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Hard - Spot the mistake

Lonemi

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There is a mistake between one of these tre components, they are all compatible, but somehow they cannot work together, can you find the problem ?

First of all we have two PSU, 24V 150W 6.3A each, connected in series for a total of 48V.

PSUs are then connected to a 30A PWM solar charge controller (specs are in the pictures) which works as a charger for a 24V LiFePO4 battery pack.

The SCC is then connected to a Daly 8s 80A BMS (settings in pictures).

The problem is that the SCC or the BMS does not allow charging; I suppose the SCC is the reason since it stops blinking when the PSU starts making working sounds.

In either cases, another clue, is that if added a 100W resistance in series before SCC, everything works ?

Can you spot the mistake ?
 

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1. Do you mean a 100 ohm resistor or a say 5 ohm, 100W resistor?
2. Your AC plug to your power supplies scares me.
3. When the PWM is connected to the battery and nothing else, does it turn on?
 
1) Do those two power supplies have Negative output connected to the chassis or to the AC safety ground? You can easily verify that by using the DC meter between the Positive output terminal and the chassis to see if it will show 24Vdc or not. If they are connected to the chassis then you cannot have two chassis touching each other when you wire the power supplies in series like that.

2) I do not see the resistor in the picture to understand how the resistor is connected to.
 
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1) Do those two power supplies have Negative output connected to the chassis or to the AC safety ground? You can easily verify that by using the DC meter between the Positive output terminal and the chassis to see if it will show 24Vdc or not.

2) I do not see the resistor in the picture to understand how the resistor is connected to.
The "resistor" appears to be a solid state relay in the 4th picture. Confused me as well.
 
30A Eco worthy
Max.PV Open-Circuit Voltage: <50V

What voltage do your PSUs in series output?
If it exceeds (or has exceeded) 50V, it may shut down (or has been damaged).

This one?
 
This is the resistor and it is a 100W 15OhmJ wired directly on the positive cable out of the PSU.
No, the solid state relay is no resistor, it has been added to avoid to burn the SCC if the BMS shuts off for whatever reason.
The two PSUs have a combined voltage of 48V and tested as 47.8V; no the chassis is not the negative, it gives me no voltage.
 
This is the resistor and it is a 100W 15OhmJ wired directly on the positive cable out of the PSU.
No, the solid state relay is no resistor, it has been added to avoid to burn the SCC if the BMS shuts off for whatever reason.
The two PSUs have a combined voltage of 48V and tested as 47.8V; no the chassis is not the negative, it gives me no voltage.
It seems to me that your voltage is still too high for the SCC to accept. Putting the resistor in series further drops the voltage to the acceptable range for the controller. Did you measure the voltage drop across the resistor when in series and then the voltage on the input terminals to see what you get? Most electronics have a 5-10% range on their rated working voltages. If yours is 50V, it could be as low as 45V.

Thank you for the pic of the resistor. I wasn't understanding how a relay had a resistance. I haven't had the chance to play with solid state ones yet.
 
I also like to know what the Vdrops on the resistor and what the charging current is, I bet it will be really low.
48V with 15 Ohms resistor inline, the max short circuit current is 3.2A.
You are feeding the PWM SCC with power supply that is rated at 6.3A, PWM is basically a current control, the switch MOSFET will be fully on in bulk charging so the battery will try to bring the power supply Voltage down close to the battery Voltage and it will draw lots of current, so no way your power supplies can provide more than 6.3A. You need power supply that has higher Voltage, I.E. 5V higher than the battery Voltage to charge and higher current rating since we are dealing with PWM Charge controller, not MPPT that converts high Voltage low current to battery charging Voltage and higher current.
The 15 Ohms resistor you out inline with the output of the power supply will limit the charging current so the power supply will not go into over current shut down mode due to the battery is trying to draw so much current from power supply.
To get max 30A charging current from PWM, your power supply has to be able to deliver at least 30A without going into shutdown, it will be the type that goes into CC mode when the current is being drawn at higher than the rating, the power supplies you are using probably has just over current shut off protection which is typical, the one that goes into CC mode is more expensive.
Learn about power supply:

Q69

What are the protection forms of overload/overcurrent?​

Ans:
When current drawn exceeds the rating of the PSU, the protection circuit will be triggered to protect the unit against overload/overcurrent.
Protections of overload/overcurrent can be divided into several forms:
(1)FOLDBACK CURRENT LIMITING
Output current decreases about 20% of rated current, shown as curve (a) in the figure below.

