California PCS

[islandboy]

Hello, I would like some clarification on inverters in California. As I understand it to have battery storage and be able to discharge to the grid from your batteries the inverter has to be "PCS certified" and has to be able to go into a mode that does not allow charging of the batteries from the grid but can discharge from the batteries if that stored energy was generated from solar. Question 1: Does this mean that no import is allowed from the grid at all even for loads directly to the house or just no import to directly charge the batteries? Question 2: I would like to use the Eg4 18k with PowerPro batteries but I don't think it is PCS certified. In the PG&E generation interconnection application when asked "How will you limit export" when "PCS" is selected the Sol-Ark 15k comes up as an option but not the Eg4 18k. When "Derated inverter" is selected the Eg4 18k does come up as an option. What is the best way to go about this? (And maybe I'm understanding things completely wrong)

Thank you

 

[hwy17]

Does this mean that no import is allowed from the grid at all even for loads directly to the house or just no import to directly charge the batteries?

Import is allowed, import to charge batteries is allowed, exporting power from batteries that was imported is not allowed.

Hence, PCS to deal with the complexity of that equation.

 

[Zeebest001]

I am also in California and I am also about to order the EG4 18k. and 2 of the Power Pro batteries. So will PGE allow the EG4 18k, or not?

 

[islandboy]

I know that the EG4 18k is on the CEC list but I don't know if it is PCS certified. Can someone provide an answer as to wether the 18k is PCS certified? Contacting Eg4 directly hasn't yielded a reply yet.

 

[darrell2002]

Probably not. If you download the CEC spreadsheet and search PCS you will find many inverters with PCS shown in the description column. The 18kpv doesn't show PCS in its description cell unfortunately.

 

[oakleaf]

I recently went through this. PG&E will not allow it.

@EG4_Jared @EG4_Jarrett @EG4_Ty Can you help with this?
I got this response below.

Please provide the following items:
1. CRD – PCS
Per PG&E Tariffs (Special Conditions Section 9.e.), since the total storage inverter is >10kW, either one of
the following options is required in order to prove that all exports to the grid come from the solar
equipment and not the battery. Please note that this is a California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC)
requirement :
1. Install a non-export relay to assure no export from the storage to grid
OR
3. EG4 Electronics LLC/ 18KPV-12LV [240V] [SI1-SB]is not listed on the California Energy Commissions (CEC)
as being PCS CRD certified. PCS CRD certification confirms that the storage system meets the NEM definition of No Grid Charging or No Storage Export and is considered an “addition” or “enhancement” to the NEM system and the entire system will be 100% NEM. Please reach out to the manufacturer (EG4 Electronics LLC) and request if they can provide you documentation that the specific inverter above meets the PCS CRD requirements. Respond back to this email with the documentation so I can have the Distribution (Engineering) Team review the documents and approve the inverters for use.
Please see the following links provided below for more information on the requirements (specifically special conditions 9.e of the NEM Tariff)
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/adviceletter/ELEC_5880-E.pdf
https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_NEM2.pdf

They made a suggestion to switch to the SolArk. I switched the inverter to SolArk and it was approved for interconnect. My AHJ approved the setup even though the SolArk and the Powerpro batteries are not UL9540 listed. I don't think they checked the model numbers for the listing.

Not sure if I should go though with the install now or not.

 

[oakleaf]

Funny thing is the LuxPower 12k which is the same as the EG4 18k is PCS certified.
Make it make sense!!

 

[islandboy]

What would be the adverse effects of running the PowerPro batteries and the Sol-Ark 15k without closed loop communication?

 

[oakleaf]

Sol-Ark 15k can run with closed loop communication with the batteries. The problem becomes the UL9540 certification. The Sol Ark and the PowerPro batteries together are not certified. They are certified with other inverters and batteries but not together. Depending on the AHJ, you may not get the permit approved.

