Deye: ATS or no need?

[burgerking]

I was about to add ATS to my my Deye installation,

but was informed that Deye comes with a built-in ATS!
Now what? How should I wire my Deye install now?



I;d like to have my whole Home Loads powered even during GRID power outage.
How is that gonna work with this new info about Deye having built-in ATS?

 

[burgerking]

Here is the board where some Relays are shown - I suspect these are used to connect GRID to LOAD?


If that is the case, are they reliable for high current ~50A?

I mean, I was told to junk the ATS and then hook up my Deye similar to an OFF-GRID inverter (like Growatt SPF)
My house will be connected to Deye's LOAD terminal. Electric Service will be connected to GRID terminal.
If there is power, Deye will simply connect GRID to LOAD.
If there is a power failure, Deye will disconnect GRID from LOAD and start Inverting.

Is this even safe?

 

[mrzed001]

Deye has internal relays and they disconnect utility if needed.
Also can do basic peak shaving where grid is flowing though the inverter ... and it is lowered by the amount the PV generates at that moment.
Also a real hybrid inverter and can sell to utility too.

So in most cases you do not need an external ATS. The inverter has its own and faster one

 

[burgerking]

I can do this No problem?

 

[mrzed001]

View attachment 107265
I can do this No problem?

Yes, you can

There is only one exception.
If your utility provider is a d.ck and you want to use this peak shaving function.
A tiny little bit can flow back then. And your utility company can complain.
Also if your utility meter is old then it can register this tiny amount as consumption.

Any other case you are ready to go

 

[RCinFLA]

You don't need an ATS for grid tied hybrid inverter, but it is a good idea to have the ability to easily bypass the inverter if it craps out preventing AC pass through. Your inverter grid pass through is limited to inverter pass through relay amperage rating.

I don't like the 'electric hot water heater' small square relays most of the Chinese inverters are using. Contact switching resistive heater elements is less stressful than a load with inductive power factor like from a motor.

Some Chinese inverters are putting two lower amperage relays in parallel to claim a higher pass-thru amperage. This is poor design as two independent relays will not have exactly the same contact opening and closing instance subjecting one relay contact to greater wear,

 

[burgerking]

Yes, you can

Hmm... I am finding this very difficult to swallow.

OK let me understand how this goes:

GIVEN:
We will be using 8KW Deye unit, Single Phase

GRID, LOAD (all caps) refers to the physical terminals/ports above; it also refers to wires connected to it.
Grid/grid (not all caps) refers to utility company's power.
Load/load (not all caps) or house refers to the whole house and not just a few appliances.
Deye, House, Grid are wired such that House Occupants will have power even during grid outage but without using External ATS.

Now then:
When both Grid and Solar/Battery are available, internal relays (represented in orange) will connect LOAD from GRID.
Deye will generate power to House through the LOAD terminal and will not use Power from Utility as shown below.

In this case, Deye operates similar to a GridTie.
I understand small current can still flow in and out to utility company.

Scenario 1: Morning, Utility Power is available
House occupants started the day regularly doing all kinds of chores: laundry (1KW), vacuum cleaning(2KW), hot shower bath(4KW), baking(3KW), making coffee(1KW), others (2KW). House is now drawing more than that what this Deye is rated. There will be a large amount of current flowing through the internal Relays.

Kinda, not safe dont you think?
This will lead to failure as shown by RCinFLA

But if the Deye inverter wont allow >8KW to pass through the LOAD terminal, then there is no reason to wire up the house this way.
If I have an external ATS and connect Deye as shown below, Deye will never exceed its rated capacity. Even if the occupants use the maximum power (16KW~65A), Deye will not be subjected to such large current flow internally.



Scenario 2: Grid Outage
During a Grid Outage, Deye will disconnect LOAD from GRID and powers the House from Battery.

Occupants understand Utility Power is out and use electricity conservatively.
Around 4AM, Battery runs out of power; Deye shuts down. Whole house is unpowered.
When Grid power resumes, Deye awakens and do the necessary steps to energize the House.
Should Solar becomes available first, Deye will first recharge Battery until Batt > Restart value. Then powers the house from Solar/Battery.
Everything is FINE.

