How do Calif. Community Enegery Electric Generation Charges work with solar PV?

[Hedges]

A reasonable fair and free market approach would be to let rooftop PV customers sign up with an entity that would negotiate/bid to deliver power as a block (and localized as the grid might need), controlling inverters to meet what they contracted for. Export could be curtailed, (optionally even locally generated and consumed power for some participants, allowing others without controllable inverters to participate as well.) If the production was throttled at other times, it could charge higher prices for being dispatchable.

 

[hwy17]

You said the market price is the incremental cost of the last kWh. I say it is the incremental cost of the first kWh.

"This single clearing price reflects the price offered into the auction by the marginal supplier"

https://elcon.org/wp-content/uploads/Can-We-Afford-A-Single-Clearing-Price-Electricity-Market.pdf

I think it's an essential function of a single clearing price market that the price is set by the last marginal supplier, not the first. But I'm no economist.

 

[hwy17]

A reasonable fair and free market approach would be to let rooftop PV customers sign up with an entity that would negotiate/bid to deliver power as a block (and localized as the grid might need), controlling inverters to meet what they contracted for.

Imagine that this entity would also have to pay a penalty if they contracted day ahead for power they couldn't deliver due to a weather change.

 

[hwy17]

Duck's back curve doesn't show that because it is a graph of all consumption (which equals all production) less (rooftop?) PV.
Would have collapsed in the afternoon.

Again, I think it's imaginary and irrelevant to say "what if no solar, you should pay me based on that".

 

[Calvin98]

I believe their is only one trueup. Its either PGE or CCA depending on who you choose. Now if a switch is made from pge to cca or cca to pge and their are credits involved Im not sure what happens. Thats the potential situation Im in. I was put on CCA last year but if I choose to go with PGE dont know what happens to my CCA surplus credits.

Pioneer said its a check.

Ok, I never got a check. I got a credit on the utility bill.
Our CCA true-up is in a different month from the utility true-up. April vs August.

 

[Calvin98]

It's definitely net within the same month and with credits carried forward. You can still export in June and draw down the balance in December.

The annual is used to calculate your trailing 12 month net surplus (that wasn't drawn down yet) and decrease the value of surplus kWh down to the lower $ rate. That is your credit carried over into the next year.

Net over the month, ok, but is it net over the year also? Sound like it isn't. You get credits that you can carry over, but if you owe in any month, you have to pay. CCA is April to April?

 

[Calvin98]

In regular billing conditions, $0.0538 is the net surplus rate. Before you trigger net surplus you will get credited back $0.50 (or the price at export time).

So what you saw the first year is some kind of transition rule, so it likely will not apply in later years.

Sounds like this is a new CCA; I do think it's smart to keep an eye on a new CCA to make sure nothing weird is going on. I know people that didn't like what happened after a transition and immediately switched back. Unfortunately since CCA rules are unique and hard to understand, and that wasn't my CCA, I never managed to understand the details.

It's definitely net within the same month and with credits carried forward. You can still export in June and draw down the balance in December.

The annual is used to calculate your trailing 12 month net surplus (that wasn't drawn down yet) and decrease the value of surplus kWh down to the lower $ rate. That is your credit carried over into the next year.

Yes. $0.0538 x kwh extra.
First year - yes, ok can see what happens next year then. i.e. if a CCA credit is "passed through" the utility true-up bill and continues.
Net the same month makes it harder. Then you may want to have excess solar generation every month instead of what it was before - net 0 over the year. i.e. some months produce less, others more and over the year equal.

 

[zanydroid]

Net over the month, ok, but is it net over the year also? Sound like it isn't. You get credits that you can carry over, but if you owe in any month, you have to pay. CCA is April to April?

My mental model is that it's halfway between net over the month and net over the year. It could be very close to net over the whole year depending on the specific edge case handling that is glossed over by the summaries of the rules.