 

[Hedges]

"Per PG&E Tariffs (Special Conditions Section 9.e.), since the total storage inverter is >10kW, either one of
the following options is required in order to prove that all exports to the grid come from the solar
equipment and not the battery."

Wondering if up to 10kW battery inverter, this gets approved more easily.
At this time I have 3x SMA SBS 5.0, and 2x LG RESU-10H.
I could connect two 5kW inverters, each with one 9.8 kW battery. Or one inverter with both batteries.
WattNode energy meter with CT around L1 & L2 monitors grid. Datacom is apparently available to recent model Sunny Boy. SBS has connections for two WattNode, not clear what second one for, or if it could monitor SB power.

I have NEM 2.0 reservation for 15kW PV system not yet installed, so PG&E portal wouldn't let me start an energy storage project. Planning to telephone as directed, see if I can reserve before the equipment expires off CEC list.

 

[Redflyer]

So they are telling you what you can and can't do with the power you buy from them?

Wow.

 

[Ampster]

I have a GT system under NEM 2.0. I have a building permit for a SolArk with Pytes batteries. I do not intend to ask PG&E for permission to install the SolArk and storage so I am not concerned about the concept of whether I am exporting grid power or solar power. I did look into a SGIP funding but that would have given PG&E more control than I wanted to give them. I found a different way to find my storage purchase. I had already taken the ITC on the SolArk last year.

 

[Hedges]

My interest is shifting export to time of peak rates, a $0.20 to $0.30 premium. Under NEM 2.0, not as big a deal as 3.0.
I figure if I export steady 4kW or 10kW up until 9:00 PM it will be pretty obvious.

So not seeking funding (bought cheap), just PTO.

 

[Ampster]

o not seeking funding (bought cheap), just PTO.

I thought you already had GT solar under a NEM agreement? Is this a new or additional GT solar installation? It it under NEM 2.0?

 

[400bird]

So they are telling you what you can and can't do with the power you buy from them?

Wow.

Sell it back to them. It doesn't seem that unreasonable.

 

[oakleaf]

I recently went through this. PG&E will not allow it.

I got this response below.




They made a suggestion to switch to the SolArk. I switched the inverter to SolArk and it was approved for interconnect. My AHJ approved the setup even though the SolArk and the Powerpro batteries are not UL9540 listed. I don't think they checked the model numbers for the listing.

Not sure if I should go though with the install now or not.

@EG4_Jared @EG4_Jarrett @EG4_Ty Can you help with this? This is holding a bunch of us back from buying the bundle.

 

[Hedges]

I thought you already had GT solar under a NEM agreement? Is this a new or additional GT solar installation? It it under NEM 2.0?

Yes, I have permission to export from PV, or rather will, when my NEM 2.0 system is completed.
I think I need permission to use a battery to export.

If I just used it to shave consumption during peak times, I think that would be OK charging from either PV or grid. Of course, load dump after the sun goes down would produce spurious backfeed, which might seem odd at that hour. (you should see the control loop overshoot and oscillate.)

But I'd like to export all 9.8 or 18.6 kW every day, backfeeding the grid. If $0.25 average spread around the year, about $120 extra credit per month. That will give me 4 year payback on the hardware. Assuming I consume all the credits. The trick is cutting it close without going over and paying through the nose for electric heat instead of enjoying safe, clean, economical gas heat.

 

[gotbeans]

So they are telling you what you can and can't do with the power you buy from them?

Wow.

It's their grid, their lines. It's not certified to whatever they follow so they don't want to deal with it until it is.
You can buy them and NOT gridtie/backfeed, sure

 

[Redflyer]

I agree about the non-grid tie/backfeed.

Exporting power from the batteries that was initially imported off the grid is not allowed. They are trying to tighten up how you work Time of Use.

 

[Ampster]

However they are supportive of Virtual Power Plants where battery storage is aggregated and used to support the grid at times it is stressed. Some Tesla Powerwall who have joined Tesla's VPP have received payment under that arrangement.