I do understand that during a Grid Outage, Deye only has a limited battery power capacity and Occupants should use electricity conservatively. But when Utility Power is available, Occupants understand that "it is normal power" and will use electricity liberally. Routing this much power through Deye is not healthy for the inverter and will cause parts failure.

You don't need an ATS for grid tied hybrid inverter, but it is a good idea to have the ability to easily bypass the inverter if it craps out preventing AC pass through. Your inverter grid pass through is limited to inverter pass through relay amperage rating.

I agree. So I will stick to using an external ATS.

 

[niktak11]

This is part of the reason that I went with the Sol-ark 15k. 200A pass through.

 

[Zivva]

If load > inverter rating, inverter shuts down. Deye 8k is able to provide twice its rating for 10s. After it just shuts down. Problem solved ...

Your load panel should also be protected by a properly rated MCB to avoid overload (50A max, you can be conservative and install a 40A MCB ...)

If you may need up to 13kw of power, you need an inverter rated to power that load.

Or don't bake and take a hot water shower at the same time :D Or get your water heater starting before people wake-up, won't use 4kw to maintain water temperature ...

I don't really see how an external ATS would be a better / safer option here ?

Deye uses Panasonic relays which are supposed to be good ...

Got my whole business connected to a 8k (all load, don't use backup or smart load connection ...), grid outage once every few days, no ATS, no problem ... but grid supply & load < inverter rating ...

 

[mrzed001]

Hmm... I am finding this very difficult to swallow.

OK let me understand how this goes:

GIVEN:
We will be using 8KW Deye unit, Single Phase
View attachment 107325
GRID, LOAD (all caps) refers to the physical terminals/ports above; it also refers to wires connected to it.
Grid/grid (not all caps) refers to utility company's power.
Load/load (not all caps) or house refers to the whole house and not just a few appliances.
Deye, House, Grid are wired such that House Occupants will have power even during grid outage but without using External ATS.

Now then:
When both Grid and Solar/Battery are available, internal relays (represented in orange) will connect LOAD from GRID.
Deye will generate power to House through the LOAD terminal and will not use Power from Utility as shown below.
View attachment 107341
In this case, Deye operates similar to a GridTie.
I understand small current can still flow in and out to utility company.

Scenario 1: Morning, Utility Power is available
House occupants started the day regularly doing all kinds of chores: laundry (1KW), vacuum cleaning(2KW), hot shower bath(4KW), baking(3KW), making coffee(1KW), others (2KW). House is now drawing more than that what this Deye is rated. There will be a large amount of current flowing through the internal Relays.
View attachment 107354
Kinda, not safe dont you think?
This will lead to failure as shown by RCinFLA
View attachment 107357
But if the Deye inverter wont allow >8KW to pass through the LOAD terminal, then there is no reason to wire up the house this way.
If I have an external ATS and connect Deye as shown below, Deye will never exceed its rated capacity. Even if the occupants use the maximum power (16KW~65A), Deye will not be subjected to such large current flow internally.
View attachment 107365


Scenario 2: Grid Outage
During a Grid Outage, Deye will disconnect LOAD from GRID and powers the House from Battery.
View attachment 107329
Occupants understand Utility Power is out and use electricity conservatively.
Around 4AM, Battery runs out of power; Deye shuts down. Whole house is unpowered.
When Grid power resumes, Deye awakens and do the necessary steps to energize the House.
Should Solar becomes available first, Deye will first recharge Battery until Batt > Restart value. Then powers the house from Solar/Battery.
Everything is FINE.

I do understand that during a Grid Outage, Deye only has a limited battery power capacity and Occupants should use electricity conservatively. But when Utility Power is available, Occupants understand that "it is normal power" and will use electricity liberally. Routing this much power through Deye is not healthy for the inverter and will cause parts failure.


I agree. So I will stick to using an external ATS.

This is from Victron, but it works in the same way in Deye:

Left side is Grid. Right side is Load.

Double relay disconnects grid if needed: blackout, brownout, or only battery mode
Internal PE-N relay. Victron has it. MPP Solar (original) has it.
I am not sure if Deye has it. SunSynk sells an external relay for it.




Here you can se the inner PE-N relay, and the outer PE-N relay (only one is needed)

Also a transfer switch to disconnect inverter from the network and give grid power directly to the house (bypass like when you are making maintenance on the inverter and to have grid power then)

An 8kW inverter usually can transfer (bypass from grid to load) at least 16kW (2 times the inverter kW)

 

[sergea]

If load > inverter rating, inverter shuts down. Deye 8k is able to provide twice its rating for 10s. After it just shuts down. Problem solved ...

