How do Calif. Community Enegery Electric Generation Charges work with solar PV?

[glandpuck]

This entire thread is a classic example of what is wrong with government and how the utility companies have been successful at creating a bill that is more complex and filled with invented terms and associated charges and times of use and all sorts of taxes and fees that they have displaced hospitals as the number one source of consumer billing headaches. Frankly, its just awful to get an electric bill and even read this thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just buy your kWh and delivery fees on the auction open market at competitive prices and just pay for what you need? No one would be arguing that you need to help pay for electricity for renters, poor persons, native Americans and every other identified group who have no inkling that some self interest group is lobbying on their behalf to pay for their electric use at your expense.

 

[zanydroid]

I'm not sure how you would be able to achieve delivery (T&D) on an open market when the distribution part is a strong natural monopoly and the transmission part is considered complex enough in most deregulation schemes to require a central arbiter to remain.

And I'm not sure it's sustainable for every customer to understand how to hedge against surges on spot prices. Or rather, what you'll end up with is some middleperson provider that the savvy customers would sign up for. And then the unsavvy customers will get a rude awakening on how they should have used that hedging.

Defining equitability and fairness is way above my pay grade and goes outside a mathy analysis of any sort so I'm not going to touch that part.

EDIT: also the free market scheme you would propose would certainly not be able to justify the NEM2 subsidy that you are taking advantage of.

 

[Kuma]

Below is Pioneers response regarding rate increase(s) and the surplus credit/dollars rolled over month to month. Pioneer rate increase every January is about the worst time for consumer. Customer accrues credit for months and when the least pv is generated in Jan, and when the accrued credit is most needed, the kwh price increases making the value of the credits accumulated for several months worth less. If the rate increase is 5% in Jan, the dollars accrued for many months just took a 5% hit. PGE credits are kwh's making them immune to rate increases.

Pioneer:
charges less per kwh
Pays $.005 (1/2 cent) more then PGE for surplus credit.
Rate increase in Jan. Prior surplus credits are devalued.

PGE:
Charges more per kwh
Two or more annual rate increases
Surplus credits accrued in kwh making credits value remain constant despite rate increases


I'm not sure how PGE applies surplus credits. I assume credits are first applied to the lower, non-peak, first. Then the remaining surplus to peak rates. If ample credits are available to pay for total annual usage than non issue. If the amount of credits only covers part of the Trueup kwhs owed, then Peak Trueup charges would be applied last. This is a guess but most likely correct as it favors PGE, not the consumer.


If my understanding is incorrect, please share your thoughts.


"Pioneer only does one rate adjustment a year, which takes place in January. This means the value of that credit will remain stable for quite a long time.

On the other hand, PG&E does rate adjustments multiple times a year. I would argue that Pioneers credits retain their value for longer than PG&E credits do."

This entire thread is a classic example of what is wrong with government and how the utility companies have been successful at creating a bill that is more complex and filled with invented terms and associated charges and times of use and all sorts of taxes and fees that they have displaced hospitals as the number one source of consumer billing headaches. Frankly, its just awful to get an electric bill and even read this thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just buy your kWh and delivery fees on the auction open market at competitive prices and just pay for what you need? No one would be arguing that you need to help pay for electricity for renters, poor persons, native Americans and every other identified group who have no inkling that some self interest group is lobbying on their behalf to pay for their electric use at your expense.

Please dont add to the frustration of California Dreamin'. lol

 

[zanydroid]

Did they answer what happens to the deficit in the first month of each year?

Ah, so PG&E accrues credits in kWh accounting for peak vs off-peak? I thought it was marked to dollars? (I could be wrong; there are some advantages to marking to dollar, EG you can export most of your solar at summer peak which is very lucrative if it's banked in dollar terms instead of kWh terms, since this means that 1kWh pushed out in the summer is worth 1.5kWh pulled in in the winter). And when they're converting between peak and off-peak they do have to convert to dollars.

Unfortunately I have always been on CCA so I don't have PG&E bills to check (well I do, but for T&D portion only). Some people have posted PG&E bills on various forums so there is that...

 

[Kuma]

Did they answer what happens to the deficit in the first month of each year?

Not sure what you mean. If Im understanding you, the consumer has to pay for usage. If credit is available it is applied. Otherwise, pay entire bill.

And, wouldnt the consumer have 30 days to generate credit prior to first billing?

Ah, so PG&E accrues credits in kWh accounting for peak vs off-peak? I thought it was marked to dollars? (I could be wrong; there are some advantages to marking to dollar, EG you can export most of your solar at summer peak which is very lucrative if it's banked in dollar terms instead of kWh terms, since this means that 1kWh pushed out in the summer is worth 1.5kWh pulled in in the winter). And when they're converting between peak and off-peak they do have to convert to dollars.

