How do Calif. Community Enegery Electric Generation Charges work with solar PV?

[Calvin98]

It seems that the Community Enegery Electric Generation Charges "CEGC" stated around Sept of 2022. You automatically got put in and set up with you local provider unless you opted out and stayed with the utility. Before you had to (or could) pay the NEM the electric charges at the end of your year. Or if you have a credit, it was wiped out and you stated new at the new year. Now it seems like you have to pay if you use more in any one month than you generate. So no more net over a year. Is that right? You could generate more than you use at the end of your year and get a credit at the end of the year that you could use to pay the "CEGC" charges for the coming year. Seems a bit confusing because the utility also charges for the power in a separate section, and the "CEGC" charges it again in a separate section. I'm guessing you are not charged 2x, but it is not easy to understand.

If you have solar PV, what is the best strategy then? Generate more than you use every month of the year? Generate extra over a year and use the credit to off set the community generation charges? Other?

 

[pvgirl]

Looking at one these providers, EBCE, you pay the utility for delivery of electricity, and EBCE for the generation of electricity, although the way they split the charges to do this on the bill seems very convoluted. Also looks like they offer both monthly and annual true up, with over production credits that ture annually no matter what, so you can choose what works both best for you. This may be different for the provider in your case.

 

[glandpuck]

I am in So Cal and my power was transferred to a community power supplier while SDG&E operates the infrastructure. ALL OF THE PROMISED BENEFITS WERE STRIPPED OUT BY THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE AND THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION.
This was done in the form of a newly created charge authority granted to the utilities. It is called the PCIA and may appear on your monthly bill as a line item.
"Power Charge Indifference Adjustment (PCIA) comprises the above market cost of the Utility's
existing procurement portfolio and is calculated annually. This is a cost that is ultimately borne by
all customers. The PCIA bill line item ensures that customers pay their share of generation costs
already contracted to serve them."

I have reviewed the documents. I have advanced college degrees. The formulas and concepts used to create these charges are beyond the comprehension of normal mortals. In a word, it is diabolical. It presumes your new community supplier will run out of electricity supply and so your utility company will come to the rescue with power they purchased on your behalf in advance of whether you need it or not. So by adding this amount to your monthly charges, your community power supply savings are minimal at best.

The consumer is screwed.

 

[zanydroid]

PCIA is independent of the true-up method. But yeah there's some really weird doodoo going on with CCAs.

The problem with getting advice on this forum on CCAs is that there's a dozen CCAs (EDIT: 25) all with different rules. You might get more help on a massive forum like r/solar or posting on a local forum. Another problem is that I can't just tell you that the CCA will take care of you and you should not worry about understanding the math, because some forum folks have gotten screwed.

For PCE the way it works for me is I think.

PG&E: Transmission and Distribution is on annual true-up based on initial PTO date
PCE: Generation is trued-up monthly with credits carrying forward. I don't know how deficit in previous month is handled (IE if you have past deficit that new credit would have covered, do they make you whole that month). But you will get cashed out if you accumulate $100 of credit on the April bill, so if you trigger this your deficits will be wiped out. I think this implies that you will be fine over the long-ish term despite potential deficits your first year.

I believe PCE is better than most CCAs, but that could be my stockholm syndrome talking.

And it's not worth losing sleep over the first year, that's the least consequential late stage capitalism screwage happening in your life probably.

Transitioning to CCAs needs to be timed properly to avoid getting screwed. Actually a lot of IOU<->CCA operations need to be timed properly.

 

[Calvin98]

So its not just me then. Can't make heads or tails of it. What you said make no sense to me either. PUC people get hired by the utility and utility people go to the PUC. Revolving door. Works well for them. I guess people in power want to keep their power (no pun intended.

So what does it mean for people with PV? Batteries and go 100% "off-grid"? Have excess generation every month of the year?
The utility bill has 2 sections. It seems that if you use more than you generate, you have to pay the community generation charge. The NEM part you can pay at the end of the year. So you mean that you don't have to pay the community generation part either til the end of the year?

