Building a power cart, need some GFCI clarification

[Q-Dog]

tl;dr: Is GFCI wanted or needed on a power cart used outdoors and indoors?

I have most of the components to put together a power cart but I have questions about GFCI. Is it necessary? We plan to drag this thing around the property and even into the shed for portable power.

Here is the dilemma: I thought I ordered an inverter with a built in GFCI, because I thought i would want/need the protection. It showed up without GFCI (one digit difference in the model number, ugh). Anyway. What do I need to worry about with a portable power cart and does the GFCI matter? I have contacted the vendor and they offered to swap it out but no idea what the shipping back and forth will cost me. I hate to go through the hassle if it doesn't matter.

I am planning a metal frame on wheels, wooden mounting board, batteries on the bottom, inverter, plug-in battery charger, and maybe a solar charge controller (since I may have a spare once we get our big panel array put up). Components: Victron 24/1200 inverter, victron IP22 8 amp charger, 100ah of cheap batteries, maybe a victron 100/20 SCC, plus whatever wire, fuses and disconnects necessary to connect everything.

Thanks.

 

[DPC]

I would

Before Lithium power tools became common and cheap some of the construction crews I worked with have the electrical dept build karts with a pair of golf kart batteries

The inverters were used were a 3000 watt Xantrex with a GFCI receptacle or a Canadian tire store brand MSW and both worked reliably in pretty awful damp dirty conditions.

I see no problem do it that way....

Your asking if its needed now that I read your post again.
I assume no liability for your actions based on any of my own comments they are just opinion.
If you feel something should be done to improve safety I suggest you act on that feeling.

You should consult the manuals that came with your product and you could even make a telephone call to the local electrical safety authority in your areas and ask for advice.
Those folks never want to see an accident and will give you good advice too..

Me, I'm just some old fart in another country giving free advice on the internet and you have no idea what I do or do not know so keep internet advice in mind....

 

[timselectric]

GFCI protection doesn't add any functionality.
It adds another layer of personal protection.
For this reason I will have GFCI receptacles on my portable power cart.

 

[DPC]

Since you brought up power karts.
These used to be pretty common and I am pretty sure someone still makes something like it you can buy.
Its all engineered and made to be safe and functional also it meets codes..

 

[Q-Dog]

Since you brought up power karts.
These used to be pretty common and I am pretty sure someone still makes something like it you can buy.
Its all engineered and made to be safe and functional also it meets codes..

View attachment 203948

I looked at those years ago. If I recall, modified sine wave and lead acid batteries.

 

[DPC]

YA that exact one if memory served used lead acid, it had a 1000 watt or 1200 watt Modified square wave inverter too.
They were good little units and they were relatively cheap.

The ones we used were purchased from Canadian Tire.
They wheels tended to break

Guys tended to abuse them but they were safe and as long as the battery was kept charge they were fine.
Cant tell you who made it....

I have the inverter out of one of them that was crushed in my shed.
Come to think of it...
I'm going to install that inverter in my washing machine for camp.

 

[Q-Dog]

GFCI protection doesn't add any functionality.
It adds another layer of personal protection.
For this reason I will have GFCI receptacles on my portable power cart.

Are there any downsides to having the GFCI? When my wife heard it could have wheels she asked if it will run the corded hedge trimmer, and we have got the cord caught in the blades a couple of times. This is why I thought GFCI would be beneficial.

 

[timselectric]

Are there any downsides to having the GFCI?

Nope
Unless you plug something in that causes nuisance tripping. But that's an equipment problem, not a GFCI problem.

 

[Dagoth Ur Does Solar]

GFCI protection doesn't add any functionality.
It adds another layer of personal protection.
For this reason I will have GFCI receptacles on my portable power cart.

For my own education: assuming you had a power cart that you're using outdoors, it's on wheels and insulated from the actual earth, and you have no special grounding rod or anything of the sort for it, you're still getting a degree of shock protection from having a GFCI receptacle, right?

I seem to recall looking online that in residential homes, if you're retrofitting a receptacle in an house with old wiring that has no ground conductor, adding a modern GFCI receptacle in its place was an acceptable retrofit (so long as you marked it with "No Equipment Ground" or something similar).

I guess what I'm asking is, the GFCI protection scheme can operate independently of having a true earth ground, right?

 

[740GLE]

Are there any downsides to having the GFCI? When my wife heard it could have wheels she asked if it will run the corded hedge trimmer, and we have got the cord caught in the blades a couple of times. This is why I thought GFCI would be beneficial.

Just stay away from GFIC with Arc fault.

If you’re looking to add say a 70a load center with say a Square D QO breaker.

Arc fault protection does not like to play well with large brushed motors, you know the large motors that constantly arc when running.

GFIC is all you’d need.

 

[Brucey]

Are there any downsides to having the GFCI? When my wife heard it could have wheels she asked if it will run the corded hedge trimmer, and we have got the cord caught in the blades a couple of times. This is why I thought GFCI would be beneficial.