PGE accrues credit in kwhs (Pioneer credit is in dollars). PGE does not differentiate peak or off peak khw accept at billing. PGE does pay in dollars at the Trueup if pv over generated compared to consumption. Dont know if the PGE pays in both non peak and peak rates... Confusing as fudge. hahaha My guess is, when credit is applied at Trueup non peak is paid down first.

Unfortunately I have always been on CCA so I don't have PG&E bills to check (well I do, but for T&D portion only). Some people have posted PG&E bills on various forums so there is that...

 

[Hedges]

Don't want to pay cash to CCA the early months of every cycle, if they do that.

I'm on NEM 1 and elected to stay with PG&E. Here's my bill:



"You only pay cumulative NEM balance at True-Up", which is about March 1st.
Observe I dug a hole in March and didn't fill my way out of it until end of June.

I only pay about $11/month to use them as my battery.

Ah, so PG&E accrues credits in kWh accounting for peak vs off-peak? I thought it was marked to dollars?

PG&E tracks dollar credits and kWh. At true-up we are billed for dollars if there is a net amount owed. We are paid pennies if there is net kWh production. I suppose both could occur, but I normally leave some dollars credit unused and sometimes do, sometimes don't get paid for kWh. Use to be with Noon - 6:00 PM peak I was getting back more kWh than produced, don't think I do with 4:00 - 9:00 PM peak rates.

 

[zanydroid]

And, wouldnt the consumer have 30 days to generate credit prior to first billing?

In April it might not be enough.

Don't want to pay cash to CCA the early months of every cycle, if they do that.

Yes if you are an annual positive balance and CCA don’t give it back on your first credit month or at annual cash out, and also barely give better than PGE for net surplus, you probably don’t want that. There are certainly unhappy CCA solar customers out there…

PG&E tracks dollar credits and kWh. At true-up we are billed for dollars if there is a net amount owed. We are paid pennies if there is net kWh production.

Pretty sure I assumed it was dollar credits based on how the whole month by month spreadsheet included it (posted on forums)

I think you can readily be surplus in KWh terms but negative in dollar terms with TOU. If they want to be good for you they settle in dollar terms first and only go to KWh surplus calculation if that is positive to figure out how much to decrease your cash out credit

 

[hwy17]

I only pay about $11/month to use them as my battery.

And then from what I've seen you come on here and defend NEM as a reasonable rate structure? They clearly lose money on NEM 1 and 2 customers.

As for the thread, I skimmed so forgive me if this has been settled but Hedges has it right, if you have a high annual solar production offset you want to opt out of the CCA if they do monthly true up. If you have a small system and end up buying a lot of power annually, CCA could make sense. Edge cases will require a 150 page PHD thesis to properly analyze and compare CCA vs. PG&E and all the different TOU structures.

 

[Kuma]

And then from what I've seen you come on here and defend NEM as a reasonable rate structure? They clearly lose money on NEM 1 and 2 customers.

As for the thread, I skimmed so forgive me if this has been settled but Hedges has it right, if you have a high annual solar production offset you want to opt out of the CCA if they do monthly true up. If you have a small system and end up buying a lot of power annually, CCA could make sense. Edge cases will require a 150 page PHD thesis to properly analyze and compare CCA vs. PG&E and all the different TOU structures.

What do you think if the CCA has an annual, not monthly, Trueup and you over produce? I was leaning towards Pioneer CCA until I learned they do a rate increase in January making the surplus dollars accrued prior to Jan less value when applied to paydown monthly charges after Jan. But, their Trueup is in March so that lesser value applies for only a couple months.

 

[Hedges]

And then from what I've seen you come on here and defend NEM as a reasonable rate structure? They clearly lose money on NEM 1 and 2 customers.

True, a 1:1 net metering plan is unfair to the utility and its other customers.

But I think wholesale to NEM customers for power produced during the duck's back (time of peak consumption) is unfair to them. The reason the duck's back is lower than it's head is residential, commercial, utility scale PV supply a larger portion of total consumption at that time. The last kWh delivered might have only cost $0.04 on the market, but the first kWh would have cost $1.00, and PG&E/PUC get away with crediting all of them based on the last kWh.

Similarly, at my March 1st true-up I am credited for surplus annual production (what I delivered in August) according to wholesale on March 1st.

