Hi from Tasmania and Solar Panel brown staining.

[Xenos]

Hi, I stumbled across this DIY forum and at last I may be able to sort out a few solar questions in the future. I live in Southern Tasmania.


I have 6 mismatched solar panels totalling about 420 watts which I know shouldn't be done but it works for the moment. I get about 20 amps when the sun is shining . I really need to change at least 4 and buy 3 more 100 watt to match up with my 2 latest 100 watt Renogy. The three Solarex 60 watt panels I've been using for 32 years and cost and arm and a leg back then, $600 each. The 4th is a Solarex 40? watt that's 38 years old, an ex Telecom solar radio phone panel that the lads left me when they upgraded the Telcom systems together with 2 six volt sealed batteries that weigh a ton. . This ancient panel still gives a modest 2.39Amps. The solar array goes through my latest acquisition a Renogy 40 amp solar controller/regulator. and then to another acquisition a single 300aH ATG LiFPO4 battery. Today I've attached a 32Amp 400V DC circuit breaker to the solar array. The battery has a monitor and a circuit breaker built into a case holding the battery. I'm about to add a 40 amp bolt on midi fuse to the load side.
I'm so happy that this newish system can now run my satellite internet plus the usual lights and telly.

Photos. 40 watt Solarex panel and Solarex 60 watt . Note the brown staining on the 60 watt panel.
Any ideas what causes this staining? Only one of the 3 has it.

 

[sunshine_eggo]

That looks like delamination between the cells and the glass. Those likely aren't stains. They are air pockets.

 

[Don B. Cilly]

which I know shouldn't be done but it works for the moment

Of course it can be done and of course it works :·)
With such a low-power system, you can do pretty much anything.
It's when you start dealing with a lot of power that you should start to worry about things.
-

 

[Xenos]

That looks like delamination between the cells and the glass. Those likely aren't stains. They are air pockets.

Thanks for that advise. More than likely that panel at least would need to be replaced. I'll check the 3 of them for voltage and amperage. I found this on a search after your suggestion. https://www.nist.gov/system/files/d...dupont_worldwide_field_inspection_results.pdf

 

[Xenos]

Of course it can be done and of course it works :·)
With such a low-power system, you can do pretty much anything.
It's when you start dealing with a lot of power that you should start to worry about things.
-

Thanks for your advice. I've always done things as best I can with what I have. Picked up a 120aH AGM "FullRiver" battery at the tip for $7. It was showing 12.84 volts at the tip so I brought it home. It's one hell of a good battery thrown out to be scrapped.

We're pretty happy with our small system.
Kids have left home which is a bonus with power usage.
Woodstove does the water heating and cooking.
Firebox does the heating
gas does the fridge and small petrol generator does the washing.
We're living quite comfortably in the forest in a remote location off grid.

 

[WYtreasure]

Thanks for your advice. I've always done things as best I can with what I have. Picked up a 120aH AGM "FullRiver" battery at the tip for $7. It was showing 12.84 volts at the tip so I brought it home. It's one hell of a good battery thrown out to be scrapped.

We're pretty happy with our small system.
Kids have left home which is a bonus with power usage.
Woodstove does the water heating and cooking.
Firebox does the heating
gas does the fridge and small petrol generator does the washing.
We're living quite comfortably in the forest in a remote location off grid.

Welcome to the party Pliny.

Life is good, enjoy.

 

[Don B. Cilly]

You have a 300Ah LFP battery? You can get a small inverter and run an AC fridge with that easily. Just get a pure sine wave one.
Gas fridges are... OK, but if you use bottles, they don't last long, do they?
I have a full size fridge, it uses ~50W, 20 minutes in the hour. Has pretty serious inrush current for about a tenth of a second, say 5-600W, when it starts, but a 1000W inverter should deal with that.
-

 

[Xenos]

You have a 300Ah LFP battery? You can get a small inverter and run an AC fridge with that easily. Just get a pure sine wave one.
Gas fridges are... OK, but if you use bottles, they don't last long, do they?
I have a full size fridge, it uses ~50W, 20 minutes in the hour. Has pretty serious inrush current for about a tenth of a second, say 5-600W, when it starts, but a 1000W inverter should deal with that.
-

Gas bottles!! I can only get the 8.4Kg to my property and they last 16 to 18 days

What size and brand of Inverter do you recommend?
I was looking at Renogy 1000watts and 2000s yesterday and also wondered does the inverter need to be connected directly to the battery?

