Help for Ukraine

[jan willem]

Hello Will and all other experts. Although I have watched several of your very informative youtube reviews and home back-up solutions, I still feel unable to give a solid and thorough answer to my family in Ukraine who are in need of an electrical back-up system needed mainly for cooking (and lighting and keeping the refrigerator running) during one or two days (after black-outs caused by bombing), which will be charged from the wall outlet only. My question is, which cell chemistry (li-iron or li phosphate for instance), which battery capacity and which minimum ac rated power is needed for this purpose. Amount of recharge cycles is (hopefully) not as important. My family and many other interested people in Ukraine will be very gratefull for your thoughts and advice!

 

[DThames]

Lighting and light loads, are easy.
Refrigeration is a larger load, meaning more/larger battery.
Cooking with electric will drain a battery very quickly compared to the lighting and refrigeration loads.

You can run a hot plate, electric skillet, crock pot, and microwave from a battery inverter system as long as you don't run them a lot. A lot of solar panels will help charge the battery but someone in a war zone being able to get solar panels, I would see that as a challenge. So I am guessing this battery would need to charge from grid power and then last until the grid was restored, correct?

LiFePo4 would be ideal but Li-ion and lead acid will get the job done. LiFePo4 should not be charged when the battery is below freezing and with winter coming that might be an issue with the power off. However, if you can only charge when the power is on, the user would need to warm up the battery before charging when the power did come back on.

Minimum rating, is hard to answer without a lot of specific details. For example, a refrigerator might need 2 KWH per day in a warm room but it would need way less if the room was near freezing. If you can't charge every day, the battery needs to double in size to run two days without charging and triple in size to run for three days without charging. 5kwh might be a good starting place for battery size. More is better.

You will need an inverter to convert the battery DC to AC that is used by home appliances. 1000w or larger to run a refrigerator, but larger would be better. Size will depend on how much power the refrigerator uses to start its motor.

 

[Delphinus]

If you plan to cook with electricity it will drain a lot of power, if it's a house I will recommend a small generator plus battery.

A microwave need a lot of power if you go for lead you need about 15Kw to power it.

In a war zone if you can get fuel, only the generator probably will be my choice.

 

[DThames]

If you plan to cook with electricity it will drain a lot of power, if it's a house I will recommend a small generator plus battery.

A microwave need a lot of power if you go for lead you need about 15Kw to power it.

In a war zone if you can get fuel, only the generator probably will be my choice.

1500 watts for a microwave would be closer.

 

[Delphinus]

1500 watts for a microwave would be closer.

I drive my lead at 0.1C over this I got a big drop in voltage and can't get the 50% discharge.

 

[jan willem]

Thank you all for your thoughts and input! A real example of its intended use is: cooking with a 2200 watt ceramic plate for 30 minutes, powering a refrigerator with freezing compartment for 24 hours (300w per hour, ~2200 w surge) and some lights (24 hours). Do your answers mean that investing in Lithium phosphate would be unnecessary? That means less expensive and less weight (transport costs...) i presume. A (gas / petrol) generator is not practical, since it is intended for use in an apartment (without balcony).

 

[IkkeDus]

Thank you all for your thoughts and input! A real example of its intended use is: cooking with a 2200 watt ceramic plate for 30 minutes, powering a refrigerator with freezing compartment for 24 hours (300w per hour, ~2200 w surge) and some lights (24 hours). Do your answers mean that investing in Lithium phosphate would be unnecessary? That means less expensive and less weight (transport costs...) i presume. A (gas / petrol) generator is not practical, since it is intended for use in an apartment (without balcony).

I would suggest to have a look at the resources section and specifically: https://diysolarforum.com/resources/system-energy-audit-and-sizing-spread-sheet.128/ to get an idea of what your energy need would be.

And as a side note (or I am misunderstanding your comment): lead batteries are way more heavy compared to LFP, but I assume lead are easier to come by in the Ukraine at this moment?
That 300W/hr for the fridge seems very high? I have a big one that uses roughly 180kWh/year?

I have a small 280A/12V system (in a shed with solar) to power a small fridge with a 800W DC to AC inverter. That would clearly not be enough to cook on. I would suggest to look at a 48V system as well.

Edit: NL toevallig?

 

[OzSolar]

I still feel unable to give a solid and thorough answer to my family in Ukraine who are in need of an electrical back-up system needed mainly for cooking (and lighting and keeping the refrigerator running) during one or two days (after black-outs caused by bombing), which will be charged from the wall outlet only

My heart really goes out to Ukraine and would love to help in whatever tiny way I can.

Have you seen a portable power station? Something like this BLUETTI has could help a lot and can be recharged from the wall. Electric cooking will drain it pretty quickly though.

I would suggest that you also look into helping them set up for a camping trip in their apartment.

Have a tent that you can set INSIDE your house. Insulate your self from the floor with extra towels or blankets or whatever you have.

To keep thier food from spoiling assuming it's not cold enough to just store it outside a in critter resistant box they can keep several of these reusable ice packs in thier thier freezer then move to the fridge when the power goes out and refreeze them again when it comes back on.

To cook thier food they can use portable camp stove the runs off a fuel source that is safe to be stored in the apartment. There's a lot of stoves that use a disposable propane cylinder that you can get hours of cooking from. Those same cylinders can be use to run a small "indoor safe" portable heater as well.

