Deciding between Victron, Enphase and possibly Sol-ark. Input?

[S610]

Victron 6kW with 15kW battery (no mount or install) ($13k)
Sol-Ark 5.4kW with 15kW battery, rack mount, emp hardened, and install included ($32k)
Enphase 8kW with 10kW battery, rack mount, and install included ($32k)

This is an off-grid system that will be professionally installed in a new build house. Dependability along with a user friendly hassle-free interface is important. My gut says go with Victron however I do like that Enphase does not have a single point of failure. The EMP hardening of the Sol-Ark system is also appealing but I am not so sure about the company.

Any strong opinions about this? Is the redundancy of the Enphase system worth going with that brand? Though the Enphase system seems pretty pricey with only 10kW of battery storage.

 

[Quattrohead]

Need far more information like location, size of house, is there specific work being done to make it as energy efficient as possible etc

 

[BentleyJ]

There is a big difference between a 5.4kW and a 8kW system. Seems like you want to base the choice on Brand name and price vs. what you actually need as far as system size to provide adequate solar for your usage. Since this is an Off-Grid system its even more important to size the solar array, inverter and batteries accordingly.

EDIT: Personal Opinion, Enphase makes good equipment BUT If I were Off-Grid I would not want a 100% proprietary system that I couldn't service and had to wait for warranty repairs on someone else's timeline. Victron, Sol-Ark or Schneider would be better for Off-Grid.

 

[S610]

Need far more information like location, size of house, is there specific work being done to make it as energy efficient as possible etc

This will be in an 1100 sq ft home in Northern Arkansas (the Ozarks). I originally asked for quotes on a 5kW system with at least 15kW in storage since that should be plenty.

It is a one person household so I can control the usage and when things are used. House will be fully insulated and all heat, hot water, cooking etc...is propane (plus a wood stove). I currently use 5kW now and expect the new house to be a little higher (due to a freezer and dish washer) but expect it will average 7-8kW usage per day.

The system size isn't a concern other than the battery size; reliability and a user friendly interface is the main focus. Regardless of the brand the install will be done by a local electrician.

 

[Rocketman]

I like Victron- I full time in my MotorHome and have an all Victron system (except batteries).

I think it is worth the brand premium for tier1 equipment. The information it gives me is great. So if/when I build an off-grid home - that’s what I will go with.

Don’t just accept the plan of the installer - it could be great - it could be so-so. Post the plan here and get a second pair of eyes on it. Too many times on this site I have seen someone have a “professional” installed system and I go ???! Now we don’t hear about all the systems that work great and as they should.

 

[MisterSandals]

asked for quotes on a 5kW system with at least 15kW in storage

I currently use 5kW

expect it will average 7-8kW usage per day.

You will understand what you are asking about better if you know the terms you are using.
You mention a 5kW system, presumably 5kW of solar panels, capable producing power at a 5kW (5000W) rate.

Your batteries should be expressed as capacities, kilowatt hours. As in 15kWh.

The relationship between this solar and battery:

5kW solar x 3 hours = 15kWh (meaning that that amount of solar can charge that size battery in 3 hours, from empty, operating at 100% efficient).

Going forward:

expect it will average 7-8kWh usage per day.

15kWh battery / 7kWh usage per day = 2.14 days stored in battery

 

[S610]

You will understand what you are asking about better if you know the terms you are using.
You mention a 5kW system, presumably 5kW of solar panels, capable producing power at a 5kW (5000W) rate.

Your batteries should be expressed as capacities, kilowatt hours. As in 15kWh.

The relationship between this solar and battery:

5kW solar x 3 hours = 15kWh (meaning that that amount of solar can charge that size battery in 3 hours, from empty, operating at 100% efficient).

Going forward:

15kWh battery / 7kWh usage per day = 2.14 days stored in battery

Here are the quotes I received.

 

[MisterSandals]

Wow, your solar installer doesn't understand battery capacities?

 

[S610]

I like Victron- I full time in my MotorHome and have an all Victron system (except batteries).

I think it is worth the brand premium for tier1 equipment. The information it gives me is great. So if/when I build an off-grid home - that’s what I will go with.