Lat year, we had a credit at the end of the year. That credit was then used to off set the community charges in the following year. I guess I still don't get it.

 

[zanydroid]

So its not just me then. Can't make heads or tails of it. What you said make no sense to me wither. PUC people get hired by the utility and utility people go to the PUC. Revolving door. Works well for them. I guess people in power want to keep their power (no pun intended.

So what does it mean for people with PV? Batteries and go 100% "off-grid"?

That's an overly extreme conclusion to arrive at except as a political protest.

If you're on NEM1/2 you should absolutely still be on-grid, modulo exactly what is optimal between your CCA and PG&E.

If you're on NEM3 then you need a battery based on how that was designed.

EDIT: You also don't have much options if you're on NEM1/2 wrt reconfiguring your system besides adding storage because of losing grandfather status. Unless you want to get into operating both an on-grid system and an off-grid system, and have the space/systems maintenance skills to do so. Which can be good enough reason to fail out investigating this angle because that's a lot of work.

Well you can go back to PG&E and not have to worry about CCA, and get advice from a larger population of customers. Nothing stopping you other than the transition rules (to discourage people from transitioning back and forth all the time) that could get you heated. You can create a post and there's probably folks here that know about the rules (I know I talked about them with one forum member recently)

 

[Nobodybusiness]

I am in So Cal and my power was transferred to a community power supplier while SDG&E operates the infrastructure. ALL OF THE PROMISED BENEFITS WERE STRIPPED OUT BY THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE AND THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION.
This was done in the form of a newly created charge authority granted to the utilities. It is called the PCIA and may appear on your monthly bill as a line item.
"Power Charge Indifference Adjustment (PCIA) comprises the above market cost of the Utility's
existing procurement portfolio and is calculated annually. This is a cost that is ultimately borne by
all customers. The PCIA bill line item ensures that customers pay their share of generation costs
already contracted to serve them."

I have reviewed the documents. I have advanced college degrees. The formulas and concepts used to create these charges are beyond the comprehension of normal mortals. In a word, it is diabolical. It presumes your new community supplier will run out of electricity supply and so your utility company will come to the rescue with power they purchased on your behalf in advance of whether you need it or not. So by adding this amount to your monthly charges, your community power supply savings are minimal at best.

The consumer is screwed.

Sounds about right.

 

[Kuma]

Just spoke with Pioneer and PGE about NEM 2. Pioneer wrote the below explanation between the two. ymmv I will say that Pioneer was able to articulate both Pioneer and PGE NEM2 programs. And even provided rate sheets for comparison. One thing I need to follow up with Proneer is the monthly surplus carry over that is a dollar value. I'm thinking that when their is an increase rate charge in kwh that roll over dollar value buys less kwh's compared to the prior month(s). In other words, it loses value, kinda like inflation. Where PGE uses kwh's so price increases do not change the value of the over compensation value. Not sure if Im thinking correctly... ugh...


"Here is a summary of our NEM program: Pioneer reconciles energy generation monthly, meaning we do not have an annual true-up. If your system generates more than you use, then you would receive a NEM generation credit on your bill. If your system generates more than you use again the next month, then that is added to the credit balance. If you use more than your system generates, then we will apply the credits to cover the charges. If you have a month where you use more than you generate and you do not have enough credits on hand to cover the charges, that is when you would see a bill from Pioneer. PG&E will continue to bill for Transmission & Delivery annually.


In the March/April billing cycle, Pioneer performs a “cash out” for customers that are Net Surplus Generators. We look back over the past 12 months and if your total generation is greater than the total usage, we take those extra kWh and multiply them by our net surplus compensation rate (NSC). Pioneer’s net surplus compensation rate is indexed to PG&E, and we add a half-cent more. If the dollar value is greater than $25, we will send you a check. If it is less than $25, it is placed on the bill as a credit for the next year. PG&E does not send checks to surplus generators after their true-up, they only apply a credit to your account."