Your load panel should also be protected by a properly rated MCB to avoid overload (50A max, you can be conservative and install a 40A MCB ...)

If you may need up to 13kw of power, you need an inverter rated to power that load.

Or don't bake and take a hot water shower at the same time :D Or get your water heater starting before people wake-up, won't use 4kw to maintain water temperature ...

I don't really see how an external ATS would be a better / safer option here ?

Deye uses Panasonic relays which are supposed to be good ...

Got my whole business connected to a 8k (all load, don't use backup or smart load connection ...), grid outage once every few days, no ATS, no problem ... but grid supply & load < inverter rating ...

external ATS is usefull if you want to have power while doing maintenance on the inverter.

 

[burgerking]

If load > inverter rating, inverter shuts down. Deye 8k is able to provide twice its rating for 10s. After it just shuts down. Problem solved ...

TRUE.

Here is the given:

This is becoming a very popular way of wiring Deye locally - wanting to use the small internal relays as ATS.
Likewise, the CT coil is now inside for a really compelling neat install.

What would happen when Utility is available and occupants starts consuming more than 8KW for an extended period of time?
a) Will Deye shuts down due to Overload and leave the occupants wet, hungry, late for work? or
b) Deye will generate 8KW, and let GRID passthrough into LOAD to cover for the excess.
What worries me is this passthrough: The small internal relays surely cannot handle that much current.

If you may need up to 13kw of power, you need an inverter rated to power that load.

And then they would consume more.
Installers would be happy to sell them another Unit in parallel though.

external ATS is usefull if you want to have power while doing maintenance on the inverter.

agree.

Internal PE-N relay. Victron has it. MPP Solar (original) has it.
I am not sure if Deye has it. SunSynk sells an external relay for it.

Not applicable for us here in Philippines.
Both wires are HOT. We do not use Neutral line for power but only for Grounding.
The utility do use Neutral on the Transformers though.

 

[sergea]

Not applicable for us here in Philippines.
Both wires are HOT. We do not use Neutral line for power but only for Grounding.

Can you pls elaborate, I'am not sure to understand the difference for PH and FR for example.

Here with DEYE we have to add an external relay to bond neutral to ground when operating only on battery. when grid is present this relay is open.

The utility do use Neutral on the Transformers though.

 

[burgerking]

Can you pls elaborate, I'am not sure to understand the difference for PH and FR for example.

Utility provides us with 3 wires. One of which is Neutral, zero volts relative to Earth Ground.
The other two lines (I refer as L1 and L2) total 240V relative to each other and both are HOT relative to Earth Ground.

More specifically this is supplied to us:

High-leg delta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is how we wire our Inverter


Same also with Growatt (will post the connector terminal for it later).
The N/Black terminal on this Inverter is actually L1 which is HOT.

Here with DEYE we have to add an external relay to bond neutral to ground when operating only on battery. when grid is present this relay is open.

I think I am getting what you are saying.
When Deye is in Inverter Mode (No Grid), The Red-Blue and Black-Blue wires are NOT connected to GRID.
Likewise, Red-Blue and Black-Blue wires are not referenced to GND.

What you are therefore saying is, these two lines are floating and could be a few thousand volts away from GND because it is not referenced/tied to GND.

 

[sergea]

Utility provides us with 3 wires. One of which is Neutral, zero volts relative to Earth Ground.
The other two lines (I refer as L1 and L2) total 240V relative to each other and both are HOT relative to Earth Ground.

More specifically this is supplied to us:

High-leg delta - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is how we wire our Inverter
View attachment 107530

Same also with Growatt (will post the connector terminal for it later).
The N/Black terminal on this Inverter is actually L1 which is HOT.

I think I am getting what you are saying.
When Deye is in Inverter Mode (No Grid), The Red-Blue and Black-Blue wires are NOT connected to GRID.
Likewise, Red-Blue and Black-Blue wires are not referenced to GND.

What you are therefore saying is, these two lines are floating and could be a few thousand volts away from GND because it is not referenced/tied to GND.

ok, are you living in a place in PH where they are using split phase like in US ? it seems like my friend in cagayan valley is using single phase LINE + NEUTRAL like in EU/FR.

