I'm new here.

[JeremyG]

Hello.

I'm new here.

My name is Jeremy.
I live near Toronto Ontario, Canada.
My wife and I purchased our first home in 2014.
9 years later, there are now 5 of us.
I've been enjoying learning about VAN LIFE and TINY HOMES.
Most of these individuals use solar.
So, I thought I'd look into it.
I stared with a basic set up.
1x 100watt panel from the hardware store.
1 deep cycle battery (I bought the most expensive one they had, at $300. Dude claimed I'd get 3 hours out of it. He must have meant powering a lamp or something).
1x 2000watt power inverter.

I kept this setup for about a month, but was disappointed the solar remote display would always display volts in the 10.9-11.5 zone.
I couldn't even run a hot plate with it.
I ended up finding a guy online selling 230 watt panels.
I bought 1 off him as a test.
So, having 330 watts, plus more sun, as we enter spring has helped the battery charge up to 14.5v.
I've since purchased 2 more panels, with plans on buying 2 more in a couple months.
I'm now at 800watts.
We've run the hot plate a bunch of times.
A blender. A microwave and the washing machine.
I charge most of my devices with it.
Trying to rely on the grid less and less.

What I'm looking for now is, is there a device which would tell me how many Watts the system is pulling in?
So, on a cloudy day vs sunny day, I'll be able to measure how many Watts are coming in?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

 

[octal_ip]

What I'm looking for now is, is there a device which would tell me how many Watts the system is pulling in?
So, on a cloudy day vs sunny day, I'll be able to measure how many Watts are coming in?

This would be a fundamental feature of any good solar charge controller. What are you using at the moment?

 

[JeremyG]

This would be a fundamental feature of any good solar charge controller. What are you using at the moment?

Hello octal_ip
Thanks for responding.

I have the charge controller, in the basement.
It's very basic. It's got 2 menu buttons, which was difficult to figure out (the instruction booklet wasn't helpful at all).
It's got the solar diagram, the panel diagram, the lightbulb diagram, with animated arrows to confirm it's working.

It looks similar to this.

It doesn't show the incoming wattage.

We've also set up an outlet in the kitchen.
We cut a small rectangle, in the kitchen wall. We installed an outlet with a junction box etc. We fed the wires down to the basement, where the battery and inverter is. We plugged the outlet into the inverter. We have a (phone cord powered) remote, also in the wall, beside the outlet.
So, if we're in the kitchen, we can press a little button to turn the inverter on (thus activating the outlet). It shows the battery levels + the voltage.

 

[littleharbor2]

You have a conflict in your solar input. The 100 watt 12 volt panel is mismatched with the 230 watt panel. You are losing potential charging power by using higher voltage panels to power a 12 volt system. Also you are asking a lot from a single battery. If you get more of the 230 watt panels you really should get a real MPPT controller to convert your higher voltage panel's output to a 12 volt charging voltage range. Save the 12 volt panel to use with that bottom of the barrel CC.
You really need more battery to do the things you are doing.

 

[Supervstech]

I will second the need for a true MPPT charge controller.
800W of solar could be charging your batteries with nearly 80A, the most that controller will be getting is around 20.
You could buy any number of energy meters, a shunt type is best, shoot for a 500A or better shunt, so it can handle your inverter output as well as the solar input.
I like the victron smart shunt, but there are far less expensive models.
I also agree you need more battery to fully utilize the solar you have now.

 

[JeremyG]

I will second the need for a true MPPT charge controller.
800W of solar could be charging your batteries with nearly 80A, the most that controller will be getting is around 20.
You could buy any number of energy meters, a shunt type is best, shoot for a 500A or better shunt, so it can handle your inverter output as well as the solar input.
I like the victron smart shunt, but there are far less expensive models.
I also agree you need more battery to fully utilize the solar you have now.

Hello supervstech

I'll look into the MPPT charge controller.
That makes complete sense to me.
The solar controller I'm currently using came with the 100watt panel.
It makes sense to upgrade that.

The "bus bar/wiring terminal" I'm using looks similar to the picture attached.

When I had 1x 100watt + 1x230 watt panel plugged in together, it charged pretty slowly, even on the sunny day.
Adding the 2x extra 230 panels (now totalling 800watts), adding the bus bar, the system charges much faster!

