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Enphase Backup Storage - DIY Self-Installer Hurdles

I actually wrote a post on Reddit last week to try to get people excited about accounting for this in their overpaneling calculations (since VV takes away from AC out).

Nobody read it despite how excitable people often are at avoiding clipping.
 
I just read it and I'm wrong on LVRT. LVRT and HVRT require the inverter to stay online. VV causes it to heat up, like engaging the brakes.
Could also activate diversion load to switch production over to consumption.
 
Yes it would be really bad if the grid had a ton of grid tie inverters supplying 50% of the power, only to suffer a hiccup that would cause the old school inverters to panic and curtail their output.
 
And to be clear to anyone following along, the reactive power assistance in VV isn’t dissipating 100% of the VA being diverted to this task, it’s probably closer to 100%-inverter_efficiency (3%?) Though instead of your inverters generating power and $$$ for this thermal stress you are donating grid support.

EDIT: I guess just think of it as the PV equivalent of a "sidewalk snow shovel mandate"
 
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Could also activate diversion load to switch production over to consumption.

Instead of doing Volt/Watt? I'm not sure that would work for a single generator (that happens to also have diversion loads) because the grid is already overvoltage. Turning on a diversion load may not pull down much the voltage that the microinverters see.

On a system wide basis turning on diversion loads might work.
 
You really know the issues! VV would be better called VvAr or VW like you said. Non-Intrusive passive grid control needs to be replaced with intrusive active control, especially if we get more DER micro-generators and EV's. It's coming with UL1741SB and controls like
IEEE 1815 DNP3
IEEE 2030.5
SunSpec Modbus
 
Are those the ones that require internet control protocols and authentication?

That is both exciting to me (to have the knobs available to really make DER smart, 1741SA “smart inverter” is such a meme name for just adding tunable basic control functions), and scary to expose.
 
Yes! Very exciting. And secure communications.

Cautiously hopeful that the use of proprietary and closed protocols will soon come to end!
But it all depends who is in control of authentication and who has authority to create the logins!

IQ gateway: you need a token assigned by Enphase to access the built-in webinterface.
Schneider InsightHome: you can access the web-server as and admin or a guest, but no advanced authentication.

https://sunspec.org/certification/
Look at the manufacturers on that list and the standards they support and who is certified with specific products.

Enphase supports IEEE 2030.5 for Hawaii and California and is working on implementing SunSpec ModBus.
There is a new IQ gateway supporting IEEE 2030.5 with new firmware, but Enphase has promised to upgrade existing IQ gateways with the new firmware later.
 
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Our installer completed installation of IQ8+ pv system with combiner box 4 (not 4c) just last week. so i can confirm cell modem was not needed. if using IQ8+ it requires combiner box 4/4c it does not work with old combiner box 3.

its a grid tied system
Now i am looking for suggestions on off grid solution during the power outage. does connecting the generator to main panel with interlock kit help trick the enphase IQ8+ to produce power during sunlight. am i missing something?

my long term plan is to have batteries backup with inverter. still doing research on compatible system. dont want to spend more on Enphase anymore

appreciate your response and suggestions.
 
does connecting the generator to main panel with interlock kit help trick the enphase IQ8+ to produce power during sunlight. am i missing something?
Probably not. The IQ8 production needs to be balanced against consumption, otherwise it will spike in voltage and shut down. There is some discussion on using mechanical throttle to burn some of the output but I don’t know if anyone has designed this. You need to know some power engineering and electrical engineering knowledge.

IQ8 seem to have a mixed record with AC coupling to third party batteries. Plenty of threads complaining on this.
 
Probably not.
My guess is most likely not because most generators cannot produce a clean enough signal to "trick" a GT inverter. Even if it did for a moment, there is not the infinite load that the grid presents so voltage will rise quickly and the micros will shut down like they are programmed to do. Hopefully that happens before something is damaged.
 
Our installer completed installation of IQ8+ pv system with combiner box 4 (not 4c) just last week. so i can confirm cell modem was not needed. if using IQ8+ it requires combiner box 4/4c it does not work with old combiner box 3.

its a grid tied system
Now i am looking for suggestions on off grid solution during the power outage. does connecting the generator to main panel with interlock kit help trick the enphase IQ8+ to produce power during sunlight. am i missing something?

my long term plan is to have batteries backup with inverter. still doing research on compatible system. dont want to spend more on Enphase anymore

appreciate your response and suggestions.

A generator must be inverter-based otherwise the micro-grid is not stable enough for any AC coupling.
Backfeeding power into the generator will most likely damage or kill the inverter board or set it on fire and is not permitted in many jurisdictions.
I am not up-to-date with inverter-based generators and which ones can tolerate backfeed.

Most battery backup solutions I am familiar with shut down PV production when the generator is running.
Another option is to use a battery backup system and utilize the generator to charge the backup batteries.
 
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Our installer completed installation of IQ8+ pv system with combiner box 4 (not 4c) just last week. so i can confirm cell modem was not needed. if using IQ8+ it requires combiner box 4/4c it does not work with old combiner box 3.
An IQ combiner panel is not required, but a non-Enphase AC combiner panel must be able to mechanically lock down the feedback PV breakers.

IQ Combiner Panel Differences

Here is an interesting option that gives you both: DIN breaker panel with an integrated LoTo switch!

AC Combiner with LoTo

However, it is limited to 3 AC strings. Wish MidniteSolar would make a similar one for 4 AC strings.
 
which ones can tolerate backfeed
To tolerate backfeed, the generator would have to be able to ramp down very quickly. More importantly there would have to be some way to use frequency/Watts or voltage to modulate the micros. AC coupling is not plug and play unless the grid forming inverter (generator) can use UL1741SA specs to modulate micros. Another requirement is some fom of buffer like a battery.
 
