Break'n the Law! Codes?

[Deleted member 165]

The first paragraph says if you have many grounding electrodes at the same building or structure they must be bonded.

The second paragraph says you don't actually need the second grounding electrode if your off-grid system is in your house. Adding the second electrode and not tying it to your house system is actually a code violation in of itself and is more illegal than tying to your existing house ground.

IF you are in a seperate building or structure, then they need not be bonded unless you have power being fed from another building or structure.

Thanks! I get it now. I'll take the 1,000' roll of ground wire out of my Amazon cart ;-)

 

[svetz]

Use common sense .

Common sense is to follow the NEC. It's not about intrusive government. It's about a ton of engineering and testing to figure out the best and safest way to do something. AFAIK, except for 250.54 as per the video, the rules all make sense (understanding them, like practice, is something else).

 

[Supervstech]

Ummm...I just did. I used a water jet. Took 5 minutes and I didnt even dent the rod. Work smart, not hard. If you use steel I would encase it in concrete.

I am saying, the copper rod at Home Depot is steel with a copper coating.

 

[Deleted member 165]

I am saying, the copper rod at Home Depot is steel with a copper coating.

Dang, you're right. Sorry, I misunderstood you. They definitely mis-represented that at the store, but I guess that's all that's available.

 

[offgriddle]

At the end of the day you should have a strong understanding of NEC Article 250 before doing any grounding to a building, which is a daunting task. Often times this is why licensed electricians are needed when it comes to any sort of building wiring. It will vary from setup to setup, for example in Schlagger's case where his building is 800 feet away. If there is power ran from the other building it's different than if it's just a shed with nothing else in it. The NEC alone has many "Gotcha's" and exceptions and there are other codes besides the NEC that apply, so unless you have a strong understanding of code then it's better to consult a professional than do something and realize it voided your homeowner's insurance policy and your house is a pile of ash.



It is indeed daunting. Maybe I'm being pessimistic. If you are unsure then don't just guess. Code books are written in blood - People have died and buildings have burned so amendments have been made.

Ok, the Natty Electrical Code book is about $125 and they upgrade every few years and I have purchased several. I believe that the code book is also available on line, used to be for free. Grounding and Bonding is the section you need to locate and read. Multiple ground rods, (the most common is copper clad steel), must be bonded together and individual components of an electricial system should also be bonded together. In doing so, the lighting doesn't find a better path to ground through any particular component. With that being said, lighting is a wild and wooly force of nature and can and will find it's own path, we just try to manage it and minimize damage. Peace

 

[offgriddle]

Excellent!

The ground systems should be tied together. If you have something on your seperate "off grid" system having a ground fault and touch the ground system of your house, there is a risk of shock because the earth has resistance. If they are tied together, then they are of equal potential and there is no risk of shock if you touch the grounding conductor of both systems. This is covered in NEC Article 250.

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[HighTechLab]

Its my feeling that some people get too carried away worrying what some other person or body will think. We are becoming a world of weak wooses. Allowing the Government to pervase its way into everything in our lives . That's not what they were invented for.

Most solar installations are low voltage . ie below 90 volt DC and again despite the wooses that will tell you otherwise DC welders are approved and used at up to 90 volts anyway as are many goods sold .

Why let it worry you . Use common sense . You can buy and use 240 volt a/c inverters ,for use in your car and van and home without any restrictions on the 240V a/c side . You don't need fuses or rcd's or circuit breakers on that part and that's the dangerous end. So be sensible and watch yourself and others around 110 V and 240V. Build in some RCD's on that side. That will show your intentions were always safety first and that stands up good in court if you are charged with negligence or if the insurance company tries to shaft you with a negligence claim.

Start here.

You can buy and use 240 volt a/c inverters ,for use in your car and van and home without any restrictions on the 240V a/c side

Based on this code actually does apply to RV's. You do need RCD's and Circuit breakers.

A welding machine is a listed assembly, so NEC doesn't apply, however,
Article 110:

 

[James12345]

View attachment 422
Start here.


View attachment 423
Based on this code actually does apply to RV's. You do need RCD's and Circuit breakers.

A welding machine is a listed assembly, so NEC doesn't apply, however,
Article 110:
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Yeah, but if everybody followed the code, this forum wouldn't exist. I'm torn on the subject.

 

[koppted]

Ok, the Natty Electrical Code book is about $125 and they upgrade every few years and I have purchased several. I believe that the code book is also available on line, used to be for free. Grounding and Bonding is the section you need to locate and read. Multiple ground rods, (the most common is copper clad steel), must be bonded together and individual components of an electricial system should also be bonded together. In doing so, the lighting doesn't find a better path to ground through any particular component. With that being said, lighting is a wild and wooly force of nature and can and will find it's own path, we just try to manage it and minimize damage. Peace

Sorry for being a dunce on this. Just need some clarification. Are you saying that if I build a solar system in a shed that is not grid tied whatsoever. I still have to tie the ground for my solar setup to the ground for the house?