For instance I reread PCE's credit rules and it is definitely net over the whole year since they (by my reading) always compensate for surplus at retail rate. But that is the only CCA out of the 5 or so I looked at that appears to do this, so I suspect whether I misread something.

I don't know which CCA you are in, so let's look at the other "normal" CCA mentioned specifically in this thread - Pioneer:

https://pioneercommunityenergy.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/NEM-Policy.pdf

Page 6 covers the true up:

For customers with Net Consumption, as measured over the preceding twelve (12) calendar monthsof Pioneer service (or the portion of such period during which the customer received service fromPioneer), Pioneer will apply any remaining generation credits against Pioneer charges, until suchcredits are exhausted, resulting in a zero credit balance. Any remaining charge balance shall be due and payable.

This is kind of confusing (actually I think this entire Section 4 is the worst written accounting algorithm out of this whole document) for multiple reasons.
1) It assumes that this will result in a zero credit balance. It is not guaranteed to because of TOU rates
2) It doesn't talk about whether it's the last month charge or all month charges

Like I've been saying... get a copy of the 12 month bill from someone in this situation to reverse engineer the programming actually written into the billing software (which hopefully is less confusing than the English here). I'm not sure calling in will help given that this text is both hard to understand and not specified properly.

EDIT: It would be really annoying if a lot of CCAs copied/pasted this garbage into their NEM rules. What I mean by garbage here is not the policy intent, or whatever, but how many holes there appear to be in the logic.

 

[zanydroid]

Solar Customers - Peninsula Clean Energy

Solar photovoltaics produce clean energy and can reduce your need to buy energy from the electric grid. Which solar program you are on depends on when you

www.peninsulacleanenergy.com

ELECTRIC SCHEDULE NEM - NET ENERGY METERING SERVICE

1. For a customer with TOU Rates:
If the eligible customer-generator is a Net Consumer (as defined above) during any discrete TOU period, the net kWh consumed during such period shall be billed in accordance with the eligible customer-generator’s OAS.If the eligible customer-generator is a Net Generator (as defined above) during any discrete TOU period, net energy production during each TOU period shall be valued in consideration of the eligible customer-generator’s OAS plus a NEM production premium of $0.01/kWh, applying OAS rates to the quantity of energy produced within each TOU period. The value of all net energy production during the billing cycle shall be credited to Peninsula Clean Energy customers as described in Section (c).

4. Peninsula Clean Energy Annual Cash-Out: During the April billing cycle of each year, all current PCE NEM customers with a credit balance of more than $100 will receive a check from Peninsula Clean Energy as compensation for the accrued credit balance; this credit balance will be determined as of the customer’s March billing cycle. Customers will have an equivalent credit removed from their NEM account balance at the time of check issuance. Customers who have a credit balance of less than $100 will have their credits carried over as a bill credit for use in subsequent billing period(s). Customers who close their electric account through PG&E or move outside of the Peninsula Clean Energy service area prior to the April billing cycle of each year are also eligible for the annual Peninsula Clean Energy Cash-Out process.

So unlike the Pioneer document, there is no mention of NSC (I didn't quote the NSC portion but it's on page 6 above the quote, for "Net Generators"). And it's also written much better (granted, it's a lot simpler than the equivalent Pioneer annual cash-out rule so the drafter had an easier time writing it).

 

[Calvin98]

I do appreciate the conversations. Learning about it bit by bit.

 

[zanydroid]

One of the members here actually got on a call with a high level manager at their CCA to try to get an explanation, and still didn't get anywhere...

I'm not really kidding when I say the actual way billing works is probably only fully documented by the computer code for billing, instead of some human readable legal document

 

[Calvin98]

Remember way back when at the beginning of soloar metering when utility bills were like 50 pages and sent in huge 8 1/2 x 11 envelopes? Solar got the same type of bills as industrial customers I think. Remember seeing these from a neighbor. Full of gobbeldy gook that meant nothing to a homeowner. Then they went to the 3-4 page blue bills and I thought I have them figured out. You could easily see if you were ahead or behind. Now there is the CCA stuff in there and I'm back to square one no idea where I am.