We've been able to get small appliances to work (hot plate, blender, tv/laptop).
We've been able to run the washing machine several times.
We wanna get the dishwasher and maybe fridge on the solar system.

Getting another deep cycle battery was always part of the plan.

I'll definitely take your advice and look into the MPPT charge controller.

Thank you for your feedback everyone.

Edit: I don't know the difference between 20v/40v/60v etc as far as MPPT charge controllers go.
I'm guessing the higher the voltage, the more power I'll get out of it?

These things seem to run from $80 to $500+.
Any recommendations?

 

[sunshine_eggo]

I didn't see it mentioned, but it's unlikely that the 100W and 230W can be on the same controller. You will likely need to retain the PWM charger for the 100W panel.

Pictures of the labels on the back of the panels?

 

[littleharbor2]

I didn't see it mentioned, but it's unlikely that the 100W and 230W can be on the same controller. You will likely need to retain the PWM charger for the 100W panel.

Pictures of the labels on the back of the panels?

Post #4

 

[JeremyG]

I found this;
Solar charge controller 100A/80A/60A MPPT/PWM Solar Charge Controller 12V/24V/36V/48V Auto Controller Tools Solar PV Battery Charger With LCD & Dual USB solar battery https://a.co/d/bt2SGw8

I'm sorry for my delay responding.
To clarify some questions, I have;
1x 100 watt panel I got from a hardware store (to test out this solar thing).
When we liked how it worked, we decided to invest in more.
I found a guy selling used panels (he had dozens of 230watt panels. I've purchased 3 off him so far, with plans to buy more.

When adding the 3x 230 watts (690) plus the smaller 100watt panel, it totals 790watts.
I thought I could keep them all on the same circuit.
I'm getting the impression the 100watt panel isn't benefiting the other 3x 230watt panels?
Should I remove the 100watt panel and only use the 3x 230 panels as the main panels?
I've attached photos of my basement setup.
It's in a pretty tight space, so everything is kinda cramped in there. I'll be modifying the set up soon, to accomodate another battery.
Thank you all so much for your patience and kindness.
I'm just starting out and have very little understanding of how the numbers work.
Volts/watts/amps.

We've successfully used a 2 burner hot plate, a blender, a microwave.
We did one test with the washing machine and it worked. We've been using the washing machine with this set up (using an extension cord in the basement, plugged into the inverter), for about a month. The system can easily handle 1 or 2 loads per day (family of 5).
I plugged the dishwasher into the inverter.
It almost did a full load (which takes about an hour), but the remote/controller screen (volts?) went from 14 down to 10.9 within that hour.
We made sure to make sure the battery was fully charged and started it around noon time, on a sunny day (max I've seen that number is 14.6).
The controller is set to auto shut off at 10.8).
So, the dishwasher didn't quite finish.
We tested out the fridge one day (unplugged it from the grid and plugged it into the inverter), which was a success.

So here are my questions;
. Should I remove the 100watt panel?
(Is it conflicting with the other 230watt panels?)
. Is the Amazon controller sufficient?
. We plan to get another battery in the near future. Would another battery increase that 14.6v to 28+v?
(As mentioned, we plan to buy at least 2 more 230watt panels from this guy, bringing us to 5 total 230watt panels)
Ideally, I'd like to plug my fridge in, full time. Use my washer and possibly dryer (though we haven't tested the dryer yet), dishwasher + basic, small appliances).

We have a "4 stud bus bar" for the wires.

Thanks for reading the rant.
You've all been so helpful and patient.

 

[littleharbor2]

I found this;
Solar charge controller 100A/80A/60A MPPT/PWM Solar Charge Controller 12V/24V/36V/48V Auto Controller Tools Solar PV Battery Charger With LCD & Dual USB solar battery https://a.co/d/bt2SGw8

I'm sorry for my delay responding.
To clarify some questions, I have;
1x 100 watt panel I got from a hardware store (to test out this solar thing).
When we liked how it worked, we decided to invest in more.
I found a guy selling used panels (he had dozens of 230watt panels. I've purchased 3 off him so far, with plans to buy more.