Don’t just accept the plan of the installer - it could be great - it could be so-so. Post the plan here and get a second pair of eyes on it. Too many times on this site I have seen someone have a “professional” installed system and I go ???! Now we don’t hear about all the systems that work great and as they should.

Yeah the installer is a local electrician that will install whatever system I buy.

The Victron quote came from a very nice dealer/installer in Mississippi and he explains things well however he doesn't do installs in Arkansas.

 

[DIYrich]

$13k for the Victron. If you are worried about "single point of failure", but two. It will still be cheaper than Enphase.

Also, Victron is standard stuff if you want to expand later. With Enphase, you are stuck with Enphase.

Also, I think with Enphase on an off-grid setup, there is a single point of failure. Whatever is telling the panels to generate power. Loose that, and the micro-inverters go off-line. In a grid connected scenario, the micros sync to the grid, and thus the "single point of failure" claim. But, when you go past the minimal system, those additional boxes create single points of failure.

 

[S610]

Wow, your solar installer doesn't understand battery capacities?

I added a couple of lines and the Enphase quote also got it wrong. I got your point however 98% of the people reading this know what it means. Do you have any input other than that?

 

[S610]

$13k for the Victron. If you are worried about "single point of failure", but two. It will still be cheaper than Enphase.

Yeah that is what I am thinking. Plus it won't cost that much to upgrade to a 10 year warranty.

 

[Philip53]

Maybe it is just me, but looking at 20 microinverters, over a 20 year span, how many will fail? I have no experience with these, but I damn sure know I would not want to get up on my roof, somehow pull out a panel located in the middle of my array, and change out the microinverter.

My 12 year old Schneider Xw6048 has never had an issue. No question for me.

In any event, look at the long run - 20 yrs plus. Make your purchases wisely, and plan for reliability and accessibility. You'll be glad you did.

 

[SeaGal]

My 2p worth...

I got your point however 98% of the people reading this know what it means

No... 98% of people reading it will make an assumption as to what they think it means. A sales person will possibly intentionally use the wrong units to blindside the buyer.

I _thought_ that Enphase required internet connectivity to monetise your data control your system. Not sure that fits well with an off-grid setup? Also with Enphase you are tying yourself into proprietary batteries which will cost $$$ when you want more (and most people will want more at some stage). Also check out the thread on here somewhere, where recently, it was highlighted that the IQ8+'s could only sustain a max generation of 295W each - the poster's panel output was being clipped severely.

Re Sol-Ark, if I'm correct and that's just a Deye inverter (also sold as Sunsynk in UK/Europe) then they have a good reputation. Not sure what premium you'd be paying for EMP hardening, whatever that means... is it guaranteed Putin proof?

Victron, on the other hand, would be my go to choice for off grid. Long history, especially in hostile marine environments and well respected on here too.

 

[MisterSandals]

Not sure what premium you'd be paying for EMP hardening, whatever that means... is it guaranteed Putin proof?

I guess one would need a similarly EMP hardened refrigerator. I was going to say "and phone" but all telecom equip will be fried along with everybody else's phone.
Just musing.

 

[SeaGal]

This is the thread I mentioned... in particular see the image in the post I linked to that shows max continuous AC output of 290VA for IQ8+

Solved: Limited IQ8+ inverter output - JA Solar panels rated for 395 Watts putting out 250 watts (63% of max rated)

Thanks all for your replies. I'm going to figure out if I try the Enphase inverters rated for higher power or buy the communication gateway (Envoy) or both. Appreciate the help!

diysolarforum.com

 

[sunshine_eggo]

Victron 6kW with 15kW battery (no mount or install) ($13k)
Sol-Ark 5.4kW with 15kW battery, rack mount, emp hardened, and install included ($32k)
Enphase 8kW with 10kW battery, rack mount, and install included ($32k)

This is an off-grid system that will be professionally installed in a new build house. Dependability along with a user friendly hassle-free interface is important. My gut says go with Victron however I do like that Enphase does not have a single point of failure.

