If ground deploying in uk weather is it possible to have enough panels to heat and cook through winter with solar alone?

[Warpspeed]

I am talking about directing all the power to those two things for those shortest 2-3 months, or near enough.

For a single person is it possible if there is a whole field available to deploy panels? A large part of that would be for vegetable production but I wonder if with enough panels they could cover for cooking and heating in the winter months.

I think once I have room, as in land, then I could do without heating at all maybe as I would then have storage space to just wear as many layers as required and stash when not using whereas living in the van the largest limitation has been space.

For condensation I found fans/ventilation really effective and they take hardly any juice. So keep self warm with layers and keep condensation at bay with adequate airflow.

So then that just leaves cooking a couple of hours a day.

Possible ?
Yes, almost anything is possible with enough money poured into it.
Economic probably not.

If you are prepared to spend a fortune on both solar panels and batteries, a well engineered system could be made to work.

The problem is that on totally grey cloudy days you get almost nothing from solar.
If you install ten times as many solar panels, you get ten times almost nothing, which is still almost nothing, so that is not the answer.

Its possible to install a very expensive battery that might cost thousands or tens of thousands of pounds to last over a few totally cloudy days, but its just not really practical either.

You can strike a compromise with a lot of solar, and a large battery, plus a petrol or diesel generator to get you through the worst times.

But its always more efficient to generate raw heat directly from burning something, rather than electrically.
So solar is great for electrical power, but for heating and cooking, burning, wood, coal, oil, or propane, will very likely be both more efficient and economic in a cold cloudy climate, but you need to do an in depth analysis of energy consumption versus solar to reach some kind of solution..

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

The best thing is to make a 12/48volt house systeem.
A lot of stuff run directe from DC.
A lot of make for DC is more efficient to use.
Its only more you have pay for that stuf.

Alles in huis op 12 Volt

Installatie en verkoop van gelijkstroom systemen en apparatuur. Eén zonnepaneel gekoppeld aan een 12 Volt accu geeft voldoende stroom voor uw verlichting, tv en computer in uw huis. U heeft al 12 Volt in 1 dag!

www.12voltinhuis.nl

And

Alles in huis op 12 Volt

Installatie en verkoop van gelijkstroom systemen en apparatuur. Eén zonnepaneel gekoppeld aan een 12 Volt accu geeft voldoende stroom voor uw verlichting, tv en computer in uw huis. U heeft al 12 Volt in 1 dag!

www.12voltinhuis.nl

Use Google Translate to read it.

A tv on 12volt go today up to 40"
And the new 12/24 volt DP charger go up to 100watt for a laptop.
Things really change a lot today .

 

[12VoltInstalls]

need to do an in depth analysis

Plus a one acre woodlot might not be adequate over time…,

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Possible ?
Yes, almost anything is possible with enough money poured into it.
Economic probably not.

If you are prepared to spend a fortune on both solar panels and batteries, a well engineered system could be made to work.

The problem is that on totally grey cloudy days you get almost nothing from solar.
If you install ten times as many solar panels, you get ten times almost nothing, which is still almost nothing, so that is not the answer.

Its possible to install a very expensive battery that might cost thousands or tens of thousands of pounds to last over a few totally cloudy days, but its just not really practical either.

You can strike a compromise with a lot of solar, and a large battery, plus a petrol or diesel generator to get you through the worst times.

But its always more efficient to generate raw heat directly from burning something, rather than electrically.
So solar is great for electrical power, but for heating and cooking, burning, wood, coal, oil, or propane, will very likely be both more efficient and economic in a cold cloudy climate, but you need to do an in depth analysis of energy consumption versus solar to reach some kind of solution..

@SeaGal has mentioned they can get 800w per day with just 50m2 of panelling. That would be only a few hundred pounds I reckon? 800w would be enough to run a cooker wouldn't it? They can be variable power and I have seen some video before where someone set it as low as 300w.

As I stated earlier I think I could be fine with no heating at all for heating myself so long as I have storage space for extra layers which I will have in abundance with the land compared to my tiny van . Last winter I would just go to bed at 4pm when it got dark and stay in bed until it got light. If I am working on the land I would be fine getting up earlier and then working to keep warm.

Having said that I do remember getting out of bed to piss in minus temperatures was miserable! Wasn't so bad when wearing a layer in bed though.

Will have to see how it goes and get a feel.

No way I would be able to run electric heating through the night though, I get that! Didn't do that even in my van though as not only would it have been costly I was not comfortable leaving it on while sleeping. I can manage with the minor inconvenience of being cold when getting up to pee now and then. It was only really on the exceptionally cold nights it was really an issue which were few and far between,

 

[Warpspeed]

@SeaGal has mentioned they can get 800w per day with just 50m2 of panelling.

I am sure she is correct in her geographic location.

This is where people can be very easily misled by statistical data.
You look up the weather data for your region and it might say you get an average of X watts per day with Y area of panels panels per month.
That AVERAGE means sometimes you get more, sometimes less. Sometimes a whole lot less for days on end.