Or did I get it totally wrong ?





Thank

 

[burgerking]

ok, are you living in a place in PH where they are using split phase like in US ? it seems like my friend in cagayan valley is using single phase LINE + NEUTRAL like in EU/FR.

Or did I get it totally wrong ?





Thank

Electrical standard varies from DU to DU.
I am not familiar with Cagayan's electrical service, but I do have heard some DU offers two wires 240-0 (L+N). Two wires is cheaper than 3 wires.

Subic is split phase 120-0-120 like in USA. Manila has split phase but can be 120-0-208 if tapped on the orange line.
However we do not use it as split phase like a 120-0-120 but as straight 240V.

 

[Zivva]

Why not simply using the backup load settings to limit load to essentials (up to inverter rating ...) during a power outage ?

 

[dddem]

I agree. So I will stick to using an external ATS.

Have you used an external ATS for your system in the end? If so, which model, and how did you program it? What is the trigger for switching?

I still do not understand exactly how / when the internal transfer switch of the inverter is triggered so that it goes to bypass mode / returns to normal mode.

 

[burgerking]

Have you used an external ATS for your system in the end? If so, which model, and how did you program it? What is the trigger for switching?

Honestly, my importer got me this wrong ATS:

The internal solenoids are exclusively powered by SourceB.
If SourceB is unpowered, this ATS is dead in the water.

I have since modified this ATS, taken out the electronics and replaced it with a simple Time Delay Relay. (Best to just buy the correct ATS.)

Now the trigger of this ATS is with this table:

SourceA	SourceB	Output
ON	ON	SourceA
ON	OFF	SourceA
OFF	ON	SourceB
OFF	OFF	DEAD

It does not need Deye's ATS signal. Just the absence or presence of SourceA will trigger it.

I still do not understand exactly how / when the internal transfer switch of the inverter is triggered so that it goes to bypass mode / returns to normal mode.

From the various inside photo, I think I am getting what is the circuit inside Deye.

Upon start up, the Load Relay is engaged. (I still need to confirm/verify if there are Load Relays.)
After Reconnection Time has elapsed, Grid Relay is engaged. GRID is now connected to LOAD.
Once Power Outage is detected, the Grid Relay is disengaged. Likewise, the ATS240V signal is energized as well.

When Deye is OFF, all internal relays are OFF; LOAD is unpowered.

Why not simply using the backup load settings to limit load to essentials (up to inverter rating ...) during a power outage ?

This is easier said than done.
Sol-Ark/SunSync claimed their installer were repeatedly called back to add essential items, it was better to just power the whole house and give the occupants the responsibility of limiting their own usage. Then they came up with Smart-Load smart breaker.

 

[dddem]

Honestly, my importer got me this wrong ATS:
View attachment 107650
The internal solenoids are exclusively powered by SourceB.
If SourceB is unpowered, this ATS is dead in the water.

I have since modified this ATS, taken out the electronics and replaced it with a simple Time Delay Relay. (Best to just buy the correct ATS.)
View attachment 107659
Now the trigger of this ATS is with this table:

SourceA	SourceB	Output
ON	ON	SourceA
ON	OFF	SourceA
OFF	ON	SourceB
OFF	OFF	DEAD

It does not need Deye's ATS signal. Just the absence or presence of SourceA will trigger it.


From the various inside photo, I think I am getting what is the circuit inside Deye.
View attachment 107651
Upon start up, the Load Relay is engaged. (I still need to confirm/verify if there are Load Relays.)
After Reconnection Time has elapsed, Grid Relay is engaged. GRID is now connected to LOAD.
Once Power Outage is detected, the Grid Relay is disengaged. Likewise, the ATS240V signal is energized as well.

When Deye is OFF, all internal relays are OFF; LOAD is unpowered.

Don't get it. Is the inverter's internal bypass mode not supposed to be triggered when the inverter is off or when there is a fault or when the battery + PV are unable to supply enough power to the backup load (for example at night and when the battery is empty)?

Are you saying that in normal operation when the grid is up, the backup load is directly connected to the grid? This seems contrary to this schematic:



For example, this is from the MPP Solar manual. This is one of the things I do expect to trigger bypass / line mode. Yet there is no mention of such in the Deye manual...