I'm glad my 48/1200 doesn't have the duplex GFCI outlet, and just the plain single 5-15. Basically it can protect you if you are in the habit of working with electricity and there's an equipment fault while you are holding it and standing barefoot in a puddle of water. I have them in my basement and it's a pain when they sometimes nuisance trip when there's a grid outage/brownout.

 

[Q-Dog]

I'm glad my 48/1200 doesn't have the duplex GFCI outlet, and just the plain single 5-15. Basically it can protect you if you are in the habit of working with electricity and there's an equipment fault while you are holding it and standing barefoot in a puddle of water. I have them in my basement and it's a pain when they sometimes nuisance trip when there's a grid outage/brownout.

It is likely I won't be the main user and I want it to be safe and bulletproof. I didn't even know Victron made this unit without the GFCI. Not enough research on my part. Got caught by that blue fever.

 

[Brucey]

The way I see it, if I've got a Victron inverter for critical needs, that GFCI outlet is something that cannot be reset except manually. If it's a remote setup, you are dead in the water. I just want the inverter to work, like I would expect an IP22 charger to work. The non GFCI allows that.

 

[timselectric]

For my own education: assuming you had a power cart that you're using outdoors, it's on wheels and insulated from the actual earth, and you have no special grounding rod or anything of the sort for it, you're still getting a degree of shock protection from having a GFCI receptacle, right?

Correct

I guess what I'm asking is, the GFCI protection scheme can operate independently of having a true earth ground, right?

Also correct

An earth ground connection doesn't save anyone from electrical shock. A N/G bond does that job. And a GFCI can provide extra protection. (It's more sensitive)

 

[timselectric]

The way I see it, if I've got a Victron inverter for critical needs, that GFCI outlet is something that cannot be reset except manually. If it's a remote setup, you are dead in the water. I just want the inverter to work, like I would expect an IP22 charger to work. The non GFCI allows that.

If it's inside and away from moisture, I would agree.
But these portable carts can be used in many environments. And safety is always my first priority with electricity.

 

[DPC]

An earth ground connection doesn't save anyone from electrical shock

Yikes....
Yes it can and does.
That's why we still bond all metal parts on electrical equipment even if they part of something using an un-grounded delta power system as one specific example

An easy to find example around the house of how much or a poke you can get look around for an old radio with tubes in it.
Plug it tune it to your favourite station.
Now touch things you think might be safe while its on.
See how long that can go on before you get a surprise.

 

[timselectric]

Yikes....
Yes it can and does.
That's why we still bond all metal parts on electrical equipment even if they part of something using an un-grounded delta power system as one specific example

An easy to find example around the house of how much or a poke you can get look around for an old radio with tubes in it.
Plug it tune it to your favourite station.
Now touch things you think might be safe while its on.
See how long that can go on before you get a surprise.

View attachment 203971

Connection to earth only affects static electricity.
Not generated electricity.
The earth connection does two things.
Makes the local earth safe, in regards to the electrical system. (If that electrical system is bonded)
And dissipates atmospheric (static) charge.

 

[Q-Dog]

Since my original thought was to get the GFCI version, if it doesn't cost me a forture to swap it I will. OR, I have a dead air conditioner with a GFCI cord that I could wire into a power strip to make something like this:

 

[DPC]

Connection to earth only affects static electricity.
Not generated electricity.

In AC power systems you get capacitive coupling between life and non current carrying parts even if they are not conductive
In this photo we have a medium voltage cable Lets pretend for a second that we peel back just enough of the outer layers of an energized cable to expose the white layer of Kynar insulation.
It is an insulator so you would expect it to be safe to touch.
Let me assure you IT IS NOT...
You could be killed...

I have on the other hand bare handed the cable as far in as the shield.
But let me tell you if you don't have that Semi layer and the copper to drain off the charge the capacitive coupling will build up enough potential its as dangerous as touching the actual conductor.

Lets have a look at another example a transformer

In this case you can capacitvely couple the primary to the secondary without a bond to drain the charge off.
Look closely at a transformer and you will notice the primary is usually wound over the secondary and the core is.
So we want to bond both the secondary to ground and the core.
Sometimes on an grounded Delta power system you can still read some voltage from the line side.
But a properly designed and bonded instillation will be relatively safe ( but with stability problems, why its no popular to wire this way anymore )

Add some actual capcitors to a system now.
As they age they build up charges inside the caps in places that will not easily drain.
In time a disconnected used Cap might bounce back as we call it, this means even if you discharged it before hand the residual charge inside can work it way to the terminals and give you a nasty surprise.

Add some high frequency electronics to the mix and it can be unpredictable how things will develop charges inside and out.

SO GFCI Good.
Bond where you can....


I assume no liability for your choices based on my little talk here.

 

[Brucey]

Since my original thought was to get the GFCI version, if it doesn't cost me a forture to swap it I will. OR, I have a dead air conditioner with a GFCI cord that I could wire into a power strip to make something like this:
View attachment 203985

Yes they aren't expensive if you want to buy new, $26

https://www.amazon.com/DEWENWILS-Outdoor-Automatic-Extension-Splitter/dp/B08G4HNCR1