Grid tie micro-inverters WITHOUT power company inspection/approval

[timselectric]

Sure, that’s the classic approach

Problem is it’s not super compatible with inverter systems, I think the contactor is buried pretty deep, and they have many power levels. Mine has 50W for blower and 1kW for minimum cooling/heating stage. So if I were to set this up I would configure a current trip threshold at say 1A, and a combination of grid tie inverter of 900W output.

The contactor is easy to get to on most. But I don't like the idea of dedicating panels to a single appliance. (Wasted available production when it's not running)

 

[zanydroid]

The contactor is easy to get to on most. But I don't like the idea of dedicating panels to a single appliance. (Wasted available production when it's not running)

The selling point IMO is low cost to entry and low complexity. You don’t need a soft start, or a battery capable of carrying an AC load; and you can install as little as one used microinverter and panel.

If you’ve already paid the price of entry for a full setup, then it’s pointless

 

[hwy17]

What was so bad about schneider’s logic that you were willing to pay an extra 10% efficiency penalty?

The fact that it can't dynamically move between charging and discharging based on the load amps. I have a 20 amp input and 30 amp output now and plan to go to a 60 amp output. I was hoping the schneider could 24/7 shave the input draw to 15 even during a charge cycle.

Now I could suck it up and run a 60 amp input, like I'm supposed to, but when I look at my experiences with the cryptic interface, and the users running node red to get it to do what they want, and all the threads about which exactly volt setting unlocks a feature or whatever, I'm happier to be moving on from it.

Truly seamless outage response will be another benefit of double conversion I am looking forward to. Still building though so can't report that it's actually working for me yet.

 

[zanydroid]

I’m not sure that many hybrids set up with a 20A breaker but 60A pass through will be able to do what you want in the absence of a max grid/generator source current. If you spike to 50-60A on a 20A it might already be pushing it into fast magnetic trip territory. HVAC with this spiking possibility is allowed to be placed on an upsized OCPD

Now 20a in and 30a out seems like it should not have nuisance trips on the 20A

I think Victron claims to enforce an input current limit.

Truly seamless outage response will be another benefit of double conversion I am looking forward to. Still building though so can't report that it's actually working for me yet.

What do you mean by seamless output response?

 

[hwy17]

Agreed on all of that, and going to double conversion eliminates all that concern. Supply could still run short if continuous load exceeds the input, but I'm not that worried about that.

Seamless outage response as in if it's Charger > Battery > Inverter > Load then when the grid charger goes down the load experiences zero disruption. Not a blip.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You will need grid tie inverter with export limiter. But then you will not capture all available solar without battery. You better off with off-grid system to power your low power constant on loads.

The path you are on is how a lot of us ended up with batteries.

The "constant" loads are so small, it is not worth the cost of the batteries.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I used Enphase micro inverters fed from my 44V battery but I bricked 3 of them ...

Care to report how that happened ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Why not just buy my Outback Radian inverter listed on this site, set to DO NOT SELL and just AC couple your micro inverters and you are all set!

Because I am trying to do this WITHOUT spending and arm and a leg and having a 10+ year pay back !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Double conversion with Charger > Battery > Inverter guarantees zero export.

That's what I landed on, not out of paranoia about milliseconds of export but out of dissatisfaction with Schneider's logic. And the true zero export is a nice bonus.

Yes and $$$ !!!!

 

[theoldwizard1]

Yes
The easiest way is to connect the micro inverters to the load side of the contactor in a central air outside unit. This way they are only connected when it's running. Then, you should never worry about exporting.

Never thought of this !

 

[hwy17]

The "constant" loads are so small, it is not worth the cost of the batteries.

That's what a lot of us thought until we explored the reality of trying to zero out grid tied production.

But the A/C contactor idea in this thread is a very interesting and viable one if you have a contactor A/C unit.

 

[glandpuck]

Stay away from grid tie inverters unless they can be setup for zero-export or you already have a bidirectional meter and buyback scheme in place.

Otherwise you are just painting a target on your back.

You know nothing about Outback Radian inverters so your global message of "stay away from grid tie inverters is inaccurate". Please correct yourself to "stay away from some makes and models of grid tie inverters".

Outback Radians have very specific voltage and frequency settings that prevent selling. In fact, there are several steps required to enable the inverter to output to the grid tied port.

 

[hwy17]

You know nothing about Outback Radian inverters so your global message of "stay away from grid tie inverters is inaccurate". Please correct yourself to "stay away from some makes and models of grid tie inverters".

Outback Radians have very specific voltage and frequency settings that prevent selling. In fact, there are several steps required to enable the inverter to output to the grid tied port.

By convention here we say grid tie inverters to mean only AC inverters without battery capability. Radian would be called a hybrid.

Not defending the convention, it's a bit like how we say LFP is not Li-Ion, which is also technically incorrect.

And no hybrid is immune from incidental exporting. When a large load clicks off even a radian will sell momentarily until it can react.

 

[glandpuck]

Well I have 2 SMA grid tie inverters. I have a Radian. Both are grid tie inverters. The SMA are grid TIED only while the Radian has approximately 7 different modes of programmable operation long before the word use "hybrid" was coined to apply to copycat models from overseas.

Therefore, one can only conclude that this adopted convention on this forum is misleading.

 

[hwy17]

Schneider was using hybrid before the overseas hybrids were conceived. Outback not so much. Grid interactive was another term.

By trying to settle a debate about this terminology is like trying to nail down honey, it's all mush anyway.

 

[zanydroid]

Not mentioned yet but one can also consider GTIL without batteries.

They can both have momentary export as well as need calibration to avoid export.

And the kind enthusiast most regularly used are not UL listed.

 

[pollenface]

You know nothing about Outback Radian inverters so your global message of "stay away from grid tie inverters is inaccurate". Please correct yourself to "stay away from some makes and models of grid tie inverters".

Outback Radians have very specific voltage and frequency settings that prevent selling. In fact, there are several steps required to enable the inverter to output to the grid tied port.

I know nothing about Outback Radian inverters.

stay away from some makes and models of grid tie inverters.