(2)CONSTANT CURRENT LIMITING
Output current remains at a constant level and within the specified range while the output voltage drops to a lower level, shown as curve (b) in the figure below.

(3)OVER POWER LIMITING
Output power remains constant. As output load increases, output voltage decreases in proportion, shown as curve (c) in the figure below.

(4)HICCUP CURRENT LIMITING
Output voltage and current keep pulsing ON and OFF repeatedly when protection is activated. The unit automatically recovers when faulty condition is removed.

(5)SHUT OFF
Output voltage and current are cut off when output load reaches protection range.
NOTE: Protection mode of some of the products combines with different types of the forms mentioned, such as constant current limiting + shut down.

1673728011290.png

Recover method:
(1)Auto Recovery: PSU recovers automatically after faulty condition is removed.
(2)Re-power on: PSU restarts by manual AC re-power on after faulty condition is removed.
Note:Please do not operate PSU in overcurrent or short-circuit condition for a long period of time to prevent a shorten lifespan or damaging the PSU.
 
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Can those 24v power supplies be put in series? They may have over-voltage protection on the output which is tripping once the current gets high enough.
 
I would expect you to have to add that series resistor into a PWM SCC to charge a 24V battery from a 48V source.

That buffer resistance is needed. I would also expect an MPPT SCC to work better from a power supply with an input limiting resistor.

boB
 
First of all I would like to thank you for the support.
I took my time to receive other components and test them in order to give you a more specific answers to my problem.

Just for completeness I will rewrite here my specs : Battery 24V LiFePO4, SCC PWM 30A.

These are the test I made, with relative pictures:

2x series 150W 24V PSU (48V, 300W total)
PSUs goes into Hiccup mode and keeps restarting, output = 0A
If added a 100W Resistor it works fine

2x series 100W 24V PSU (48V, 200W total)
PSUs goes into Hiccup mode and keeps restarting, output = 0A
If added a 100W Resistor it works fine

3x series 100W 12V PSU (36V, 300W total)
PSUs goes into Hiccup mode and keeps restarting, output = 0A
If added a 100W Resistor it works fine

So the first test is the one I mentioned in the post in the first place. What brought me to buy other PSU is to try to decrease the voltage and/ or the current output. First I tried to decrease the W from 300W to 200W keeping the voltage constant, to see if the current was the issues, it wasn't. Then I tried with unsuccess to test 36V instead of 48V but nothing changed.

A common phenomena is that all the PSUs, without any regard to V or I, goes into HICCUP Mode which is like a continuos switching on and off. As soon as the output starts the current gets limited and the green light starts to switch off, then the device outputs zero current and after few second restarts all over.

I still do not have a solution, but I believe that I should work more with resistors, since this is the only way to make them all work; unfortunately my 100W 15ohmJ limits too much the current and overheats, so I should look for another one.
 

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I also like to know what the Vdrops on the resistor and what the charging current is, I bet it will be really low.
48V with 15 Ohms resistor inline, the max short circuit current is 3.2A.
You are feeding the PWM SCC with power supply that is rated at 6.3A, PWM is basically a current control, the switch MOSFET will be fully on in bulk charging so the battery will try to bring the power supply Voltage down close to the battery Voltage and it will draw lots of current, so no way your power supplies can provide more than 6.3A. You need power supply that has higher Voltage, I.E. 5V higher than the battery Voltage to charge and higher current rating since we are dealing with PWM Charge controller, not MPPT that converts high Voltage low current to battery charging Voltage and higher current.
The 15 Ohms resistor you out inline with the output of the power supply will limit the charging current so the power supply will not go into over current shut down mode due to the battery is trying to draw so much current from power supply.
To get max 30A charging current from PWM, your power supply has to be able to deliver at least 30A without going into shutdown, it will be the type that goes into CC mode when the current is being drawn at higher than the rating, the power supplies you are using probably has just over current shut off protection which is typical, the one that goes into CC mode is more expensive.
Learn about power supply:

Q69

What are the protection forms of overload/overcurrent?​

Ans:
When current drawn exceeds the rating of the PSU, the protection circuit will be triggered to protect the unit against overload/overcurrent.
Protections of overload/overcurrent can be divided into several forms:
(1)FOLDBACK CURRENT LIMITING
Output current decreases about 20% of rated current, shown as curve (a) in the figure below.