So if you are in a CCA what strategy (if any) should you be looking at? Or don't worry about it?

 

[Calvin98]

Utility doesn't want 1:1 net metering at peak times. They want to buy power for pennies and sell it for $0.32 or $0.50
If they can credit backfeed at $0.04 I'm sure they're happy with that.

Can I ask, what is the purpose of time-of-use if not to tell people in terms of money when to use less (generate more) power or use more (generate less) power?

 

[Hedges]

Remember way back when at the beginning of soloar metering when utility bills were like 50 pages and sent in huge 8 1/2 x 11 envelopes? Solar got the same type of bills as industrial customers I think. Remember seeing these from a neighbor. Full of gobbeldy gook that meant nothing to a homeowner. Then they went to the 3-4 page blue bills and I thought I have them figured out.

They went from one with about 20 different line items for each pricing tier (thinks like "nuclear decommissioning", "power indifference" repeated over and over), to one line with total.

All I wanted was usage and pricing for each tier, AND pricing & allowance for tiers I hadn't reached. Just a few lines.

 

[Calvin98]

And the old meters at least told you what your peak generation and total were, now it is just the total. And the bill only says net KHW used or generated, nowhere does it actually say what the meter reading actually is, so it is difficult to tell if the bill is in any way accurate. I guess you have to physically read your meter at the beginning and end fo the cycle and see if it matches the KWH reported on the bill. As to peak/off peak, you will have no idea. You have to trust the utility. Course I could be wrong.

 

[Ampster]

Does your CCA have one annual rate increase?

I have been going to their Community Advisory Committee meetings and know they just approved one for January. I honestly don't pay attention but can look it up if it is important? I get rewards (Grid Savvy program) for reducing power on days the grid is stressed. I also got a subsidy on an EVSE and other incentives for letting them turn it off when grid was stressed. That was a no brainer because I never charge from 4-9 PM.
The other thing I like is their Board and Advisory committee meetings are nearby and if I don't like anything they are doing, I can speak up. Try that at a CPUC meeting 100 miles away with an Agenda that can go on for hours.

 

[Ampster]

If PG&E can buy power from natural gas peaker plants and sell it to power air conditioning, they make money.

There are state incentives to use Peaker Plants as a last resort and I believe the installation of battery packs has made Peakers uncompetitive except in the case of a grid stress like we had yesterday. I don't even know if they had to fire up peakers yesterday, i just got a notice of an event.
I have noticed an indiosycrosy with my Solark that it will sell to the grid from my battery until sometimes as late as 8:45 and only about 600kWs, so I can say I did my part and was paid a rate of $0.53/kWh for that power.

 

[zanydroid]

And the old meters at least told you what your peak generation and total were, now it is just the total. And the bill only says net KHW used or generated, nowhere does it actually say what the meter reading actually is, so it is difficult to tell if the bill is in any way accurate. I guess you have to physically read your meter at the beginning and end fo the cycle and see if it matches the KWH reported on the bill. As to peak/off peak, you will have no idea. You have to trust the utility. Course I could be wrong.

I use my Emporia Vue2 to gather my own data; it has different data gaps from PG&E. Also you can get PG&E data (regardless of CCA enrollment) within a day of use, broken down by peak/off peak.

 

[Ampster]

And the old meters at least told you what your peak generation and total were, now it is just the total.

I don't remember that but I can look at my daily details on PG&E's site. I also have and Emporia and can check if my bill is acurate and compare my daily numbers with what PG&E sees. I do track my peak power because I have added capacity beyond my NEM agreement amount and I am careful to not exceed a certain number. I am glad they do not track my peak power and do not worry about my overall kWhs exported being an issue since I self consume a lot with EV charging from excess solar.

 

[Ampster]

So if you are in a CCA what strategy (if any) should you be looking at?