When adding the 3x 230 watts (690) plus the smaller 100watt panel, it totals 790watts.
I thought I could keep them all on the same circuit.
I'm getting the impression the 100watt panel isn't benefiting the other 3x 230watt panels?
Should I remove the 100watt panel and only use the 3x 230 panels as the main panels?
I've attached photos of my basement setup.
It's in a pretty tight space, so everything is kinda cramped in there. I'll be modifying the set up soon, to accomodate another battery.
Thank you all so much for your patience and kindness.
I'm just starting out and have very little understanding of how the numbers work.
Volts/watts/amps.

We've successfully used a 2 burner hot plate, a blender, a microwave.
We did one test with the washing machine and it worked. We've been using the washing machine with this set up (using an extension cord in the basement, plugged into the inverter), for about a month. The system can easily handle 1 or 2 loads per day (family of 5).
I plugged the dishwasher into the inverter.
It almost did a full load (which takes about an hour), but the remote/controller screen (volts?) went from 14 down to 10.9 within that hour.
We made sure to make sure the battery was fully charged and started it around noon time, on a sunny day (max I've seen that number is 14.6).
The controller is set to auto shut off at 10.8).
So, the dishwasher didn't quite finish.
We tested out the fridge one day (unplugged it from the grid and plugged it into the inverter), which was a success.

So here are my questions;
. Should I remove the 100watt panel?
(Is it conflicting with the other 230watt panels?)
. Is the Amazon controller sufficient?
. We plan to get another battery in the near future. Would another battery increase that 14.6v to 28+v?
(As mentioned, we plan to buy at least 2 more 230watt panels from this guy, bringing us to 5 total 230watt panels)
Ideally, I'd like to plug my fridge in, full time. Use my washer and possibly dryer (though we haven't tested the dryer yet), dishwasher + basic, small appliances).

We have a "4 stud bus bar" for the wires.

Thanks for reading the rant.
You've all been so helpful and patient.

." Should I remove the 100watt panel?"
With the charge controller you have you really should remove the 230 watt panels. They will work but you are taking a 50% hit in their output. What you should do, as previously suggested, is, Get a real MPPT controller, save the other controller for use with the 100 watt panel, even if you use it to charge the one battery bank you have. You CAN charge with multiple sources.

It you get another battery you can wire it in parallel with your original battery for 12 volts, or, in series for 24 volts. If you increase the voltage you will need a 24 volt inverter.

It is not clear if that MPPT controller is real or a fake. They aren't giving enough info in the link you posted. EPever brands seem to be widely sold all over the world. While not the best, they are true MPPT controllers.

 

[Supervstech]

I found this;
Solar charge controller 100A/80A/60A MPPT/PWM Solar Charge Controller 12V/24V/36V/48V Auto Controller Tools Solar PV Battery Charger With LCD & Dual USB solar battery https://a.co/d/bt2SGw8

I'm sorry for my delay responding.
To clarify some questions, I have;
1x 100 watt panel I got from a hardware store (to test out this solar thing).
When we liked how it worked, we decided to invest in more.
I found a guy selling used panels (he had dozens of 230watt panels. I've purchased 3 off him so far, with plans to buy more.

When adding the 3x 230 watts (690) plus the smaller 100watt panel, it totals 790watts.
I thought I could keep them all on the same circuit.
I'm getting the impression the 100watt panel isn't benefiting the other 3x 230watt panels?
Should I remove the 100watt panel and only use the 3x 230 panels as the main panels?
I've attached photos of my basement setup.
It's in a pretty tight space, so everything is kinda cramped in there. I'll be modifying the set up soon, to accomodate another battery.
Thank you all so much for your patience and kindness.
I'm just starting out and have very little understanding of how the numbers work.
Volts/watts/amps.

We've successfully used a 2 burner hot plate, a blender, a microwave.
We did one test with the washing machine and it worked. We've been using the washing machine with this set up (using an extension cord in the basement, plugged into the inverter), for about a month. The system can easily handle 1 or 2 loads per day (family of 5).
I plugged the dishwasher into the inverter.
It almost did a full load (which takes about an hour), but the remote/controller screen (volts?) went from 14 down to 10.9 within that hour.
We made sure to make sure the battery was fully charged and started it around noon time, on a sunny day (max I've seen that number is 14.6).
The controller is set to auto shut off at 10.8).
So, the dishwasher didn't quite finish.
We tested out the fridge one day (unplugged it from the grid and plugged it into the inverter), which was a success.

