Grid tie micro-inverters WITHOUT power company inspection/approval

[theoldwizard1]

Okay, okay, okay ! Yes, I would be "breaking the law" but ...

For many years MI did "net metering" (if I understand that term correctly). Some people even occasionally got negative monthly bills ! Obviously this did not sit well with the POCOs !

A few years back, after much complaining to the Public Service Commission, all of this changed. First, you have to "submit your plan" for their review (of course there is a fee for this). Nothing significantly different that what had been "good practice" (externally available, label solar power disconnect, certified equipment, etc.). Now the "buy back" rate is much less. Plus, with digital meters, they won't "spin backwards" and they will likely be able to detect/block when you are send power back to the grid.

My goal is not to make money, but to offset costs of high load appliances like a water heater or A/C !

So, if I have an unapproved micro-inverter installation besides blocking any power from going back to the grid, do you think they would shut off my service ?

 

[AntronX]

You will need grid tie inverter with export limiter. But then you will not capture all available solar without battery. You better off with off-grid system to power your low power constant on loads. If you have tank water heater you can run 240v element direct from 50V battery but at 200 watts or replace it with 48V heater element. You will need to switch the heater via solid state relay because DC will burn up heater's thermostat.

 

[hwy17]

There is no way for them to block exports except by disconnecting completely.

The path you are on is how a lot of us ended up with batteries.

 

[Supervstech]

No, you wont get any advantages to speak of without an agreement.

You will produce energy, and as long as it doesnt produce more than you are using, your bill will go down, but IF you produce more than you are using at the moment of production your meter will CHARGE you full rate for any energy fed into the grid.

 

[AntronX]

If you are careful not to export significant amount I think you will be ok. I backfed 488 kWh worth of energy into my house wiring with only 1.5 kWh exported to grid by mistake. I used Enphase micro inverters fed from my 44V battery but I bricked 3 of them making this exercise cost me more than grid power I saved.

 

[hwy17]

your meter will CHARGE you full rate for any energy fed into the grid.

I still have never seen this one settled. It's often claimed and I can understand some mechanisms by which it could happen. But a suspicious lack of verified and demonstrated occurences across all of the internet. Only ever a claim. The image below I found in trying to research the theory of it. And I'm still not exactly sure if a Form 2S reads positive bidirectionally. It looks like it could, but then how do solar Form 2S meters work? Are they not really 2S? My mind is unsettled.
.

 

[Supervstech]

The digital smart meters read amperage across the device and charge for it. They are agnostic about direction, and some actually tag it causing an energy inspection.

 

[Dagoth Ur Does Solar]

I had seen in other threads people saying most, if not all, "zero export" AIO inverters still often backfeed at least a small amount.

Personally not sure I'd want open myself up to liability for fines/lawsuits trying to covertly run an unapproved grid-tie system with no batteries.

 

[timselectric]

The old analog meters with the metal disc spinning inside a glass enclosure. Did not know if the energy was coming or going. So any energy in either direction would increase the bill.
The knew digital meters are bidirectional. And can tell which way the current is flowing. And trigger an audit, if no agreement exists.

 

[AntronX]

I visually verified my electronic wireless meter reads exported power as consumption.

 

[AntronX]

The knew digital meters are bidirectional. And can tell which way the current is flowing. And trigger an audit, if no agreement exists.

Then why do they swap the meter to "bidirectional" one for grid-tie solar customers if original smart meter can read power direction?

 

[timselectric]

I visually verified my smart meter reads exported power as consumption.

that's one of the dumbest smart meters ever made. lol

 

[AntronX]

that's one of the dumbest smart meters ever made. lol

I edited to call it electronic meter but that makes sense so that people would not flip it upside down to run it backwards.

 

[timselectric]

Then why do they swap the meter to "bidirectional" one for grid-tie solar customers if original smart meter can read power direction?

I'm guessing that there was a generation of not smart digital meters. Between the analog and smart meters.

 

[timselectric]

I edited to call it electronic meter but that makes sense so that people would not flip it upside down to run it backwards.

Flipping the meter to run it backwards was a myth.
Until the actual bidirectional smart meters were introduced.

 

[hwy17]

The old analog meters with the metal disc spinning inside a glass enclosure. Did not know if the energy was coming or going.

When I worked with a utility the meter readers says they caught one guy flipping his analog meter during the month. But I don't remember if they were saying that this was getting it to spin backwards or read no consumption, but the story was not that it wasn't benefiting the guy at all.

 

[timselectric]

When I worked with a utility the meter readers says they caught one guy flipping his analog meter during the month. But I don't remember if they were saying that this was getting it to spin backwards or read no consumption, but the story was not that it wasn't benefiting the guy at all.

It wouldn't benefit him. The old meters worked similar to a non directional CT or a clamp on amp meter. They just measure current flowing. No matter which direction.
This is why the old grid-tied systems required two meters. It was the only way to know what came or went.

 

[AntronX]

I got GE I-210+ utility power meter. In the brochure it says:

Tamper-resistant design minimizes theft-of service. Programmable to register
energy when meter inverted.

It definitely registers exported power as imported. I verified it by exporting 100 watts (observed in my Emporia Vue2) and it displayed 100w in the same spot on the screen where it normally shows instantaneous power. I am not on NEM agreement.

 

[timselectric]

I got GE I-210+ utility power meter. In the brochure it says:

It definitely registers exported power as imported. I verified it by exporting 100 watts (observed in my Emporia Vue2) and it displayed 100w in the same spot on the screen where it normally shows instantaneous power. I am not on NEM agreement.

Yup
That's not a bidirectional meter. It just measures current flow in either direction. And adds it all together.

 

[zanydroid]

The smart meters can be programmed to roll up in different ways.

Also some smart meters are just not compatible with net metering. They swapped mine out before I went PTO.

Even within smart meters with bidirectional measurement they can vary in sampling rate and whether they measure each leg separately.