Certain Systems/Sizes = Too Much Purchase Risk ...

[50ShadesOfDirt]

... as in, the only way the system should be purchased is if you have an "authorized installer" with a *service contract* to support it. Even this is tricky, because the burden is upon you to evaluate the installer as well as the product. This might be getting beyond the capabilities of a mere mortal ...

The two cases that IMHO represent this new extreme are:
- Generac "whole-house generators" (installed only by authorized dealers)
- EP Cube "home energy storage system" (also installed only by authorized dealers)

You can tell that these fit the new extreme of *you are guaranteed to have problems with this system* by reading the full set of documentation for the system, and making note of the numerous exclusion clauses and phrases that basically say, "it's your fault, not ours ... we aren't paying for it". By reading thru all the docs & warranty guides, you'll know that the vendor is just not on your side. It's more of a tussle between the vendor and the "authorized installer", and you are only a bystander on the sideline who happened to have paid for everything, but has no control over anything.

In this case, you must ensure that there is some kind of reasonable (and paid) yearly service contract between you and the authorized installer, as the installer is the only party that really stands a chance of getting warranty repair, eating any costs that happen to fall back onto the owner, etc. Only a paid contract will cover the installer's efforts, and only this mechanism will protect you from incredible costs and headaches due to problems that arise later.

You are kidding yourself if you think you can do it ... it's a new class of systems that aren't really designed to be DIY. They are designed around "authorized installers", and nobody else. If you don't get into bed with a reputable authorized installer, and if you don't pay them (thru service contacts) to be on your side, you must have very deep pockets, up to and including ripping things out and starting over, all on your nickel.

Things to look for in the docs & warranties that prove the above? How about:
- authorized installer only
- send pics of installation into our service department for approval
- numerous exclusions to all kinds of conditions
- must remain internet-connected
- failure to register by a certain date ... invalidates warranty
- and many more too numerous to list ...

Note that there are many other systems that fit this problem ... don't need to name any names, just review that vendor and product for forum reviews threads, complaints, etc. Then review all the docs for that product. You'll see that they fit the pattern. Many AIO's are going this route ...

Also note that Generac's (and systems like EP Cube) are fine for any home fitting the exact conditions of service within an authorized dealer network; usually, this is dense neighborhoods in highly populated areas, with good access (and money). In essence, they become an external "service" that you can't ever really install/maintain/fix yourself ... it's another form of plumbing, hvac, or electrical that you can't touch, you can only pay for it. If you are within range of an authorized dealer, and there is a service contract that you believe in, it might fit to go the route of these things. It might even improve your home's value, whereas DIY is sometimes iffy in that regard.

But, it will never be a DIY scenario.

I think where this is heading is that you either stay on the DIY path (individual components of solar gear, carefully researched, matched, installed by yourself, maintained/repaired/replaced) where you have full control, or you jump on the "some authorized dealer does it for you" path, and you have no control other than to kick in money and keep kicking it in. This lack of control includes those cases where vendor/installer get into tussles, and ultimately you are left holding the bill for whatever disaster they can't resolve amongst themselves.

I'd say keep DIY'ing, but the other problem coming at us all is that ... the vendors are taking over the supply chain, and individual components may be falling by the wayside ... only massively integrated components, authorized installers, regulatory bodies are there for you to pick from (and read thru).

I'd also say even this forum has changed, such that there is less info about DIY and individual componentry, and more about AIO, massive installer systems, regulations, grief ... perhaps it's even time to split the forum into *only DIY*, and all the rest of this? www.aiosolarforum, or www.hesssolarforum ?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

In essence, they become an external "service" that you can't ever really install/maintain/fix yourself ... it's another form of plumbing, hvac, or electrical that you can't touch, you can only pay for it.

No, it’s not.
John Deere lost a major lawsuit this past year for locking people - by software - out of using/servicing their own equipment in the event of a fault code or breakdown.

If companies are requiring ‘authorized only’ that’s the same thing and it’s illegal for sure.

 

[Madcodger]

No, it’s not.
John Deere lost a major lawsuit this past year for locking people - by software - out of using/servicing their own equipment in the event of a fault code or breakdown.

If companies are requiring ‘authorized only’ that’s the same thing and it’s illegal for sure.

I think both you and the OP (I admittedly skimmed that post) make good points. I have several pieces of equipment (including a John Deere tractor) that are now so complex to work on, I might practically (albeit not legally) be forced to take them to a dealer because local repair guys just can't afford all the equipment and software necessary. I just hate that. It's one reason I'm thinking hard about an off grid, largely DIY solar system for our new home.