Just like PG&E, we then reset the retail credits to zero and begin again for the next 12 months. This is also why we set the cash out month in the March/April billing cycle because most people really begin building credits in the spring and this gives you the greatest opportunity to build the credits you might need to carry you through the winter."

 

[zanydroid]

Thanks for sharing that. There is a potential issue here if you install a system in fall or winter and have heat, and are already on the CCA. Since you will definitely be negative balance.

Also April every year has a potential to be negative if it’s a cold year. It’s not clear to me how they handle the accumulated credit that is below 12 month usage. Seems like that should be compensated at retail and not NSC (“wholesale”, unsubsidized).

 

[zanydroid]

PCIA is independent of the true-up method.

To clarify PCIA is the formula that caps the amount a CCA can undercut an IOU on generation fee.

So it is independent of solar.

PCIA most likely means there are hard limits on how much your CCA can buffer you from the IOU’s adoption of aggressive TOU rates that hose your net metering subsidy

I believe CCAs are allowed to be more generous than IOU on credits. I haven’t confirmed but I believe PCE pays more than NSC for surplus, which is rare among CCAs. Dunno what supports this largesse

FWIW monthly settlement is supposed to be nicer for some people than annual true up since it smooths out the monthly cashflow calculations. And plenty of NEM1/2 customers complain on Nextdoor every year at annual true up ?

 

[Kuma]

Thanks for sharing that. There is a potential issue here if you install a system in fall or winter and have heat, and are already on the CCA. Since you will definitely be negative balance.

Also April every year has a potential to be negative if it’s a cold year. It’s not clear to me how they handle the accumulated credit that is below 12 month usage. Seems like that should be compensated at retail and not NSC (“wholesale”, unsubsidized).

Again, Im guessing, I think typically the first winter would be an issue if system is not installed before ~summer. It may not be an issue for us since we are not here dec - feb and burn wood for heat. Although installed just three weeks ago the pv is is over sized so to speak, over producing, and it "may be" enough to provide necessary compensation through April. Not sure and have not decided to stay with Pioneer or drop them for PGE with PGE kwh surplus compensation plan.

I emailed Pioneer about the monthly compensation dollar losing value with rate increases. Will share when I hear from them

 

[Calvin98]

Pioneer reconciles energy generation monthly, meaning we do not have an annual true-up. If your system generates more than you use, then you would receive a NEM generation credit on your bill. If your system generates more than you use again the next month, then that is added to the credit balance. If you use more than your system generates, then we will apply the credits to cover the charges. If you have a month where you use more than you generate and you do not have enough credits on hand to cover the charges, that is when you would see a bill from Pioneer. PG&E will continue to bill for Transmission & Delivery annually.


In the March/April billing cycle, Pioneer performs a “cash out” for customers that are Net Surplus Generators. We look back over the past 12 months and if your total generation is greater than the total usage, we take those extra kWh and multiply them by our net surplus compensation rate (NSC). Pioneer’s net surplus compensation rate is indexed to PG&E, and we add a half-cent more. If the dollar value is greater than $25, we will send you a check. If it is less than $25, it is placed on the bill as a credit for the next year. PG&E does not send checks to surplus generators after their true-up, they only apply a credit to your account."

So if you use more than you generate at the start of your true-up, you have to pay for whatever you use? This means that you have to generate more at the start and then you can get credits for the coming months? I.e. the strategy then is to have credits at the end of your true-up period and then if you use more than you generate you can use that credit to off set the charge? Why can you not carry a debit over from the 1st month? Why can you only carry credits over from the previous true-up or credits for the first month? Still pretty confusing

Just like PG&E, we then reset the retail credits to zero and begin again for the next 12 months. This is also why we set the cash out month in the March/April billing cycle because most people really begin building credits in the spring and this gives you the greatest opportunity to build the credits you might need to carry you through the winter."

March/April is for everybody regardless to true-up month?

 

[zanydroid]

March/April is for everybody regardless to true-up month?

Yes this is common to several CCAs

 

[zanydroid]

For the month to month issue I would recommend posting on r/solar and asking for an example bill from either the specific CCA or as a backup another CCA with monthly settlement.