So here are my questions;
. Should I remove the 100watt panel?
(Is it conflicting with the other 230watt panels?)
. Is the Amazon controller sufficient?
. We plan to get another battery in the near future. Would another battery increase that 14.6v to 28+v?
(As mentioned, we plan to buy at least 2 more 230watt panels from this guy, bringing us to 5 total 230watt panels)
Ideally, I'd like to plug my fridge in, full time. Use my washer and possibly dryer (though we haven't tested the dryer yet), dishwasher + basic, small appliances).

We have a "4 stud bus bar" for the wires.

Thanks for reading the rant.
You've all been so helpful and patient.

The standing rule is...

If it has usb ports on the controller, it is a PWM, NOT MPPT heck, PWM is in the name of the controller...

I agree, the 100W panel should stay on the pwm controller, and the 230W panels need a true mppt controller.

 

[Rednecktek]

So a couple things to throw at you...

The rule of thumb for SCC is 10a of SCC per 100w of panel @ 12v. For 690w of panels (3×230w) you're going to want at LEAST a 60a SCC with a 150v PVInput voltage. EPEver, Renogy, Weize, even a PowMr or MakeSkyBlue would be a MASSIVE improvement.

That controller is complete garbage, don't bother.

The 100w panel and the old controller are massively nerfing your system, take out the 100w and get a proper MPPT controller and you'll about triple or more how much power you get out of those 230w panels.

Lead acid batteries (Flooded, AGM, GEL, etc) are only good for 50% discharge, so if you have a 100ah rated battery, you can only get about 50ah out of it before you start damaging your batteries.

Solar panels don't PUSH power into a system, the batteries ASK for power and the panels TRY to provide that power to the battery. The SCC takes the solar panel voltage DC and converts it to battery DC.

A PWM controller like what you have and the one you listed convert the power by cutting off the voltage coming in, whereas a MPPT controller converts the higher voltage into lower voltage and higher amps. In your case what that means is (as a napkin math example) those 230w panels are probably putting out about 6a at 37v. On a PWM controller it's taking that power and cutting it down to 14v to charge the battery wasting the extra voltage, so your bateries are only getting 6a at 14v, or 84w out of your 230v panel. A MPPT controller really cares about wattage, so it converts that 37v at 6a down to 16a at 14v. 6a or 16a, which would you rather see?

When you mix & match panels, the combination has to use the lowest common points between the panels, so what you've currently got by having that 100w panel in with 3 of the 230w panels would look something like this (again, using rough example napkin math):

3x 230w panels @ 6a × 37v
1x 100w panel @ 5a × 20v
Lowest common points = 4x panels @ 5a × 20v = 400w

That black SCC is from Harbor Freight and only good for 30a and feed 14v to charge the batteries, so 30a × 14v = 420w

So you're maxing out the cheap PWM controller by seriously nerfing your panels.

Now, let's throw a 60a MPPT controller on there and pull that 100w panel out of the loop and see what it does:

3x 230w panels @ 6a × 37v = 660w (napkin math) ÷ 14v = 47.5a of charging current, or about 50% more charging. Now, for bonus power you can reuse that 100w panel and the old SCC for another 85w or so of power to the batteries, for a total of 53 or so amps of charging, which would charge a single 100ah battery in about an hour.

That gives you a LOT of overhead to get more batteries in parallel so your inverter can get the power it's calling for by spreading that draw across multiple batteries.

 

[littleharbor2]

Typical 230 watt panels are early 60 cell format. Their Vmp. are usually right around 30 volts or less. Here are the stats for a Yingli 230 watt, 60 cell panel.

Specifications:

• Rated Power: 230W
• Open circuit voltage (VOC): 37.0 V
• Max power voltage (VMP): 29.5 V
• Short circuit current (ISC): 8.50 A
• Max power current: 8.14 A
• Power Tolerance 0/+3%
• Maximum system voltage: 600V (UL)
• Fuse Rating: 20 a

This doesn't change the points Rednecktek is making.
Especially with their lower than 72 cell, 24 volt nominal, voltage the only way to use these panels is with an MPPT controller.