 

[WYtreasure]

Read the reviews on renogy. Too many are

Yes most folks say connect direct to the battery.

EDIT: As Tim Tim says in the following post, a fuse is appropriate. A Class-T fuse gets my vote, spendieee but fast.

 

[Tim Tim]

Gas bottles!! I can only get the 8.4Kg to my property and they last 16 to 18 days

What size and brand of Inverter do you recommend?
I was looking at Renogy 1000watts and 2000s yesterday and also wondered does the inverter need to be connected directly to the battery?

Welcome Pliny,

I’m up at Port Stephens NSW. Firstly you will need to know what the wattage of your fridge and then pick an inverter to suit with some leeway especially if you want to use another appliance at the same time.

Giandel have been reviewed by Will and I have a 3000/6000 that works flawlessly but you will not need one that size. They come with the cables to connect straight to the battery but it is appropriate to place a fuse between that compliments the cable size.

Giandel Pure Sine Wave 1000W/2000W Power Inverter 12V-240V Cigarette light plug | eBay

Our specialist will find out the reason accroding to your video. Everything about you, we are all keeping concerning. Surge power : 2000W. Output waveform : Pure sine wave ( THD ≤ 3%). Continuous output frequency: 1000W.

www.ebay.com.au

This is the seller I have used on two occasions and whom has provided good service.

Tim

 

[Xenos]

Welcome Pliny,

I’m up at Port Stephens NSW. Firstly you will need to know what the wattage of your fridge and then pick an inverter to suit with some leeway especially if you want to use another appliance at the same time.

Giandel have been reviewed by Will and I have a 3000/6000 that works flawlessly but you will not need one that size. They come with the cables to connect straight to the battery but it is appropriate to place a fuse between that compliments the cable size.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2315440...ons and whom has provided good service. Tim

Thanks for the heads up Tim Tim. They look great
I checked the fridge a "Bushman XCD 280) Its input was a surprise, 300 watt at 230V. I guess that's 1.3 amps?

So a 1000 watt inverter would be adequate?
What current would the 1000 draw without load?
The 2000 I see says 'No Load currents ： 1.4A

 

[Tim Tim]

Thanks for the heads up Tim Tim. They look great
I checked the fridge a "Bushman XCD 280) Its input was a surprise, 300 watt at 230V. I guess that's 1.3 amps?

So a 1000 watt inverter would be adequate?
What current would the 1000 draw without load?
The 2000 I see says 'No Load currents ： 1.4A

If you are going to use the inverter for the fridge only then you are able to use a smaller one. Not sure what the current draw on this one is and I couldn’t see it on the 1000 watt one either.

I was anticipating a large current draw on my 3000/6000 but after leaving it on for a couple of weeks without use I was pleasantly surprised.

600 Watt Inverter

Correct 300 watts at 230v is 1.3 amps but 300 watts at 12 volts is 25amps from the battery without taking efficiency into consideration. Your fridge will cycle so so it will not be that high but it will still be a large drain over 24 hours. If you have one of the plug in watt meters you can measure if over 24 hours to get an accurate power use.

Before you start spending any money take a good think about what you want to achieve so you are best doing a full cost analysis to work out the best way to go if you want to run the fridge on solar instead of gas. You do of course have gas as a backup if your solar is insufficient.

365/16 x $25 a bottle = $570 a year on gas @ $30 = $675

Another battery?
Inverter.
Additional solar panels.

 

[WYtreasure]

Before you start spending any money take a good think about what you want to achieve so you are best doing a full cost analysis to work out the best way to go if you want to run the fridge on solar instead of gas. You do of course have gas as a backup if your solar is insufficient.

Yep Yep, what Tim TIm said.
It can't be said enough. Wait till all your research and thinkin is done, finished, and over before pushing the buy button.