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Thank you all for your response. i read some of the posts on the is forum and it makes sense now. Back up power during the outage is not a must have necessary for me, but i am more intrested what other solutions exits if i need one instead of adding other enphase components.

I recently moved to California recently and with PG&E's service reputation and the fire season starting soon looking to have something in-place as plan B to run the essentials.

Generators will be banned in California so i will switch to battery backup. i came across EG4 inverter has UL1741 rating. searched youtube but did not find any solid reviews on AC coupling with IQ8's. couple people have tried with solark which is very expensive to even give it a try.

worst case i will have EG4 inverters and batteries with out PV.
 
I recently moved to California recently and with PG&E's service reputation and the fire season starting soon looking to have something in-place as plan B to run the essentials.
Welcome to California and to some of the country's highest rates other than Hawaii. I recently found out that the new fire zone maps may mean that I could access Self Generation Incentive Funds to pay for a battery backup. A battery is the best way to use solar to arbitrage the high rates in California.
 
Generators will be banned in California so i will switch to battery backup.
It’s not for a few years (2026), LPG is exempt and some other fuels too currently, and you can keep using existing ones.

I just bought my first gas gen this weekend, just in time for the widespread outages today.
 
i came across EG4 inverter has UL1741 rating.
The exact words are important to know if any inverter can be permitted or interconnected. The term "rating" is not the same as "listed" . The best confirmation is to actually see a specific model number on the CEC list of approved inverters. CEC is California Energy Commission.
 
Generators will be banned in California so i will switch to battery backup. i came across EG4 inverter has UL1741 rating. searched youtube but did not find any solid reviews on AC coupling with IQ8's. couple people have tried with solark which is very expensive to even give it a try.

worst case i will have EG4 inverters and batteries with out PV.
EG4 has only 1 grid-tied UL1741SA hybrid inverter. This inverter cannot AC couple in a micro grid! UL1741 SA means that the inverter can be grid-tied and that it is able to "follow" what the utility generator requires, but the inverse/mirror or ying for yang is not possible. In the micro-grid case, the inverter takes on the role as the main generator and must provide similar UL1741 SA functionality as the grid generator. The EG4 hybrid inverter cannot do this. The EG grid-tie hybrid inverter has a 48V backup battery, but requires a high voltage DC PV string to charge the batteries in off-grid mode. If you have room for a small additional PV array, it could be an option. Caution: you need to disconnect the PV feedback if operating in backup mode!

Depending on your needs, the lowest cost solution is an off-grid inverter with a battery bank, setup as a generator look-alike and feeding into a generator equivalent inlet. You need a generator breaker with a UL listed mechanical interlock on the main breaker panel, if allowed by your local jurisdiction. If you use an inlet and a generator plug, then the backup system does not need a building permit, but please check with your local authority. But once you drain your batteries you need power to recharge them and you cannot get it from all the IQ8's you have!

There is pressure building on Enphase to get IQ8 AC coupling to work! The more it gets publicized that it doesn't work and that prior working IQ7 AC coupling may not work anymore, the more pressure there is to get Enphase to fix it. My suggestion: wait for it and don't rush to buy an expensive Enphase backup solution!

If you cannot wait or postpone the implementation, then look at FranklinWH. Put IQ8 compatibility in writing and be ready to spend 10k and more.
Enphase will come out with a better ESS battery, 4kW inverter and 5kWh energy and hard-wired interconnection later this year, but all the other overhead like load panels will drive up cost. And the thermoplastic enclosures are not the best choice for a wild-fire prone area, they melt at 320 degree! If located outside, you are much better off with all-metal panels!
 
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how does an AC coupling capable inverter detect when to start throttling by frequency shifting ? grid-tie AC voltage rise ?
 
how does an AC coupling capable inverter detect when to start throttling by frequency shifting ? grid-tie AC voltage rise ?

Frequency shift is the input. Look up Frequency/watt control function in 1741SA. So the grid forming inverter, when it has no place to put the power anymore, will shift the frequency up.

As frequency goes up the inverters will curtail their watt output.

Obviously this means you can only curtail when off-grid, and with the grid forming inverter as the master of the AC waveform. No generator unless fed in through a chargeverter or something
 
Frequency shift is the input. Look up Frequency/watt control function in 1741SA. So the grid forming inverter, when it has no place to put the power anymore, will shift the frequency up.

As frequency goes up the inverters will curtail their watt output.

Obviously this means you can only curtail when off-grid, and with the grid forming inverter as the master of the AC waveform. No generator unless fed in through a chargeverter or something
that's from the micro-inverter 1741SA view, I was wondering the triggerring side, that drives the frequency shift
 
that's from the micro-inverter 1741SA view, I was wondering the triggerring side, that drives the frequency shift

I edited to discuss the grid forming part of the equation.

It has CTs and SoC info about the battery and can take inputs like that into account. Basically it just needs to do accounting on the power balance of the system. The only knobs it has to deal with that are storage inverter, charging, and curtailing signal to the other inverters.

Which part do you want clarification on?
 
It has CTs and SoC info about the battery and can take inputs like that into account. Basically it just needs to do accounting on the power balance of the system. The only knobs it has to deal with that are storage inverter, charging, and curtailing signal to the other inverters.

Which part do you want clarification on?
am trying to figure what drives/triggers the curtailing ? how does the battery-powered-inverter determined when to start curtailing.
 

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