And also contacting your CCA for an explainer with examples. There is unfortunately an issue where a lot of CCAs barely understand their own rules.

With Mar/April fixed annual true up there isn’t much you can do to game the system other than freezing / turning down the thermostat in April or switching to the IOU

EDIT: that is assuming you will get credited with NSC for that amount that you could have used in April, vs TOU retail rate. If it is the latter then the only issue would be what happens to you on the very first year. And this is a documented issue with switching to CCA from IOU. You likely want to do it before summer. * I don’t know the special transition tariff so you should create a thread somewhere asking about that specifically.

EDIT2: and note you probably will only get screwed for 1-2 years if you pick wrong between CCA and IOU, so it’s not the end of the world

 

[Kuma]

So if you use more than you generate at the start of your true-up, you have to pay for whatever you use? This means that you have to generate more at the start and then you can get credits for the coming months? I.e. the strategy then is to have credits at the end of your true-up period and then if you use more than you generate you can use that credit to off set the charge? Why can you not carry a debit over from the 1st month? Why can you only carry credits over from the previous true-up or credits for the first month? Still pretty confusing

Yes, debt is not carried over. You have to pay for what you consume minus what you generate for the first month. And 2nd... if your PV is only offsetting the total cost/kwh used. Which is not uncommon. Not everyone produces 100% of total consumption. If you generate more during the period, before Trueup, then you get credit for the future months.

March/April is for everybody regardless to true-up month?

For Pioneer, everyone march/april. PGE Trueup is the annual date of PTO.

 

[Kuma]

For the month to month issue I would recommend posting on r/solar and asking for an example bill from either the specific CCA or as a backup another CCA with monthly settlement.

And also contacting your CCA for an explainer with examples. There is unfortunately an issue where a lot of CCAs barely understand their own rules.

With Mar/April fixed annual true up there isn’t much you can do to game the system other than freezing / turning down the thermostat in April or switching to the IOU

EDIT: that is assuming you will get credited with NSC for that amount that you could have used in April, vs TOU retail rate. If it is the latter then the only issue would be what happens to you on the very first year. And this is a documented issue with switching to CCA from IOU. You likely want to do it before summer. * I don’t know the special transition tariff so you should create a thread somewhere asking about that specifically.

EDIT2: and note you probably will only get screwed for 1-2 years if you pick wrong between CCA and IOU, so it’s not the end of the world

I too think the advantages and disadvantage are minimal when choosing between the two. Pioneer does pay $.005 more for NSC. lol

 

[Calvin98]

Yes, debt is not carried over. You have to pay for what you consume minus what you generate for the first month. And 2nd... if your PV is only offsetting the total cost/kwh used. Which is not uncommon. Not everyone produces 100% of total consumption. If you generate more during the period, before Trueup, then you get credit for the future months.

For Pioneer, everyone march/april. PGE Trueup is the annual date of PTO.

So then if the strategy (if you can do it) is to have a credit at the end of the PTO in the True-up bill. Then that credit will be used to off-set the first CCA bill if you consume more than you produce. Timing can be difficult if the true-up happens in the Fall when you might be producing less anyway. You will probably start off having to pay CCA bills for a few months, then get a CCA true-up in April and have credits in the summer.

Another question - can you carry over CCA credits from one PTO true-up bill to the next? Say the PTO true-up is in August and CCA true-up is in April, can you carry over CCA credits over and through the August PTO true-up over to the following April? and If that is the case, it all might even out in the following year.

Does all this complexity go away if you go back to PGE? or is the same thing, but costs more?

This sounds like there is almost no more net metering at all. Or maybe everyone in a CCA gets 2 different net metering "accounts" with true-ups that are fixed (April) for the CCS's and when ever you started your system for the utility. So you have to plan for 2 different true-ups and different times of the year.

You can't make this any more complicated than it is.

 

[Kuma]

So then if the strategy (if you can do it) is to have a credit at the end of the PTO in the True-up bill. Then that credit will be used to off-set the first CCA bill if you consume more than you produce. Timing can be difficult if the true-up happens in the Fall when you might be producing less anyway. You will probably start off having to pay CCA bills for a few months, then get a CCA true-up in April and have credits in the summer.