 

[Xenos]

I think at this time we'll stick with gas. I pay $26.50 at Mitre10 but like petrol that may skyrocket.
I hadn't considered the 12 volt amperage. I had thought I could use an inverter to grind coffee and use our small espresso machine. At the moment I'm using a petrol generator to do both.
I had thought to pull down the 240 V coffee grinder and see if it has a DC motor.
Would you have any inkling if it would?

 

[Tim Tim]

I think at this time we'll stick with gas. I pay $26.50 at Mitre10 but like petrol that may skyrocket.
I hadn't considered the 12 volt amperage. I had thought I could use an inverter to grind coffee and use our small espresso machine. At the moment I'm using a petrol generator to do both.
I had thought to pull down the 240 V coffee grinder and see if it has a DC motor.
Would you have any inkling if it would?

It is possible to use an inverter for your coffee grinder and small espresso machine but again it will depend on the wattage of the machines as to how much power you use and the size of the inverter needed. I do exactly the same when camping but I have 570ah of battery.

My coffee grinder is 125 watt so that equates to approximately 12a @ 12 volts if allowing for inefficiencies but given that it runs for only about 30 seconds that would equate to 12a/60 mins/2 =0.1 amps

However my Nespresso coffee machine uses 1250 watts so 10x more than the coffee the grinder if run for 30 seconds = 1amp. Note that the inverter you were looking at was the 1000 watt so you will need to check the wattage of your coffee machine.

Your 240v coffee grinder will have a AC motor.

Remember at the end of the day you want your solar panels to pump in more amps into the batteries than you take out and you want enough battery to cover those days that you have no sun or you will need your back up source of power.

 

[Hedges]

Thanks for that advise. More than likely that panel at least would need to be replaced. I'll check the 3 of them for voltage and amperage. I found this on a search after your suggestion. https://www.nist.gov/system/files/d...dupont_worldwide_field_inspection_results.pdf

Delamination of cell from glass would mess up index of refraction match, reduce light transfer. It could also reduce heat transfer.

If you can determine the wattage out of it, you'll know how well it produces. I found a panel can have good Voc and good Isc, but reduced Imp. I tested my panels into an electric heater, selected to get approximately Vmp & Imp. I had low current from a string of 12 panels (compared to another identical string) and found 5 weak panels (three low Isc, two good Isc but low Imp)

I borrowed an infrared camera, and bad panels had mottled appearance, a number of hot cells.

I think at this time we'll stick with gas. I pay $26.50 at Mitre10 but like petrol that may skyrocket.
I hadn't considered the 12 volt amperage. I had thought I could use an inverter to grind coffee and use our small espresso machine. At the moment I'm using a petrol generator to do both.
I had thought to pull down the 240 V coffee grinder and see if it has a DC motor.
Would you have any inkling if it would?

Some motors are brush-type universal, easier to start than induction. And will simply run slower at lower voltage.
Water heaters, for those of us with 120/240V split phase, I say run a 240V element at 120V for 1/4 the power draw. If your world is 240V only, consider a 240/120V step-down transformer to feed the heating element. (if full current is too much.)

 

[Don B. Cilly]

I see no reason to stick with gas for the fridge. You have plenty of battery for it.
Just get a decent inverter, and connect it to the battery with decent cables.
The coffee grinder seems quite irrelevant... keep in mind though that real coffee nuts use hand (cranked) grinders - of which they make some really pretty ones :·)
The espresso thing. If you have a decent inverter it shouldn't be a problem either. How many coffees an hour do you have? ;·)
-

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I see no reason to stick with gas for the fridge. You have plenty of battery for it.
Just get a decent inverter, and connect it to the battery with decent cables.
The coffee grinder seems quite irrelevant... keep in mind though that real coffee nuts use hand (cranked) grinders - of which they make some really pretty ones :·)
The espresso thing. If you have a decent inverter it shouldn't be a problem either. How many coffees an hour do you have? ;·)
-

If it's an absorption-type fridge, those use 5-6X same-sized compressor-type fridges.

 

[Xenos]

If it's an absorption-type fridge, those use 5-6X same-sized compressor-type fridges.

It is an absorption fridge a really good one. I was surprised how well it works. -20 in freezer. I reckon I'll stick with gas at this stage. Though going all solar would be something better to attain.