If I can design that system (very likely Victron through @HighTechLab I think) and have help from a local electrician and other local labor to install it, free from the local "experts" that market themselves as solar installers, then I don't much care if that "expert" goes belly up. I figure as long as UPS/Fedex/mail is functional, I can get parts eventually, and we'll probably always have some qualified electrician around, even out here in the boonies. I can even keep an extra inverter on the shelf if need be. All this stuff matters to me more than I ever thought it would. I'm far from being a "prepper" - but I sure hate being dependent on others, particularly when so many have proven to be undependable.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

We have "right-to-repair" taking shape in EU ... afaik, it is not taking shape here in the USA ... being talked about at times, but that's it. We let businesses "decide" what is right for us, and us repairing (or even looking under the covers) is generally frowned upon.

That doesn't stop most folks from peeking in there, and seeing what's what, unless you bought into the EPcube system or similar, whose documents say "you can peek, but it'll surely void your warranty", and there's nothing you can do in there anyway ... call your "authorized installer".

So, one of the things for @WillProwse to investigate in his video reviews (of parts & entire systems), IMHO, is ... can I do anything with this system, or will it void the warranty. If it breaks in any form or fashion, what am I looking at (time, effort, cost) to recover from that scenario? Is it even feasible to attempt?

I agree that only a component design gives you half a chance to keep the thing running ... spares program and all (which is required these days). But, are components becoming obsolete ... AIO's are taking over, Magnums are moving inverter production to Mexico (possibly next step is shuttering them as sales fall off), and so on.

An "authorized dealer" design means you call somebody, and hope they and the vendor behind them can figure it out. Again, look at Generac, EPCube, most any AIO (which is mostly a complete system, and moving to be a complete system), Deere tractors (thanks), most cars ... horror stories abound.

 

[Mattb4]

...

Not sure why you think AIO's are not in the DIY area and that only individual components must be used. Certainly there are the Sol-Arks out there and other exclusive dealer only setups. There is also a ton of consumer available AIO's which allow individuals to design and install there own. Frankly AIO's are the way to go for those of us that like all the added features for the costs. I have mostly consigned individual components to the Rotary dial landline phone era of the past.

Warranties are going to be sore point for some. Frankly I am not all that big on needing a warranty beyond initial purchase (if it don't work when received it should be replaced, repaired or refunded)

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

An AIO *should* be replaced/repaired/refunded when it breaks ... as fast as possible ... but threads seem to indicate this won't happen in a day or even a week, and could be weeks/months.

High-end AIO's features & complexity goes up, repair-ability goes down. Warranties are iffy at best; the docs for newer/complex AIO's preclude you from doing anything; the docs for low-end AIO's are moving in this direction as well.

The ability to "swap an AIO" on the fly doesn't fit with most warranty processes these days; it'll take weeks, if not longer. This assumes you can prove it's their fault and they don't end up proving it's yours, and they are the final arbiter.

If you keep an AIO on the shelf, then you're in a better spot, and have insulated yourself from the long-running warranty process, but not many (can or will) do that.

AIO's seem to be moving towards EPcube state ... away from 12v, 24v, 48v low-price (at least still replaceable) individual models towards "systems" all designed to work together and be dealer installed; high-end AIO's talking to high-end batteries, My guess is that there will be less choice for the diy'er over the long term, as these high-end, high-dollar (low support touch) systems squeeze out the low-end diy models (high support touch, for any but most capable diy'er).

Sales chase the high-end, because that's where the money is ... DIY components aren't at the high-end. Is there a CES dedicated to the DIY market? Are vendors still chasing the DIY market, or are they leaning towards systems that are higher-dollar, lower-effort, or worse, only authorized-dealer?

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Isn’t it true that actual processing boards and subassemblies rarely are the failure point even on cheap stuff?
(barring lightning or Stupid Human Tricks)

But if one is offgrid, having a backup aio on a shelf is a fantastic idea. I have a small aio that is part of my backup plan, but the inverter is off. I have an independent inverter for 120VAC needs, and two other inverters that can be swapped in - if it is necessary - in 5-10 minutes. Same with redundant charge controllers. One could be dead and I’d still get some charging.

I think a backup plan and equipment is merely “the cost of doing business” obligationally when “we” take it upon ourselves to be responsible for our own power supply. The backups solve the immediate problem while providing a time-buffer to identify current ‘not obsolete’ replacement equipment whatever it may be.

 

[Madcodger]

I'm not convinced AIOs are "taking over". Sure, many people buy them. And they might even capture a majority of the market. But as long as there are enough of us that prefer separate components, companies like Victron should be just fine. There might be fewer of them, but the best should survive.

I don't even like the idea of having just one SCC (better to have separate ones, each devoted to its own string). And two inverters to produce 240V? Seems smart, as one could reprogram and stay up and running with at least some 120V circuits if necessary.

Two is one, one is none. I can't see a good reason to stop following that maxim.