 

[Deleted member 165]

Sorry for being a dunce on this. Just need some clarification. Are you saying that if I build a solar system in a shed that is not grid tied whatsoever. I still have to tie the ground for my solar setup to the ground for the house?

I'm going to let the smarter people answer, but what I can't wrap my mind around is how every house in town has a grounding rod in the earth, and they are all on 1/10 acre lots, give or take, and obviously not tied together.

 

[HighTechLab]

If they are a seperate building or structure they do not need to be tied together UNLESS there are conductors from the other building present in your shed.

 

[koppted]

I'm going to let the smarter people answer, but what I can't wrap my mind around is how every house in town has a grounding rod in the earth, and they are all on 1/10 acre lots, give or take, and obviously not tied together.

That was going to be my follow up, lol. It just seems strange to me, given the proximity of a lot of houses out there whose grounding systems are not in anyway tied together

 

[Supervstech]

I'm going to let the smarter people answer, but what I can't wrap my mind around is how every house in town has a grounding rod in the earth, and they are all on 1/10 acre lots, give or take, and obviously not tied together.

That was going to be my follow up, lol. It just seems strange to me, given the proximity of a lot of houses out there whose grounding systems are not in anyway tied together

What makes you think the grounding system isn’t tied together?

Ever noticed the number of wires feeding from a single transformer in these neighborhoods? Guess what... the transformer is grounded, and the neutral feeder is bonded to the ground at the pole, and at the meter base...

 

[Supervstech]

Trust me... the utility company knows how to bond things on their power supply to the houses...

Are you thinking your solar power system somehow doesn’t need as much protection as theirs?

 

[eddie1261]

Its my feeling that some people get too carried away worrying what some other person or body will think. We are becoming a world of weak wooses. Allowing the Government to pervase its way into everything in our lives . That's not what they were invented for.

Yeah!! How dare that government try to keep people safe? Next thing you know they will want smoke detectors in houses and seat belts in cars!!!

 

[koppted]

Trust me... the utility company knows how to bond things on their power supply to the houses...

Are you thinking your solar power system somehow doesn’t need as much protection as theirs?

Not at all, what you've laid out is actually news to me. For some reason i thought grounding rods/systems for houses were all independent for each house. Didn't realize utility companies merged these things. Sorry if i'm coming off as being care free about it. I'm genuinely curious and don't know one way or the other.

 

[Supervstech]

Not at all, what you've laid out is actually news to me. For some reason i thought grounding rods/systems for houses were all independent for each house. Didn't realize utility companies merged these things. Sorry if i'm coming off as being care free about it. I'm genuinely curious and don't know one way or the other.

Grounding bonds are important, and keeping all ground potentials equal is the best way to keep equipment and people safe.

 

[Deleted member 165]

Are you thinking your solar power system somehow doesn’t need as much protection as theirs?

There's no need for the snarkiness. You're a moderator??

 

[Supervstech]

Snarkiness not intended. Sorry to offend.
I worry about electrical problems and shock hazards for people.

 

[offgriddle]

Sorry for being a dunce on this. Just need some clarification. Are you saying that if I build a solar system in a shed that is not grid tied whatsoever. I still have to tie the ground for my solar setup to the ground for the house?

Firstly, "To Ground is Divine"! Secondly, we are all here to learn from one another and simply by the fact of asking questions and tackling technical projects means your no dunce, au contraire, you are one very cool hominid who is curious, energetic, stoked to learn and engaged in the present moment. ~ Mmkay, my panels are about 75' away from my house's power closet and they are mounted on a temporary mount and I haven't driven a ground out there yet to ground them but I'm going to. My MPPT charge controller, invertor and lipo batteries are bonded together and attached to a copper ground rod driven into the oith via a 6 gauge bare copper wire which attaches to the rod via a direct burial clamp, in as moist soil as possible. Essentially, the negative wire coming from my to be grounded solar panels acts as a bond to the components in my equipment closet, but if one wishes to split hairs, a miniscule time domain difference occurs in 75' of cable when electricity travels through it, which in my humble opinion doesn't represent an issue. Peace.