(2)CONSTANT CURRENT LIMITING
Output current remains at a constant level and within the specified range while the output voltage drops to a lower level, shown as curve (b) in the figure below.

(3)OVER POWER LIMITING
Output power remains constant. As output load increases, output voltage decreases in proportion, shown as curve (c) in the figure below.

(4)HICCUP CURRENT LIMITING
Output voltage and current keep pulsing ON and OFF repeatedly when protection is activated. The unit automatically recovers when faulty condition is removed.

(5)SHUT OFF
Output voltage and current are cut off when output load reaches protection range.
NOTE: Protection mode of some of the products combines with different types of the forms mentioned, such as constant current limiting + shut down.

View attachment 129640

Recover method:
(1)Auto Recovery: PSU recovers automatically after faulty condition is removed.
(2)Re-power on: PSU restarts by manual AC re-power on after faulty condition is removed.
Note:Please do not operate PSU in overcurrent or short-circuit condition for a long period of time to prevent a shorten lifespan or damaging the PSU.
Thank you for the answer, it is exactly as you said.
The PSUs goes into (4) HICCUP CURRENT LIMITING and they keep restarting on and off whatever the Voltage and/or Current is.
Unfortunately I have space problems so I cannot use a big and bulky PSU just like meanwell and other CC mode operating PSU. I hope to find a way to make this tiny PSUs to work.
 
I would expect you to have to add that series resistor into a PWM SCC to charge a 24V battery from a 48V source.

That buffer resistance is needed. I would also expect an MPPT SCC to work better from a power supply with an input limiting resistor.

boB
Thank you. Which buffer resistance do you think best suits my problem ? The 100W 15ohmJ is definitely too big since limits so much the current output and overheats in seconds; which size could be correct ?
MPPT is the perfect answer, but I have huge space problems since the system is enclosed in a cabinet and this tiny PWM is the only solution at the moment:(
 
tl;dr: A solar charge controller is expecting a solar panel as its power source. Using anything else - such as this constant voltage power supply - is simply wrong. You can make it work, if you have absolutely no other option, by using a 3.0ohm, 105W resistor in series with the solar charge controller, and here's 1) the reason for the issue you're having, 2) the math behind the 3ohm resistor recommendation, and 3) the correct solution for the system you appear to be building:


1) What is happening?

PWM solar charge controllers maximize current as long as the input voltage is above the battery voltage (plus some amount of minimum voltage drop internal to the PWM switches used). You have constant voltage power supplies, put in series they supply 48v at 6.3A, or 300W. The PWM charge controller is a 30A at 24v, or 720W. 30A > 6.3A, and when the charge controller tries to pull 30A, your power supplies recognize a fault condition, and shut down to avoid damaging themselves.

Putting a resistance in series reduces the voltage at the charge controller - as it ramps up the current the voltage drop due to the resistor increases, and eventually the voltage at the charge controller is just above the battery voltage, and it stops trying to pull more current.

In other words, you're making your constant voltage power supply look more like a solar panel - which is what these PWM charge controllers are expecting. As the current goes up, the voltage goes down. The total power output varies. Here's a chart of your situation with the resistor in place:

1674478067969.png
The current, along the X axis, determines the voltage drop across the 15 ohm resistor (blue). V = I * R (Ohm's law) indicates that, for instance, at 2A of current through the 15 ohm resistor, the resistor will have 30V across it. That leaves 48-30=18V for your charge controller. Except your battery voltage will be above that, so the PWM charge controller will never pull that much current. It will pull enough current to bring the input voltage down to the battery voltage. Once the input voltage (orange) equals the battery voltage, or just above it, it will not pull more current.