For light they can keep a hand full of these lanterns charged. They also have a pretty health battery so you can charge up a cell phone several times.

 

[DThames]

I drive my lead at 0.1C over this I got a big drop in voltage and can't get the 50% discharge.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about what needed to be delivered to the load.

 

[Delphinus]

My heart really goes out to Ukraine and would love to help in whatever tiny way I can.

Have you seen a portable power station? Something like this BLUETTI has could help a lot and can be recharged from the wall. Electric cooking will drain it pretty quickly though.

I would suggest that you also look into helping them set up for a camping trip in their apartment.

To keep thier food from spoiling they can keep several of these reusable ice packs in thier thier freezer then move to the fridge when the power goes out and refreeze them again when it comes back on.

To cook thier food they can use portable camp stove the runs off a fuel source that is safe to be stored in the apartment. There's a lot of stoves that use a disposable propane cylinder that you can get hours of cooking from. Those same cylinders can be use to run a small "indoor safe" portable heater as well.

For light they can keep a hand full of these lanterns charged. They also have a pretty health battery so you can charge up a cell phone several times.

I agree with you, cooking with electricity it will drain any battery fast, small camping gas stove is the way, the portable power station is the ideal option, problem is the price, they can try to use an 2 or 3Kw UPS or 12-24V inverter with a few large batteries to power the fridge and a couple of led lamps.

There are good LiFePo4 12V batteries but they are expensive, all depend on your budget.

 

[brum]

If it was me I would use LPG for cooking (camping stove), a cupboard outside instead of a fridge (winter is coming), and some lead-acid battery suitable for cycling with 12V led strips for lightning (very high efficiency, no need for inverter, pretty cheap).

If hot water is an issue - a camping LPG boiler can do the job. Worst case you can use it with a 12V pump if there is no water coming out of the tap.

For heating - woods. These do not need electricity.

The battery is a good thing but is expensive. And will work as long as it has a charge. And requires knowledge to start using it. Hearing how rare you get electricity from the grid and how russia is demolishing Ukraine's power grid I would not rely on it to survive.

Go for the cheap and reliable solution. Base your strategy on what energy sources you can get to.

 

[jan willem]

Thanks again for these tips and advice! You are right my estimate of refrigerator use was not accurate. After watching again a nice and informative video on building a diy alternative for the ecoflowdelta pro, I do believe my family - being novices in the field of electricity - have choosen for the ecoflow delta pro. Would you say that this device is suitable for cooking one time on a ceramic plate 2200 watt's for approximately 30 minutes?

yes i am from (proud about our team) NL

 

[DJSmiley]

Ceramic cooking is rather ineffective. Induction is much more effective. It will work, 30min cooking requires approx 1100Wh, and with 3600Wh you have sufficient power. But with 3 cooking sessions, not counting other things which are powered, it will be empty.

Its only a matter of time. How long do you expect the power outages to be? That's questionable in this situation, especially when winter is coming and delays in repair due to bad weather might occur.

Switching to induction is an option I would consider. Even getting a small single or double-burner hob makes a lot of sense. (90 euro at Lidl). That would lower the power needed and will give you more offgrid time. For the 100-120 euro involved (incl suitable pans) I would add an induction and keep the ceramic unit for the grid-only.

Regarding gas or other options: It depends on the availability. Not sure if gas / gas infrastructure is or will be affected. Maybe diesel is the better option? There are also diesel powered stoves. They are not very cheap, but a Ecoflow isn't either.

And if you add a 200 euro Chinese diesel heater you can provide heat as well if the grid goes doen. Just add a CO2 meter for safety, and off course they need to make an exhaust hole somewhere.

As for the fridge: With the current temperatures outside you probably just can put it outside (on a balcony if available) and don't need power at all.

 

[Delphinus]

Thanks again for these tips and advice! You are right my estimate of refrigerator use was not accurate. After watching again a nice and informative video on building a diy alternative for the ecoflowdelta pro, I do believe my family - being novices in the field of electricity - have choosen for the ecoflow delta pro. Would you say that this device is suitable for cooking one time on a ceramic plate 2200 watt's for approximately 30 minutes?

yes i am from (proud about our team) NL

If it has 3600w capacity and if the load is 2200w, 30' should drain 1100w and remain 2500w/h. To save enery it's important to use the right pot that will allow faster cook and dont have to consume for the complete 30'.
I reforce buy a camping stove, you dont know when power return, keep the energy for fridge and the confort of a lamp. Also buy and send them some good led lamps and confirm energy rating, I was suprised when I went to buy a replacment for my gate, Poland brand and efficiency was class H.
They must charge it in the kitchen in an outlet with a breaker for a machine.

 

[OzSolar]

I keep thinking about this "Help for Ukraine" and other similar posts.

There's some really smart people (not me) here and I would love it if we could put together some sort of well thought out sticky that offers some very achievable help. We need to focus our suggestions on how to keep people alive for a few days versus the finer points of which inverter they should use. I suggest we try to stick to as many non electric suggestions as possible.

 

[scoharri]

I think I have given plenty to Ukraine by way of my tax $$$$$

 

[SparkyJJO]

I think I have given plenty to Ukraine by way of my tax $$$$$

Except you know the crooks in between are taking it all and most of it isn't being used for actual help.

I feel for the people there. I cannot stand the scum running the show.