EG4 Chargeverter and non-inverter Generator Power

[bhbaker220]

I’ve heard a few people say that the EG4 Chargeverter cleans up the dirty power from a non-inverter generator. I thought I remember people saying it’s the same charger that’s in the EG4 AIO’s. I realize that EG4 AIO’s have been fried when the ACin has been from dirty power from a generator. I’m wondering if I can really use a non-inverter generator to charge the batteries via the AIO internal charger as long as I’m not powering any loads at the same time (no chance of bypass). I’m struggling to understand how they are able to clean up the dirty power. Perhaps it’s just keeping the power input from going into bypass and there’s really nothing different about how the Chargeverter operates vs the chargers in the AIO inverters. Does anyone really know the answer here?

 

[DIYrich]

Generally AIO will pass power from the generator directly to load. That is dirty power.

I'm guessing the part of the AIO that makes a Chargeverter is the AC to DC converter.

The Chargeverter cleans up AC power by converting it to DC (with some conversion losses). The inverter then inverts the battery power to AC (with more conversion losses).

Since only inverter power is the only power that reaches load, it is clean.

 

[zanydroid]

There is minimal programming / configuration required on the Chargeverter compared to an AIO. There are also fewer options to hang yourself, since it has fewer outputs you can mess up and blow stuff up with.

I think with your proposal you can get pretty close. Except you will have to disable the inverter (if possible) to avoid messing up your loads (with appropriate programming or external mechanical interlocks, maybe) and avoid paying the inverter standby cost in power.

The Chargeverter also adds an AC to DC converter that you can mix into the power topology. This can be used for a measure of grid assist for systems that don't allow blending of Solar or Battery with utility power (IE, because the charger and inverter share hardware, so solve it with adding a charger so the shared charger/inverter transistors can stay in inverter mode) or to allow AC coupling with frequency-shift control when running on generator power.

 

[timselectric]

The Chargeverter doesn't clean up the generator power. It just doesn't have a problem using it to charge the batteries.

 

[bhbaker220]

That’s what I suspected. Seems like the manufacturer could alter the software in the AIO to only allow the ACin (generator power) to charge the batteries and/or allow pass through of converted DC power (as well as solar and batteries) to power the loads, and not allow bypass of ACin power directly to the loads via AC. However, it does add more complexity to the operation and adds more conversion losses. Plus you could not sell a new $400 device.

 

[Quattrohead]

And dirty power isn't quite what you're thinking, it isn't some nasty waveform with spikes and dips and glitches all over the place necessarily, more often than not it is just not near the tight 50/60 hz that the inverter is looking for therefore it will not connect to it because it thinks it's out of range. I don't know that anyone's AIO got killed by a dirty generator but more likely wrong wiring.

 

[bhbaker220]

Are you saying people wired hot on neutral on ACin?

 

[DIYrich]

That’s what I suspected. Seems like the manufacturer could alter the software in the AIO to only allow the ACin (generator power) to charge the batteries and/or allow pass through of converted DC power (as well as solar and batteries) to power the loads, and not allow bypass of ACin power directly to the loads via AC. However, it does add more complexity to the operation and adds more conversion losses. Plus you could not sell a new $400 device.

Not just software is needed. There is ONE inverter that can convert AC->DC to charge batteries OR convert DC->AC to power loads. It can't do both at the same time. Unless you had two separate inverters. It would also introduce conversion losses (double conversion of AC->DC->AC).

Most people are ok with the "noise" (direct passthrough of AC). The few people who are not, get a Chargeverter.

 

[Quattrohead]

Are you saying people wired hot on neutral on ACin?

I am not going to speculate on how clever people are at being dumb lol

 

[Vigo]

Not just software is needed. There is ONE inverter that can convert AC->DC to charge batteries OR convert DC->AC to power loads. It can't do both at the same time. Unless you had two separate inverters. It would also introduce conversion losses (double conversion of AC->DC->AC).

There are some inverters that can do both, but you have to specifically shop for that and most people don't even know it's an issue, let alone what to be looking for. But they are out there!

I think the biggest thing about 'direct passthrough of AC' is that it requires you to have a pretty large generator in a lot of cases. Having your generator simply charge batteries and still have the inverter pulling from the batteries (aka double conversion) means you can still pull more power than your generator is capable of giving, or change loads faster than the generator can adapt, and it still works fine. You would just be draining the batteries faster than you're charging them during those times. But on AC passthrough/bypass the generator itself has to not only be able to supply 100% of the load, it also has to be able to absorb the transient loads of say motor starts.

 

[zanydroid]

Not just software is needed. There is ONE inverter that can convert AC->DC to charge batteries OR convert DC->AC to power loads. It can't do both at the same time. Unless you had two separate inverters. It would also introduce conversion losses (double conversion of AC->DC->AC).

Akshually it's only an inverter in the DC->AC direction.

In the AC->DC direction some/all of the inverter transistors would be repurposed to realize the ideal rectifier & SMPS needed for charging or clubbing into a DC bus shared with the SCC. Which isn't an inverter.

I don't think it's obligatory either to have double conversion losses. It depends on the topology. EG, you could have an AC charger independent of an inverter that is configured to parallel with grid (with or without grid assist capability, which I believe is a function of how advanced the inverter's PSW control loop is).

 

[DIYrich]

There are some inverters that can do both, but you have to specifically shop for that and most people don't even know it's an issue, let alone what to be looking for. But they are out there!

I think the biggest thing about 'direct passthrough of AC' is that it requires you to have a pretty large generator in a lot of cases. Having your generator simply charge batteries and still have the inverter pulling from the batteries (aka double conversion) means you can still pull more power than your generator is capable of giving, or change loads faster than the generator can adapt, and it still works fine. You would just be draining the batteries faster than you're charging them during those times. But on AC passthrough/bypass the generator itself has to not only be able to supply 100% of the load, it also has to be able to absorb the transient loads of say motor starts.

There are Passthrough that bypass the Inverter, and Passthrough that work with the inverter.

Sol-Ark is an AIO that can passthrough whatever you specify, and supplement with battery on top of that. When load is under the specified amount, it can charge the battery with the excess.

What double conversion inverters are out there? It would be easy enough to make a double conversion system from components (battery charger, AC inverter).

 

[zanydroid]

Victron is another, and as a LF design (no DC DC boost stage, instead using a honking big 60hz transformer) vs SolArk HF design I believe it is more flexible with simultaneous charging and inverting.

My understanding is that unless the DC DC boost stage is bidirectional there will be limits on simultaneous operation (IE switching back and forth between charger vs inverter mode). Obviously the honking LF transformer is bidirectional.

Reference on topology differences:

Post in thread '24V for vehicle specific systems (cheaper/more efficient(?), but how much)'
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/2...r-more-efficient-but-how-much.2482/post-47858

 

[Vigo]

Victron is the only other one i specifically know about. There are probably others among the newer large AIOs but i haven't researched it specifically. For me, achieving it with separate components was easier and cheaper.

Before the 'chargeverter' became available i built something similar by just paralleling 6x 600w ~48v PSUs. That cost <$200 but it is MUCH less elegant and adjustable than the chargeverter. It was just what i slowly pieced together one $30 psu at a time, before Chargeverter became available!

If i was starting over right now i would buy a chargeverter if not for the fact that for $100 more bucks you can get a whole 'nother (cheap w/ questionable or no support) 5kw AIO inverter and JUST use it as a charger.. but also have another inverter and solar controller if you needed them (maybe just as backup/contingencies). But the Chargeverter is such a simple self-contained thing that it's gonna be the best option for most people trying to do this double conversion thing, plus it has USA-based customer support.