Its like the monthly average rainfall. Sometimes it rains very heavily (storm) and sometimes it doesn't rain for days.

Not trying to be a miserable wet blanket to your plans, but it might take more panels and more battery storage than you might expect during the worst solar weeks in mid winter. Only way to find out is to actually build and run a system, and see how it performs over at lest one full year.
Then be prepared to upgrade it in whatever manner seems appropriate. That is cost effective too.

That is the best way forward. Start small, and improve it over time with upgrades as you gain more experience with it.
Best results for money spent will probably be a system that works adequately for 95% of the time.
For the other 5% have a back up plan, a way to charge your battery, either grid or generator of some kind.

Having a system powerful enough to work 99.9% of the time will be a lot more expensive.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

I am sure she is correct in her geographic location.

This is where people can be very easily misled by statistical data.
You look up the weather data for your region and it might say you get an average of X watts per day with Y area of panels panels per month.
That AVERAGE means sometimes you get more, sometimes less. Sometimes a whole lot less for days on end.

Its like the monthly average rainfall. Sometimes it rains very heavily (storm) and sometimes it doesn't rain for days.

Not trying to be a miserable wet blanket to your plans, but it might take more panels and more battery storage than you might expect during the worst solar weeks in mid winter. Only way to find out is to actually build and run a system, and see how it performs over at lest one full year.
Then be prepared to upgrade it in whatever manner seems appropriate. That is cost effective too.

That is the best way forward. Start small, and improve it over time with upgrades as you gain more experience with it.
Best results for money spent will probably be a system that works adequately for 95% of the time.
For the other 5% have a back up plan, a way to charge your battery, either grid or generator of some kind.

Having a system powerful enough to work 99.9% of the time will be a lot more expensive.

Yea but she is also in the UK. Of course I would not expect the same as the nevada desert!

Yes will wait and see but it is the sustainability, and cleanness of solar that makes it so attractive to want to go the extra mile. Wood is sustainable sure but takes years to grow back and also not clean energy.

 

[Warpspeed]

I am off grid most of the time, I live in the suburbs, and have a grid connection whenever I require it as last resort backup.

After seven years at this game, If I were starting out totally from scratch today, and planned to be 100% off grid, the way I would do it is first buy a standby generator, a battery, and an inverter. Size the inverter for about double my peak estimated worst case load, and the battery for at least 24 hours of storage. Size the generator to totally recharge the battery in about two hours of running.

Finances permitting, I would add solar, wind, or maybe even hydro to that.
Batteries and solar can easily be upgraded gradually over time.
The inverter and generator are both very expensive items and should be sized such that they are more than sufficient, as a future upgrade of those would be very costly.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

I am off grid most of the time, I live in the suburbs, and have a grid connection whenever I require it as last resort backup.

After seven years at this game, If I were starting out totally from scratch today, and planned to be 100% off grid, the way I would do it is first buy a standby generator, a battery, and an inverter. Size the inverter for about double my peak estimated worst case load, and the battery for at least 24 hours of storage. Size the generator to totally recharge the battery in about two hours of running.

Finances permitting, I would add solar, wind, or maybe even hydro to that.
Batteries and solar can easily be upgraded gradually over time.
The inverter and generator are both very expensive items and should be sized such that they are more than sufficient, as a future upgrade of those would be very costly.

Generator what do you mean a petrol/diesel one or one of those ones that charge from solar with all fancy name like power packs or solar generators. If the former then it isn't off grid is it ? If the latter why not get a decent battery instead as I think those solar generators are just like glorified DIY solar systems but for a huge markup. That is what I read at least when I was first researching my own solar system for my van as I was initially looking into them since my system is so simple but a small DIY setup soon made much more sense.

 

[Warpspeed]

So you get five days of total grey cloud cover, and your battery is at minimum safe voltage and its wet and freezing cold outside........
What are you going to do ?

Only two possible solutions.

Connect up your grid powered battery charger.
Start up your petrol/diesel/propane powered put put generator to recharge your battery.

With a camper van, running a small generator will be far more cost and fuel efficient than running the main engine in the vehicle.

 

[kommando]

Hopefully you have looked at the UK planning rules and noted that your required array is limited in size to no more than 9m2 before planning permission is required.

 

[solarsimon]

Sorry, but you're asking the wrong question & chasing an infeasible dream.
If you put enough PV & batteries in to get you through the dullest winter week, you will have spent tens of thousands on hardware that won't be used for 95% of the year, unless you're charging lots of EVs in summer.
Firstly, establish your estimated consumption per day in short winter days.

I would aim to :

• Cook predominantly with induction hobs
• Have a wood fuelled stove to fall back on. Make sure your wood is dry
• Use a generator or the grid to make up the shortfall in production. You can't avoid this without big lifestyle compromises
• If you're going ambitious then include a heat pump
• Insulate obsessively
• Include MVHR to avoid damp issues
• Heat with a *good* woodburner. Direct feed flue from outside
• Use 48V LiFePO4 batteries
• Include some 48 or 12v DC backup lighting & phone charging

 

[Warpspeed]

Agree with all of the above ^^^
Suggest propane might be a good fallback for cooking, heating, and even lighting in desperate times.