 

[JeremyG]

Thank you to everyone who submitted your generous feedback.
I have unplugged the 100watt panel. I'll use it for something else.
I ordered a new controller (image attached)
EAsun MPPT solar charge controller.
It'll arrive on Friday.
It seemed to check all the check boxes everyone suggested.

On another note, I have a flooded battery.
I have come to learn they should be watered every 3 or 4 weeks.
Is this correct?
Do I have to disassemble it every month and check the water levels, topping it up?

(Thank you for the humble education).

You guys have been so patient answering questions from a guy who's just beginning to learn about this solar stuff.

 

[littleharbor2]

Depending on your usage, charging profile and age of the batteries you may need to add distilled water monthly. Newer batteries with a moderate charging profile may not need watering each month but it's a good practice to regularly check electrolyte levels. It's a good way to catch any issues with them early.
There should be no need to disassemble the battery bank to do this. That being said you want to locate the batteries where you have comfortable access and easily visible cells.

 

[JeremyG]

Hello fellow solar enthusiasts.
Here is a friendly update.

. I recently learned I have to fill up my flooded battery about once a month or so, with distilled water. ...so that's fine.
. I have 3x 230 watt panels and 1x 100 watt panels. There was lots of feedback to remove the 100 watt panel from the set up. So I did. I'll get into that in a bit.
. With the 3x 230 watt panels. They're feeding into the main system (690 watts). I bought an mttp controller.
The controller charges really fast.
Max it goes to is 16(volts?).
We make some meals on a hot plate. All our laundry (washing machine) is done with solar power. The dryer (4 prong) sadly didn't work. My upstairs fridge can be plugged in pretty much all day...but not all night (but nothing else). Our bar fridge+chest freezer can both be plugged in during the day.
We're charging batteries, devices etc.
I have plans on getting 2x more panels, 230 watts each, making oue total wattage 1,150. We have plans to get more batteries, in hopes of plugging in at least half the house into solar.

. I've put the single 100watt panel on the roof of the shed out back. I want to get a small battery so I can charge some batteries for my Ryobi wireless power tools. I don't plan to put much effort/funds towards it. It's a side thing, mostly to make use of the 100 watt panel. Because I paid for it...and I wanna use it.

what kind of battery would you recommend for this?
Something small just for charging power tool batteries?
I'm guessing a 500watt-1000watt inverter?
(Should I also get a small mttp controller for back there, or is that low end...the PWM one ok?)

Thank you for your time.
Thank you for being patient with a guy who's just learning about this Solar stuff.

 

[Rednecktek]

I want to get a small battery so I can charge some batteries for my Ryobi wireless power tools. I don't plan to put much effort/funds towards it.

The easiest and cheapest way to accomplish that would be to get a Ryobi 12v battery charger or two, and some automotive cig lighter sockets and skip the inverter all together. As for batteries, a cheap WallyWorld DC29 is usually about $100 out the door (about the same price as a 35Ah Hobo Freight battery) and will be plenty with 60Ah usable. Go ahead and use your old PWM controller for that single panel, it'll be fine.

Other than that, woot! Looks good!

The dryer (4 prong) sadly didn't work.

The dryer is going to need 240v to feed, that's a pretty big upgrade on a system so don't feel bad.

My upstairs fridge can be plugged in pretty much all day...but not all night (but nothing else). Our bar fridge+chest freezer can both be plugged in during the day.

That's just going to mean adding more batteries to the system to increase capacity. Super easy. Remember that a lead acid battery can only use about 50% of its rated Ah.

I have plans on getting 2x more panels, 230 watts each, making our total wattage 1,150.

You're probably going to need another MPPT controller when you get those panels. IIRC you've maxed out your current controller and just adding more panels isn't going to be usable.

 

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Without intending to discourage you, your current learning approach is perhaps leading you astray in many ways ... you're purchasing (unnecessary) items, without really understanding the item's role in a reasonable or modern solar gear setup. I would hold off buying piecemeal any further, as this might possibly lead you further down a rathole.