 

[Supervstech]

Firstly, "To Ground is Divine"! Secondly, we are all here to learn from one another and simply by the fact of asking questions and tackling technical projects means your no dunce, au contraire, you are one very cool hominid who is curious, energetic, stoked to learn and engaged in the present moment. ~ Mmkay, my panels are about 75' away from my house's power closet and they are mounted on a temporary mount and I haven't driven a ground out there yet to ground them but I'm going to. My MPPT charge controller, invertor and lipo batteries are bonded together and attached to a copper ground rod driven into the oith via a 6 gauge bare copper wire which attaches to the rod via a direct burial clamp, in as moist soil as possible. Essentially, the negative wire coming from my to be grounded solar panels acts as a bond to the components in my equipment closet, but if one wishes to split hairs, a miniscule time domain difference occurs in 75' of cable when electricity travels through it, which in my humble opinion doesn't represent an issue. Peace.

Lernin is good! I am always ready to be corrected, and am always learning. PLEASE don’t take something I say as an insult or gospel truth. I will happily accept corrections on anything I have stated.

I believe the PV system needs to be earth grounded, not needed to be bonded to the home, and from the CC and inverter, it should be grounded to earth, and the grounding conductor be connected to all grounds in the ac power system.
If there is no connectivity to the house, bonding to the house grounding system isn’t required. It won’t hurt, but it won’t be a problem.
If the inverter feeds the house, the grounding conductor needs to have an uninterrupted conductor the the house grounding system.

 

[b.james]

Yeah!! How dare that government try to keep people safe? Next thing you know they will want smoke detectors in houses and seat belts in cars!!!

Yeh Nanny state Yayyyhh ...cant buy this ,can't buy that . You ain't seen nothing till you come to OZ . Cant even buy Alum any more for tanning . Have to import it from the states. Creosote is a no no . Lots of other bans. That's not even looking at guns.

 

[offgriddle]

Lernin is good! I am always ready to be corrected, and am always learning. PLEASE don’t take something I say as an insult or gospel truth. I will happily accept corrections on anything I have stated.

I believe the PV system needs to be earth grounded, not needed to be bonded to the home, and from the CC and inverter, it should be grounded to earth, and the grounding conductor be connected to all grounds in the ac power system.
If there is no connectivity to the house, bonding to the house grounding system isn’t required. It won’t hurt, but it won’t be a problem.
If the inverter feeds the house, the grounding conductor nemakes sense to meeds to have an uninterrupted conductor the the house grounding system.

Lernin is good! I am always ready to be corrected, and am always learning. PLEASE don’t take something I say as an insult or gospel truth. I will happily accept corrections on anything I have stated.

I believe the PV system needs to be earth grounded, not needed to be bonded to the home, and from the CC and inverter, it should be grounded to earth, and the grounding conductor be connected to all grounds in the ac power system.
If there is no connectivity to the house, bonding to the house grounding system isn’t required. It won’t hurt, but it won’t be a problem.
If the inverter feeds the house, the grounding conductor needs to have an uninterrupted conductor the the house grounding system.

Yep, I think it's good to bond the aluminum frames of the solar panels together and attach to a ground source not only for lighting supression but also because the panels produce voltage so an extra measure of safety when touching the panels is good. This seems to be super thorough and good article: http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publ...rounding/pdfs/SystemGrounding_studyreport.pdf

 

[b.james]

On my house system I have two strings of 6 panels . Each string then puts out 180 Volts . The panels are rated to 1000 Volts so I could run a string of 33 panels if I could feed the inverter that much .Not any that I have seen go over 500V . At these voltages even though they are on glass and double insulated I think grounding is just sensible.

However on my 2.5Kw 200Ah @24 volts I charge with 2 off 250 watt panels just slung up on the roof . They put out about 60 Volts in series and 8 amps . I don't bother grounding them.
MPPT converts that to about double the amps at 16 Amps going into the battery

 

[Supervstech]

On my house system I have two strings of 6 panels . Each string then puts out 180 Volts . The panels are rated to 1000 Volts so I could run a string of 33 panels if I could feed the inverter that much .Not any that I have seen go over 500V . At these voltages even though they are on glass and double insulated I think grounding is just sensible.

However on my 2.5Kw 200Ah @24 volts I charge with 2 off 250 watt panels just slung up on the roof . They put out about 60 Volts in series and 8 amps . I don't bother grounding them.
MPPT converts that to about double the amps at 16 Amps going into the battery

Don’t think of the voltages, think of what could buildup on exposed metal. Static charges, lightning, etc. It isn’t always about what could hurt you working on or around the panels, but what large metal objects can induce to a structure or area... house fires, are just as important to prevent as electrical shocks.

Keep in mind, you are connecting wires with 500 watts of instant electricity. At 24v, that equates to 20AMPS a weak electrical connection or worn wire can cause a LOT of heat at 20 amps... most soldering irons are less than 80watts...
stay safe. A little ground wire isn’t going to cost much money or time, but it could help blow a fuse if something failed.