If PG&E sometimes pays $1/kWh for power from a peaker plant, the crediting $0.04 at the same time is unfair to consumer.
If Rooftop GT PV keeps the grid from collapsing, without requiring as much investment by PG&E and power plants, that is worth significant money.

If the government requires new homes to have rooftop PV (at 3x the cost of utility scale) and to then give surplus during the day when they're at work to the utility for a credit below cost, that is unfair to the homeowner.

What is a reasonable cost for PG&E to transport power from my array to the EV chargers at my work across town? Or might that even be a negative number, because the power actually feeds my neighbor's A/C, delaying need for local upgrades, while more robust distribution supplies the site where I work?

I think distributed generation can be part of the mix, with PG&E paid for the distribution they provide.

A far more efficient form of accounting might be to form a company called "Pacific Gas and Electric" which would own hydro, nuclear, fossil fuel, and PV plant as well as distribution. People who wish to invest in power production could purchase stock in the company and receive dividends.

 

[Calvin98]

PGE accrues credit in kwhs (Pioneer credit is in dollars). PGE does not differentiate peak or off peak khw accept at billing. PGE does pay in dollars at the Trueup if pv over generated compared to consumption. Dont know if the PGE pays in both non peak and peak rates... Confusing as fudge. hahaha My guess is, when credit is applied at Trueup non peak is paid down first.

Sort of. They don't actually "pay you in dollars" but they do give you credit that you can use on your bill to pay their fees that are coming in the following months. When we has excess, they credited at $0.05382. Pretty low considering they charge up to $0.50 and more.

BUT that "excess" they credited to us was used to offset the CCA charges in the next and following months. This is sort of why I'm asking the whole question. In the month after the true-up, last year, the credit covered the CCA charges. Oh, and by the way, we and all our neighbors who have solar got put inito the CCA in Sept. last year. Before that the CCA was never an issue on the bill. So fast forward to this year, we did not have excess production, so we had a small bill we had to pay at true-up. So in the next month, we the utility bill had a section in it form the CCA saying we owed sonething. The thing is, we used almost exactly the same amount of power this year as last year, but last year because of the credit, we did not has to pay the CCA part. This year, because we have no credit, we had to pay the CCA fees. So Zanydroid said the CCA has a true-up for everyone in March/April. I am wondering why we have to pay the CCA fee now and can't wait til later when we maybe make more power and off-set it? Credits can be carried forward, but not debits? What is the point of the April CCA true-up then? Then the CCA part is not really net anymore. This is all what I'm trying to figure out and I still don't understand it, but I'm learning more about it.

Before the CCA figuring out if you were positive or negative on the utility bill was much easier. Now it's "confusing as fudge" as you say.

 

[hwy17]

The last kWh delivered might have only cost $0.04 on the market, but the first kWh would have cost $1.00, and PG&E/PUC get away with crediting all of them based on the last kWh.

It's fantastical to put forth imaginary scenarios like that. "What if there was no solar then what would my generation be worth". Ok and if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bike.

And we have a single clearing price on the CAISO market, so if the price is $.04 that's what all generators are getting, the last and the first. Everyone gets paid the marginal rate. With some variation for differences in day ahead contracts, and a few special exemptions for some legacy resources that have been carved out.

I actually think the single clearing price is a problem for the energy market, a peaker plant's flexible supply is worth more than intermittent solar and it should be paid out at a higher rate at the same time that the solar is being paid less, but that's a bigger market debate than what we should stick to here. Right now, on the whole, we have a single clearing price.

 

[hwy17]

the power actually feeds my neighbor's A/C, delaying need for local upgrades

Come on, it does not. PG&E has to feed your neighbors A/C at 7pm in September, and during an eclipse, and on the day that your inverter dies. Your generation alleviates zeeeeero requirement for local upgrades.

 

[Kuma]

Sort of. They don't actually "pay you in dollars" but they do give you credit that you can use on your bill to pay their fees that are coming in the following months. When we has excess, they credited at $0.05382. Pretty low considering they charge up to $0.50 and more.

I believe I said PGE pays in dollars at Trueup. And tracks surplus credits in kwh's. Pioneer CCA tracks surplus in dollars and pays in dollars. I posted the NSC, net surplus compensation rates, per CCA earlier.

BUT that "excess" they credited to us was used to offset the CCA charges in the next and following months. This is sort of why I'm asking the whole question. In the month after the true-up, last year, the credit covered the CCA charges. Oh, and by the way, we and all our neighbors who have solar got put inito the CCA in Sept. last year. Before that the CCA was never an issue on the bill. So fast forward to this year, we did not have excess production, so we had a small bill we had to pay at true-up. So in the next month, we the utility bill had a section in it form the CCA saying we owed sonething. The thing is, we used almost exactly the same amount of power this year as last year, but last year because of the credit, we did not has to pay the CCA part. This year, because we have no credit, we had to pay the CCA fees.