I look for their incentive programs. In the ten years I have had solar the erosion of benefits has been primarily NBCs and shifting of time periods. Increased rates are a double edge sword depending on whether your can shift load. In my case, eight years ago, I saw the writing on the wall as TOU time periods began shifting to be less favorable for solar so I began investing in batteries and that was the biggest strategic move. Six years ago I moved to a different home with Sonoma Clean Power but my only strategy was to take advantage of their incentives with EV chargers. I also installed a heat pump water heater but did it myself for less than hiring one of SCP approved contractors to do it and get the subsidy. Bottom line is the rate structure is dictated by the IOUs and that should drive anyone's strategy.

 

[zanydroid]

Yeah the PCIA sort of locks the rate structure, so you need to harvest the CCA benefit a different way.

I'm guessing the CCA rebate/subsidy programs are somehow being funded by the excess revenue from PCIA / other revenue stream.

So I wonder how many CCAs allow you to claim those rebates without being a customer (IE only eligibility is being within their service area), and whether that's cool to take if you are eligible even without being a customer.

It's probably embarrassing to ask this kind of question -- "am i allowed to freeload" on a local green energy forum or when calling up their customer support...

 

[Calvin98]

The grid came very close to collapse or shutdowns this past summer.

How can you find out about this? I think I've seen some public messages to reduce consumption before on the radio. Anything PV people should do to help out in those times?

 

[zanydroid]

How can you find out about this? I think I've seen some public messages to reduce consumption before on the radio. Anything PV people should do to help out in those times?

I think the CALISO has some website you can look at, and the governor has been spamming out those alerts via the state emergency mechanisms.

The most common time for the collapse is probably between 4-8PM when solar output is dipping and it's still really hot / getting hotter. Grid support batteries can help. Also the collapse isn't necessarily a system-wide thing, it's probably in specific parts of transmission. Strategically banking storage on the appropriate side of known bottlenecks would probably help. Part of the whole smart grid thing.

There was an article out last week about a Northeast power company that, instead of shoveling money into T&D upgrades/maintenance, wanted to instead pay for batteries to install at customers' houses, and use that to get resilience. In that case I think it's to give those houses/cities a few days of power to bridge over until the grid is repaired. The batteries are partly under the control of the power company.

With more smart grid hardware they could graduate to allowing the grid to operate as more flexible set of islands. Right now a lot of these batteries only provide emergency power to one customer.

 

[Calvin98]

Yes, I saw that.

"The Zero Outages Initiative would also provide residential batteries to customers in remote locations first and then roll out energy storage to all customers by 2030. GMP already offers a home battery program in which customers can lease Tesla Powerwalls and other brands for $55 a month. Everyone wins – the customer then has backup power, and when it isn’t needed, power feeds back into the grid.

This US utility wants to give all of its customers battery storage by 2030

Vermont's largest utility, Green Mountain Power, wants to install battery storage for all 270,000 of its customers by 2030.

electrek.co

Small Vermont utility quietly builds fleet of 4,000 Tesla Powerwalls

Green Mountain Power (GMP), a Vermont electric utility, has quietly built a fleet of 4,000 Tesla Powerwalls, and it is saving...

electrek.co

You can sign up for flex alerts

California ISO - Subscriptions and notifications

 

[Ampster]

Yeah the PCIA sort of locks the rate structure, so you need to harvest the CCA benefit a different way.

The PCIA was supposed to sunset because it was supposed to compensate the IOUs for the loss of revenue when a CCA took over the generation portion of the bill. It was based on the expense the IOUs had from long contracts they entered into at the request of the regulators. I think that request may have gone back to the post Enron days. Today even the CCAs have to cover themselves with long term contracts but wholesale rates have come down in fifteen years and when an IOU loses generation revenue to a CCA they argued for the PCIA fee as a compensation.

I'm guessing the CCA rebate/subsidy programs are somehow being funded by the excess revenue from PCIA / other revenue stream.

No, the CCA does not get any revenue from the PCIA fee. It goes entirely to the IOUs.