This means your charge controller will pull under 1.5A using this setup, which means it will charge the batteries at 1.5A * 25.5V = 36W. The power resistor will have a 22.5V drop, and at 1.5A it will be generating ~34W. So of the 300W of power available at the power supply, 36W will go into the batteries, and 34W into heating the air.

2) Maximizing power transfer by changing only the resistor

If you want to maximize the power going into the PWM controller ONLY by changing the resistor: The maximum current the power supply can give is 6.3A. Let's leave a little overhead to avoid shutdown, and consume 6A. At full charge, the batteries will be around 28.8V. Let's assume the PWM charge controller is very efficient, and has less than a 0.2V drop between input and output.

This means the maximum power transfer occurs when 6A is pulled with 28.8V+0.2V=30V at the input of the charge controller. With a 48V power supply, the resistor needs to drop 48V-30V = 18V. 18V at 6A the resistance needed is 18V/6A=3ohm. The resistor will be generating heat, with a 18V drop and 6A it'll generate 18V * 6A = 108W. You'll need a 108W or better 3ohm resister, and you'll need to add a cooling fan to prevent the resistor from overheating - it needs to remain under 40C. The charge controller will be converting 30V * 6A = 180W into the batteries with 28.8A * 6A = 173W actually going into the batteries.

This means you'll consume 48V * 6A 288W, with only 173W going into the batteries, and the rest being converted to heat. Given the power supplies are only 86% efficient, you'll be drawing about 335W from the mains. Your total conversion efficiency, therefore, is 52%.

Just to re-iterate, as it's a safety concern, the resistor will go past 200C before it fails it you do not actively cool it. It will generate 100W+ of heat that you MUST move away from the resistor. If you don't, You're Gonna Have A Bad Day™.

3) A better solution

The real question, though, is WHY?
What is the point of using two converters, from AC to 48VDC, then from that to your battery's 24VDC? Even if you chose two very efficient converters, you're still spending more money on those converters, and they're still wasting more of the energy than one converter would use.

A 24V LiFePO4 charger (AC directly to battery) is between $60 and $200 ( https://www.google.com/search?q=24v+lifepo4+charger ), which is probably less than the cost of your two power supplies and the pwm charge controller. Even one of the cheap 24V 10A chargers will push 240W into your batteries with under 36W lost in conversion - an 85% charging efficiency, compared to 52% efficiency of the hack you're trying to make work.

Assuming you have a 50AH battery bank, your 48v-->resistor-->PWM-->battery setup will charge in just over 8 hours, putting 1.4kWH into the batteries, consuming 2.8kWH in the process. With a 10A charger directly into the batteries, though, it'll take 5 hours, putting 1.4kWH into the batteries, consuming 1.6kWH in the process.

The new power resistor, cooling fan, and appropriate mounting/airflow/fire safety enclosure is going to cost $45+, so there's even less reason to continue to pursue this hack.

Solar charge controllers expect and should be used with solar panels as the input. Using any other power source - whether another power supply, battery, alternator, generator, etc - is almost always a bad idea. Find and use a charge controller with the input that matches your power source.
 
Thank you for the answer, it is exactly as you said.
The PSUs goes into (4) HICCUP CURRENT LIMITING and they keep restarting on and off whatever the Voltage and/or Current is.
Unfortunately I have space problems so I cannot use a big and bulky PSU just like meanwell and other CC mode operating PSU. I hope to find a way to make this tiny PSUs to work.
Per your post #12
So how much money did you spend so far on the three 12V power supplies, two 24V power supplies, and the PWM Solar charge controller?
It looks like you wasted money on those low current rating power supplies.
BTW, it is not really working fine either since the system is wasting so much power and very little goes into charging the batteries, wrong rating power supplies are being used.
 
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There is a mistake between one of these tre components, they are all compatible
Who says they are compatible?
I can't see any manufacturer saying that

You've got your power supplies, which may not be current limited, hooked up to a charge controller that tries to pull max current by shorting the input to the output for variable lengths of time.
The power supplies obviously don't like being shorted and are shutting down. The resistor creates a bolt a voltage divider and current limiter.
Either tune the resistor if you must make it work or change plans entirely.
 
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