Another question - can you carry over CCA credits from one PTO true-up bill to the next? Say the PTO true-up is in August and CCA true-up is in April, can you carry over CCA credits over and throught the August PTO true-up over to the following April? and If that is the case, it all might even out in the following year.

You can't make this any more complicated than it is.

I too am learning this and do not want to mislead you. Its best to call the utilities. I too thought about making changes trying to leverage the plans to my advantage but dont think its worth it in my situation. Think of the long game and if your pv system is saving you money for 20+ years.

 

[Calvin98]

Sure, just asking and trying to figure it out.

 

[zanydroid]

I don't really understand the gaming scenarios you had in mind, but one key thing that sticks out is if you transition early and when PG&E is at a credit balance, you are screwing yourself hard because there is a good chance you get credited at NSC and not retail rates.

This sounds like there is almost no more net metering at all. Or maybe everyone in a CCA gets 2 different net metering "accounts" with true-ups that are fixed (April) for the CCS's and when ever you started your system for the utility. So you have to plan for 2 different true-ups and different times of the year.

You do get two accounts. The spreadsheet gore on the single bill, which you get from PG&E, gets worse. One is PG&E on your current true up based on PTO date, and is 12 months. The other is CCA and based on CCA rules. You should only need to plan for the PG&E true-up since that one defers all reconciliation to the end, so that could be a big CHARGE or a tiny CREDIT. For the CCA I believe it is mostly going to be either a tiny credit (worst interpretation of the rules given the ambiguity) or a decent credit (best interpretation of the rules). I don't think a credit surprise at 12 months is really something to plan for.

Almost no more net metering -- no, it is far from that... I'm not sure why you're concluding there is no Net Metering from the info provided so far and are getting unnecessarily depressed about this as a result...

EDIT: I recommend going back and rereading the rules and assuming that the date is May instead of April. In that case for any normally sized system you will build up a healthy credit balance on every month into maybe October. And then start drawing it down for the rest of the year. In NEM3 this is impossible by design without a massively sized system (and it will get worse when NEM3's transition rates drop down to very close to NSC, it's starting in 2023 from a multiplier above that (yet still below retail) and dropping down from there)

The only month where that might happen is the shoulder season heating month because of the possibility that you will always be negative that month (in the edge case I don't understand). The only talk of NSC compensation. Which is awful, in October (I just looked it up) it's $0.07/kWh vs $0.41/kWh for TOU off-peak. The only talk of NSC coming in is at the Year+1 Mar/Apr reconciliation where they compute Generated - Consumed and convert all credits above that line to NSC.

https://www.pge.com/pge_global/common/pdfs/solar-and-vehicles/green-energy-incentives/AB920_RateTable.pdf

 

[glandpuck]

This entire thread is a classic example of what is wrong with government and how the utility companies have been successful at creating a bill that is more complex and filled with invented terms and associated charges and times of use and all sorts of taxes and fees that they have displaced hospitals as the number one source of consumer billing headaches. Frankly, its just awful to get an electric bill and even read this thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just buy your kWh and delivery fees on the auction open market at competitive prices and just pay for what you need? No one would be arguing that you need to help pay for electricity for renters, poor persons, native Americans and every other identified group who have no inkling that some self interest group is lobbying on their behalf to pay for their electric use at your expense.

 

[zanydroid]

I'm not sure how you would be able to achieve delivery (T&D) on an open market when the distribution part is a strong natural monopoly and the transmission part is considered complex enough in most deregulation schemes to require a central arbiter to remain.

And I'm not sure it's sustainable for every customer to understand how to hedge against surges on spot prices. Or rather, what you'll end up with is some middleperson provider that the savvy customers would sign up for. And then the unsavvy customers will get a rude awakening on how they should have used that hedging.

Defining equitability and fairness is way above my pay grade and goes outside a mathy analysis of any sort so I'm not going to touch that part.