So Zanydroid said the CCA has a true-up for everyone in March/April.

I may have said that, also. Its in the Pioneer CCA email they sent me and posted earlier.

I am wondering why we have to pay the CCA fee now and can't wait til later when we maybe make more power and off-set it? Credits can be carried forward, but not debits?

This is how I understand it. Debits paid at end of month per monthly bill. Credits roll over and are applied subsequent month(s). But if at trueup their is a surplus credit then they pay you. That sort of balances things out.


To be honest, my brain is on over load and I apologize if anything is incorrect.

What is the point of the April CCA true-up then? Then the CCA part is not really net anymore. This is all what I'm trying to figure out and I still don't understand it, but I'm learning more about it.

Before the CCA figuring out if you were positive or negative on the utility bill was much easier. Now it's "confusing as fudge" as you say.

 

[hwy17]

What do you think if the CCA has an annual, not monthly, Trueup and you over produce?

If the overproduction is robust then as far as I'm aware still opt out of the CCA.

 

[Ampster]

If the overproduction is robust then as far as I'm aware still opt out of the CCA

I have had overproduction and have a larger True Up balance with my CCA, Sonoma Clean Power. Fundamentally, most CCA's pay out overproduction at a higher rate than the IOUs at annual True Up. There may be exceptions but the value of CCAs in California is better than with an IOU. I have been following the CCA market since 2015.

 

[Ampster]

PCE pays more than NSC for surplus, which is rare among CCAs. Dunno what supports this largesse

No, most CCAs pay more on surplus at True Up. Lower overhead is what supports that. Technically the IOUs are not supposed to make a profit on the generation they buy in the marketplace and sell. They are allow to add overhead and that is significant. Otherwise how could we have high rates when the wholesale rate is $0.05 per kWh?

 

[Calvin98]

True, a 1:1 net metering plan is unfair to the utility and its other customers.

Don't they take care of that with rates? I.e. peak and off-peak rates? Unless I am misunderstanding, higher cost for power at peak times means people should use less and generate more. Utility wants generation during peak times. Low off-peak rates mean use what you want then. Back when peak was noon to 6pm weekdays and the peak rate was $0.32/kwh and off-peak was $0.08/kwh, that meant that the homeowner should minimize use during peak times and feed in as much solar as possible because the utility wanted it most then. Then after 6pm, for every 1 kwh you put in at peak time and got $0.32 credit for, you could take or 3kwh at $0.08 and be "even." Win/win? Utility gets power when they want it most and you can use more power later when the utility does not care as much. Or am I missing something?

When peak and off-peak rates are more or less the same, pv generation does not matter so much. Better mice lead to better mouse traps which in turn lead to sill better mice and on and on.....

 

[Kuma]

The

I have had overproduction and have a larger True Up balance with my CCA, Sonoma Clean Power. Fundamentally, most CCA's pay out overproduction at a higher rate than the IOUs at annual True Up. There may be exceptions but the value of CCAs in California is better than with an IOU.

Does your CCA have one annual rate increase? Pioneer has one in Jan. The trueup is in march/april. This devalues all surplus credit prior to Jan by the rate increase amount until trueup in march/april. If it were not for this I'd be all all in with the CCA. The rate increase should be in march/april to make things equal. The CCA does pay out $.005, 1/2 cent, more than PGE.

 

[Calvin98]

I believe I said PGE pays in dollars at Trueup. And tracks surplus credits in kwh's. Pioneer CCA tracks surplus in dollars and pays in dollars. I posted the NSC, net surplus compensation rates, per CCA earlier.

This is how I understand it. Debits paid at end of month per monthly bill. Credits roll over and are applied subsequent month(s). But if at trueup their is a surplus credit then they pay you. That sort of balances things out.

To be honest, my brain is on over load and I apologize if anything is incorrect.

I appreciate the conversations - all of them. For us, at trueup we got utility credit in dollars. Those "doolars" were used to off set the CCA "dollars" we owed.

I guess another question is: if the utility true up is out of sync with the CCA true up, would CCA "credit" be carried forward after the utility true-up? Meaning you if you have CCA credit from April to August, you can carry it forward into Sept in utility true-up is at the end of August?

I know this is way more complicated than it needs to be. Just trying to figure out what to do.

"

But if at trueup their is a surplus credit then they pay you

Pay you and in send you a check or you see a credit on the utility bill for use later?