405w solar panels, etc.. Will add up to 32x more solar panels later if needed.

I too will be powering shop equipment, so I figured I might need a bit of extra beef to back the bigger loads if needed. I figure I could power down two of the inverters most of the time when I'm not using the larger shop equipment...

 

[houseofancients]

Hi,

Let me do a quick introduction. I'm a currently building a house in the Netherlands in Europe, together with my dad. We currently have net metering in the Netherlands, but it is planned to be reduce each year, starting in 2023. My dad asked me a couple of times if I'm going to install a battery pack in my new house together with the solar panels. Such a ''hybrid'' system is not very common in my country and aren't a lot of supplier for battery banks and bimodal inverters. To see if it was somewhat logical I did some calculations on the system of my parents. I still live with my parents and they have a 6 kW solar array with Enphase micro-inverters. After doing the math I calculated a battery bank of 10.5 kWh would reduce their electical bill with 1100 euro each year. So after that I was conviced that I'm going to install a battery bank together with the solar system.
The last month I've been reading into the different relevant subjects of solar and diy batteries. I've a qoute of a solar installer who offered me an 11 kW solar system and a SolarEdge SE7K as an inverter. (He doesn't know I'm planning to install a battery bank.). This inverter is not suitable for a hybrid system to my knowdledge.

As I was doing research I've saw the terms AC- and DC-coupling, and my preference goes to DC-coupling. This due it simplicity and efficiency, please correct me if I'm wrong.

So my plan is that the solar installer installs the (11kW of) panels on my roof, and that I will install the inverter(this could also be done by the solar company if they have a suitable inverter) and the DIY battery. I know that their are more components, like wires, fuses and breakers.

This brings me to my question:
What is the best inverter for my scenario; What will be the easiest to install and best bang for the buck.
Personally I really like the Sol-ark inverter, due to their simplicity and all-in-one, but their not easy to get your hands on (cheapily) in Europe.

I know that their are a couple of options such as individual MPPT or battery inverters, but I've not a lot of space left in my technical room.

I also know that I probably forgot to tell a lot of relevant information for you guys to answers my questions. So don't hesitate ask my more information

Thanks in advance!

in my humble opinion sunsynk/deye.
@Keith Gough actually posted videoa on his yt on an install he did in i believe almere

 

[houseofancients]

For example, we know that an MPP Solar / Voltronic can talk to a Seplos BMS which use the Pylontech protocol, however, you can't use the Seplos with CAN bus, you have to specify to Seplos you want the RS485 one for the interface which connects to the inverter. Just one of those weird examples of how you have to make sure the language protocol is right (say Pylontech, Lib, or whatever), but also the physical layer connection medium.




Most of the stackable inverters do 3-phase, but not all. Again, this goes into why you need to read the manual too before you buy it, because they show all the stacking topologies in there. I know my MPP Solar LV6548's can do 3-phase with 3 inverters.

If I remember right, a Sol-Ark Sales Rep said once in a group Zoom call our co-op had with them, that Sol-Ark can do 3-phase using only 2 inverters (but I never checked their manual to see if that's true)... I know for sure they can do 3-phase though in some configuration. Manual will confirm all the supported topologies...





Yeah, I'm off-grid. I haven't assembled my final 48v house system yet, currently in a motorhome 12v setup with 2 Victron 250|100 charge controllers, 16x 405w solar panels, a Magnum 2800w inverter and 22KWh of LFP battery (six Overkill 120a BMSs).

I do have all the parts for my final 48v system sitting in a storage unit. I have four MPP Solar LV6548s, 40KWh of LFP battery (three 16s packs), four Seplos 200a BMS (one earmarked as spare), four JBD 200a BMSs (was going to use those before I changed my mind to Seplos), 32x 400-405w solar panels, etc.. Will add up to 32x more solar panels later if needed.

I too will be powering shop equipment, so I figured I might need a bit of extra beef to back the bigger loads if needed. I figure I could power down two of the inverters most of the time when I'm not using the larger shop equipment...

lv=low voltage= usa 120/240

 

[Samsonite801]

lv=low voltage= usa 120/240

Yeah, I was mainly just referring to the LV's since that's what I had. Of course if the OP wound up looking at MPP Solar (instead of Voltron), he'd want to look at the MPP Solar PIP models, not the LVxxxx models...

Thanks for bringing that up, it's good to clarify that here...

 

[houseofancients]

Yeah, I was mainly just referring to the LV's since that's what I had. Of course if the OP wound up looking at MPP Solar (instead of Voltron), he'd want to look at the MPP Solar PIP models, not the LVxxxx models...

Thanks for bringing that up, it's good to clarify that here...

to be really clear..
voltronics = mpp solar = voltacon
mpp solar is a bad idea here in the eu, as they do not adhere to eu warantees.
there are a number of eu voltronics distri that do offer those warantee terms, which is why i choose my axpert 8000 max's from italy

also i like the support to be in my local timezone

 

[freedomlives]

to be really clear..
voltronics = mpp solar = voltacon
mpp solar is a bad idea here in the eu, as they do not adhere to eu warantees.
there are a number of eu voltronics distri that do offer those warantee terms, which is why i choose my axpert 8000 max's from italy

also i like the support to be in my local timezone

Do you have a link to the axpert seller in Italy?

 

[houseofancients]

Do you have a link to the axpert seller in Italy?

solarpower24.it ( this is where i bought my axpert 8000 maxes)

 

[freedomlives]

solarpower24.it ( this is where i bought my axpert 8000 maxes)

I emailed them. They should have more in stock mid October. Just noticed as well that their prices are 10% VAT, apparently some green energy scheme in Italy as long as it goes to a home install, so that is an added bonus.

 

[sergea]

I emailed them. They should have more in stock mid October. Just noticed as well that their prices are 10% VAT, apparently some green energy scheme in Italy as long as it goes to a home install, so that is an added bonus.

10% VAT is only for Italian customer. Your usual VAT will be add before payment.

I got 2 inverters from them ship in 3 days. ;-) . but I still prefer my DEYE. ;-)

 

[Goboatingnow]

Certainly in my European country you are free to install upto 12 sq metres of panels on your roof or cover 50 % or less without any form of permission at all. Over that it’s a simple process

If not grid tied no further permission is needed for self install. Grid tied is limited to 8kw max , and install must be certified

 

[freedomlives]

10% VAT is only for Italian customer. Your usual VAT will be add before payment.

I got 2 inverters from them ship in 3 days. ;-) . but I still prefer my DEYE. ;-)

If only I'd known of them before my wife's cousin came from Italy to visit for August!

Does DEYE have an AIO like the Axpert King II?

 

[houseofancients]

If only I'd known of them before my wife's cousin came from Italy to visit for August!

Does DEYE have an AIO like the Axpert King II?

and then some...
will be replacing my maxes by deye/sinsynk in a next project