EDIT: also the free market scheme you would propose would certainly not be able to justify the NEM2 subsidy that you are taking advantage of.

 

[Kuma]

Below is Pioneers response regarding rate increase(s) and the surplus credit/dollars rolled over month to month. Pioneer rate increase every January is about the worst time for consumer. Customer accrues credit for months and when the least pv is generated in Jan, and when the accrued credit is most needed, the kwh price increases making the value of the credits accumulated for several months worth less. If the rate increase is 5% in Jan, the dollars accrued for many months just took a 5% hit. PGE credits are kwh's making them immune to rate increases.

Pioneer:
charges less per kwh
Pays $.005 (1/2 cent) more then PGE for surplus credit.
Rate increase in Jan. Prior surplus credits are devalued.

PGE:
Charges more per kwh
Two or more annual rate increases
Surplus credits accrued in kwh making credits value remain constant despite rate increases


I'm not sure how PGE applies surplus credits. I assume credits are first applied to the lower, non-peak, first. Then the remaining surplus to peak rates. If ample credits are available to pay for total annual usage than non issue. If the amount of credits only covers part of the Trueup kwhs owed, then Peak Trueup charges would be applied last. This is a guess but most likely correct as it favors PGE, not the consumer.


If my understanding is incorrect, please share your thoughts.


"Pioneer only does one rate adjustment a year, which takes place in January. This means the value of that credit will remain stable for quite a long time.

On the other hand, PG&E does rate adjustments multiple times a year. I would argue that Pioneers credits retain their value for longer than PG&E credits do."

This entire thread is a classic example of what is wrong with government and how the utility companies have been successful at creating a bill that is more complex and filled with invented terms and associated charges and times of use and all sorts of taxes and fees that they have displaced hospitals as the number one source of consumer billing headaches. Frankly, its just awful to get an electric bill and even read this thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just buy your kWh and delivery fees on the auction open market at competitive prices and just pay for what you need? No one would be arguing that you need to help pay for electricity for renters, poor persons, native Americans and every other identified group who have no inkling that some self interest group is lobbying on their behalf to pay for their electric use at your expense.

Please dont add to the frustration of California Dreamin'. lol

 

[zanydroid]

Did they answer what happens to the deficit in the first month of each year?

Ah, so PG&E accrues credits in kWh accounting for peak vs off-peak? I thought it was marked to dollars? (I could be wrong; there are some advantages to marking to dollar, EG you can export most of your solar at summer peak which is very lucrative if it's banked in dollar terms instead of kWh terms, since this means that 1kWh pushed out in the summer is worth 1.5kWh pulled in in the winter). And when they're converting between peak and off-peak they do have to convert to dollars.

Unfortunately I have always been on CCA so I don't have PG&E bills to check (well I do, but for T&D portion only). Some people have posted PG&E bills on various forums so there is that...

 

[Kuma]

Did they answer what happens to the deficit in the first month of each year?

Not sure what you mean. If Im understanding you, the consumer has to pay for usage. If credit is available it is applied. Otherwise, pay entire bill.

And, wouldnt the consumer have 30 days to generate credit prior to first billing?

Ah, so PG&E accrues credits in kWh accounting for peak vs off-peak? I thought it was marked to dollars? (I could be wrong; there are some advantages to marking to dollar, EG you can export most of your solar at summer peak which is very lucrative if it's banked in dollar terms instead of kWh terms, since this means that 1kWh pushed out in the summer is worth 1.5kWh pulled in in the winter). And when they're converting between peak and off-peak they do have to convert to dollars.

PGE accrues credit in kwhs (Pioneer credit is in dollars). PGE does not differentiate peak or off peak khw accept at billing. PGE does pay in dollars at the Trueup if pv over generated compared to consumption. Dont know if the PGE pays in both non peak and peak rates... Confusing as fudge. hahaha My guess is, when credit is applied at Trueup non peak is paid down first.

Unfortunately I have always been on CCA so I don't have PG&E bills to check (well I do, but for T&D portion only). Some people have posted PG&E bills on various forums so there is that...