Anything is possible if you pour enough money into it.
But reality is a very hard task master.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

So you get five days of total grey cloud cover, and your battery is at minimum safe voltage and its wet and freezing cold outside........
What are you going to do ?

Only two possible solutions.

Connect up your grid powered battery charger.
Start up your petrol/diesel/propane powered put put generator to recharge your battery.

With a camper van, running a small generator will be far more cost and fuel efficient than running the main engine in the vehicle.

You skip the option to use wood?

I already lived a year in my campervan with using diesel cooker/heater hooked up to 12v and mininal 200w solar on the roof. No generator required.

The van will always be my fallback so just a case of branching out and having an alternative to the van as there is no fallback for the van .

 

[Warpspeed]

Depends on your situation.
I live in the city suburbs, wood is simply not an option for me here.

May not be in a camper van either, depending where you are.
Petrol/diesel/propane is readily available just about anywhere these days.
Its also compact and easily transported and stored, especially in a wet climate.
Every situation is different, it all needs some thinking and research.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Hopefully you have looked at the UK planning rules and noted that your required array is limited in size to no more than 9m2 before planning permission is required.

I knew PP was required at a certain point but I presumed it would be much larger an allowance than that, like a whole field or so.

This certainly puts a dampener on that idea. Don't want to mess with planning if I can help it and wouldn't want to spend thousands on solar setup which would not be legit!

Wood seeming the better choice now!

 

[Suijkerbuijk]

Go wind energie
Uk is the same like the Netherlands.
A lot of wind in the winter.

Here you see some test with the watts it do.

 

[SeaGal]

@SeaGal has mentioned they can get 800w per day with just 50m2 of panelling. That would be only a few hundred pounds I reckon? 800w would be enough to run a cooker wouldn't it? They can be variable power and I have seen some video before where someone set it as low as 300w.

Read the UNITS! I said during the worst day I only generated 800Wh from 6.6kWp of panels. That's not the same as generating 800W.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

Read the UNITS! I said during the worst day I only generated 800Wh from 6.6kWp of panels. That's not the same as generating 800W.

It isn't? I have always assumed they meant the same...

800w x 1 hour = 800wh

 

[ThaiTaffy]

800wh would mean you could run a 33w load constantly over the course of a day so you'd be lucky if that would even keep the inverter powered during winter let alone have any loads.

 

[Gueyog8a7]

800wh would mean you could run a 33w load constantly over the course of a day so you'd be lucky if that would even keep the inverter powered during winter let alone have any loads.

Oh I am rusty with the calculations since I have not done anything with my solar for ages.

 

[HarryN]

Maybe think about using wind instead of solar for places like that.

Does solar thermal / green house work in the UK for keeping things warm enough ?

 

[OM617YOTA]

Just a point of comparison, I live in the PNW of the USA. Very similar climate to the UK, looks like we get 170 days of sun vs. 160 for the UK. I have a 1640w bifacial array, and in the dead of winter last year, it took 3 weeks to harvest 4kwh of power. During the summer and shoulder seasons, this same array easily runs my fridge, freezer, household lights, well pump, and a window AC to keep the solar power bits at a happy temperature.

It's just not practical to run all winter on solar alone in climates such as ours. Get a propane generator to bridge the gap in your solar production, and if you want it as off-grid as possible, work on a wood gassifier to run the generator off fuel you have on hand. Definitely look into micro hydro from the creek, too. Even a few hundred watts 24/7 during the winter will be helpful.

 

[Warpspeed]

Even if you live in the suburbs with both abundant grid power and natural gas as I do, its always wise to have at least one alternative back up plan for heating, cooking, and lighting.
All kinds of possibilities, those small Chinese diesel heaters are not expensive, and I am told they work extremely well with very little fuel.
Even humble candles that cost almost nothing, that you put away years ago and forgot about, might turn out to be useful one day.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

All kinds of possibilities, those small Chinese diesel heaters are not expensive, and I am told they work extremely well with very little fuel

While agreeing with you that they can be a good option… a btu is a btu so there’s a certain cost per potential btu in a gallon of fuel that is what it is.
I have one I’m going to put in my 19’ boat (if I ever finish the project!!) that is receiving a custom downeast style cabin for cold weather fishing. At 30kbtu it might be too much.

What makes them seem efficient is the upfront cost is low and it’s pretty hard to burn a lot of fuel if it doesn’t have the btu output to burn a lot of fuel.

Not arguing- I like the things. Just quantifying.
In something over 400SF I’d go wood or pellets. Or maybe even coal; preferring wood or pellets.

 

[Quattrohead]

If I were starting out totally from scratch today, and planned to be 100% off grid, the way I would do it is first buy a standby generator, a battery, and an inverter.

A generator should be the last thing on the list, panels first.