Enphase does have a single point of failure. Off-grid, enphase must have a grid supplied for the micro-inverters to tie to. The hardware that provides the "grid" can fail, and the microinverters go offline.

Any strong opinions about this? Is the redundancy of the Enphase system worth going with that brand? Though the Enphase system seems pretty pricey with only 10kW of battery storage.

Assuming the listed systems meet your needs...

Go Smurfy.

 

[zanydroid]

Enphase does have a single point of failure. Off-grid, enphase must have a grid supplied for the micro-inverters to tie to. The hardware that provides the "grid" can fail, and the microinverters go offline.

You can have multiple batteries to diversify the SPOFs on Enphase. However the MID is likely still a SPOF (albeit one with no active power handling equipment, it has CTs, relay, some brains).

I don't think the extra cost in Enphase system is being invested in the right places, if the goal is to increase availability. Better to just, like, install two string inverters.

Arguably the SolArk tax is also not invested in the right place (but probably better than Enphase b/c it's a system targeted more towards off-grid) because there appear to be no need for inspections or interconnection agreement here, so why not just get 4 cheap 6000XP class inverters for the price of one SolArk. They'll probably not all fail at the same time.

Victron has a lot more off-grid users than SolArk does. A lot of them roll on wheels / float. While I question the value-add of Victron in hybrid or heavily inspected situations, off-grid in a place where nobody inspects and needs autonomy makes more sense.

The Victron quote came from a very nice dealer/installer in Mississippi and he explains things well however he doesn't do installs in Arkansas.

What is the game plan for commissioning/debugging/ongoing maintenance of Victron?

In general, what is the game plan for ongoing maintenance across all three?

EMP hardening is nonsense IMO unless somebody tosses a non-economical test at it. Which they won't do, because it costs too much to test.

 

[S610]

My 2p worth...


No... 98% of people reading it will make an assumption as to what they think it means. A sales person will possibly intentionally use the wrong units to blindside the buyer.

I _thought_ that Enphase required internet connectivity to monetise your data control your system. Not sure that fits well with an off-grid setup? Also with Enphase you are tying yourself into proprietary batteries which will cost $$$ when you want more (and most people will want more at some stage). Also check out the thread on here somewhere, where recently, it was highlighted that the IQ8+'s could only sustain a max generation of 295W each - the poster's panel output was being clipped severely.

Re Sol-Ark, if I'm correct and that's just a Deye inverter (also sold as Sunsynk in UK/Europe) then they have a good reputation. Not sure what premium you'd be paying for EMP hardening, whatever that means... is it guaranteed Putin proof?

Victron, on the other hand, would be my go to choice for off grid. Long history, especially in hostile marine environments and well respected on here too.

I believe the new off-grid Enphase system does not require an Internet connection. I did ask the electrician that sells those systems about that and he swore they don't. Also said there is no single point of failure.

As far as Sol-Ark claiming to be EMP hardened, it is a $1500 upgrade and I think it involves a protective housing for the inverter. They also offer hardened panels etc...but EMP is a tricky business and many think most off-grid systems will probably do fairly well especially if surge protectors are installed on long wire runs. I am no expert and I have pretty much lost interest in going the Sol-Ark route.

Since the overall consensus seems to be Victron is the way to go, and that is what I was thinking too, plus the price point is good, I think that settles it.

 

[zanydroid]

I believe the new off-grid Enphase system does not require an Internet connection. I did ask the electrician that sells those systems about that and he swore they don't. Also said there is no single point of failure.

Enphase likely requires internet connection for full warranty. Firmware updates also need to be applied. There were some recent pretty critical ones for some system configs (AC couple into non-Enphase batteries. Not your config).

Regarding the SPOF - I don't see how you can avoid one if you only have one battery. My discussion of the MID is irrelevant since it is off grid, so I withdraw that. Electricians/solar installers/solar salespeople aren't engineers, I don't really trust them to do this kind of analysis unless they're involved in designing some big metal utility or industrial kind of system, not a cabin or house.

Victron does require a ton of wall space b/c they haven't invested in shrinking their equipment. That said, so does the other equipment where people have had decades long operational experience.