 

[Xenos]

It is possible to use an inverter for your coffee grinder and small espresso machine but again it will depend on the wattage of the machines as to how much power you use and the size of the inverter needed. I do exactly the same when camping but I have 570ah of battery.

My coffee grinder is 125 watt so that equates to approximately 12a @ 12 volts if allowing for inefficiencies but given that it runs for only about 30 seconds that would equate to 12a/60 mins/2 =0.1 amps

However my Nespresso coffee machine uses 1250 watts so 10x more than the coffee the grinder if run for 30 seconds = 1amp. Note that the inverter you were looking at was the 1000 watt so you will need to check the wattage of your coffee machine.

Your 240v coffee grinder will have a AC motor.

Remember at the end of the day you want your solar panels to pump in more amps into the batteries than you take out and you want enough battery to cover those days that you have no sun or you will need your back up source of power.

Thanks for the advise. and I will give trying to pull the grinder down a miss. I did give it a shot but came to a point wondering how to next. The mysteries how modern gadgets are put together. Not like the old days.

 

[Xenos]

I see no reason to stick with gas for the fridge. You have plenty of battery for it.
Just get a decent inverter, and connect it to the battery with decent cables.
The coffee grinder seems quite irrelevant... keep in mind though that real coffee nuts use hand (cranked) grinders - of which they make some really pretty ones :·)
The espresso thing. If you have a decent inverter it shouldn't be a problem either. How many coffees an hour do you have? ;·)
-

At this stage I'll stick with gas.
Hand Cranking coffee beans. I did that for years and still have quite a collection.
I thought I was visiting a new age of coffee enjoyment when I bought my first electric coffee grinder.
I've been prepping coffee beans away for a year now. I date each kg bags expiry date with a marker pen.
Come the end I will drag out my hand grinder. and have my many last cups of freshly brewed plunger coffee. ?

 

[Xenos]

Delamination of cell from glass would mess up index of refraction match, reduce light transfer. It could also reduce heat transfer.

If you can determine the wattage out of it, you'll know how well it produces. I found a panel can have good Voc and good Isc, but reduced Imp. I tested my panels into an electric heater, selected to get approximately Vmp & Imp. I had low current from a string of 12 panels (compared to another identical string) and found 5 weak panels (three low Isc, two good Isc but low Imp)

I borrowed an infrared camera, and bad panels had mottled appearance, a number of hot cells.



Some motors are brush-type universal, easier to start than induction. And will simply run slower at lower voltage.
Water heaters, for those of us with 120/240V split phase, I say run a 240V element at 120V for 1/4 the power draw. If your world is 240V only, consider a 240/120V step-down transformer to feed the heating element. (if full current is too much.)

Thanks Hedges for your reply. The experiment with the infrared camera sounds like a good idea.
I searched for 12 volt coffee grinders and it's hard to find any and I gave the idea pulling grinders apart and using on an inverter.
I start a petrol generator for the espresso machine and grind coffee at the same time.
It's not on for long so is really not so much a problem

I'll be replacing my 3 old 60 watt panels with 3 new 100 watt ones. Because the old ones are hard to test, that is they wired internally not like these new wonderful connectors and connection box is difficult to access I'll test them when I snip each connection before removing fro the roof. I'll be interested what amperage and voltage they give individually.
Hot water .. we are fortunate to have a wood cooking stove with a wet back.It's 60 years old bought second hand.. still has the same water tank and all works fine. Touch wood.

 

[Don B. Cilly]

I'll be replacing my 3 old 60 watt panels with 3 new 100 watt ones.

That's probably not a very good idea. In this day and age, I believe the best bang for your buck are monocrystalline "24V" ones in the 400-450W range. Here they're about €180 each.
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[Xenos]

That's probably not a very good idea. In this day and age, I believe the best bang for your buck are monocrystalline "24V" ones in the 400-450W range. Here they're about €180 each.
-

I probably needed the advise before I purchased these panels.I am on a small budget with a small system.I hope to enjoy the benefits with the coming southern winter. My previous battery and solar array was lacking.I live in the bush and require very little. Still a thank you and I will take your advise on board Don.

 

[Don B. Cilly]