I would focus on building a Solar Generator (SoGen), and using reasonable components to do so ... this will be your learning plan outcome. Not only will all info translate to on-grid or off-grid systems, you'll end up with a SoGen that can power useful items around your house during a grid outage. Building something very useful while learning up a storm ...

There are numerous youtube vids on such SoGen's, and a few of these will help you master the concepts, identify what you don't understand, and more vids on background topics (ohm's law calc's, etc.) will backfill your knowledge.

First, do a design of what you want to power, and see what "ideal" components & designs these website pages lead you to ...

1. determine if any electric requirements can be served by other means, to reduce the footprint/cost of final solar gear; don't power your dryer, if it can be switched out for natural gas/propane, if at all possible. Once done with this step, you'll know that an item has to fit in your power budget.

2. now, step through your sizing of solar gear with the help of these example websites:

a. at this calculator page, enter in each appliance's values (watts, hours/day you want to run it, etc.):
unboundsolar.com/solar-information/offgrid-calculator

b. here, using numbers from above, fiddle with various entries/components, and you'll see in real-time what your system component (inverter, mppt, panel) sizing is:
altestore.com/store/calculators/off_grid_calculator/

You would normally start with 48v as the most efficient system reference voltage, but you can experiment with 24v or 12v designs as well. The reference voltage affects component costs, and SoGen's can be built out of 12v or 24v components, so if you need to save money here, the SoGen will still work.

There are many similar website pages/calculators, but these two pages should help you get through most of the necessary calculations, and you'll know what solar components are necessary for your needs.

Then, visit the "diy solar products and system schematics" link at the top of this forum, for example layouts, equipment lists, etc. Search the entire site to drill into more specifics particular to your design that is taking shape.

Some of your existing components can be repurposed, so you haven't really lost money ... for example, the pwm device and single panel (and a battery) could be repurposed to path lighting in your landscaping, or other kinds of projects around the house/yard.

Hope this helps ...

 

[JeremyG]

Rednecktek
Thank you for your feedback.
I was already quite certain the dryer wasn't going to work.
Some of us have to learn the hard way.
At least one extra battery is in the works.
(We don't all have thousands of dollars to throw at hobby projects like these...so sometimes building these things is slow).
Thank you for your advice on looking into another mttp controller. I'll have to research more on that.
"What's the max wattage before needing a second mttp controller". This is something I wouldn't have thought of.
Thank you for your elaborate explanation and kind approach.


50ShadesOfDirt
I thank you for your honest feedback.
I'm not discouraged at all. I'm learning a great deal about the world of solar from people who know more about it than I do.
As far as a SOGEN. I have seen them on DYI Forest shelters/dyi underground dugout shelters all the time.
I like the idea of them very much, but they seem to me more like something you'd being with you for a modern camping trip (or GLAMPING trip). Our grandparents and parents would be baffled at how much time and money has been invested over the decades on modernizing camping.

My wife and I have 3 kids, all under the age of 10. Camping isn't on our list for the next few years.
We have tent, which we inherited from a passes relative, which has been in the attic for almost a decade, since we've received it. We're considering pulling it out this summer, to see if the boys are ready for it, the odd Friday or Saturday night.
But...that's another story for another time.

At the moment, what started out as a plan for emergency backup in a storm (snow or other, in south Ontario,Canada), has turned into, "what ELSE can I plug into this system?).
For that reason, I have slowly invested in bits and pieces to allow more growth to satisfy that question.
As mentioned, we've done the fridge, during the day, all washing machine loads for the last couple months have been solar powered. We've plugged the living room gadgets (the power bar) into an extension cord a few times, charged camera batteries, the cordless vacuum, made meals on a hot plate.
Just small things like that.
It IS still seen a "just in case of emergencies" option.
We've been tested it out on everything we can think to plug into it, so that IF there was a power outage, we know how we can ration it, if needed.
The current plan is to get more batteries (not sure how many). Start with a second one...do the same testing, to see how much longer the power lasts on 700 - 1100watts, than maybe a 3rd or 4th etc.

I happily accept advice and feedback.
If I'm doing something wrong or inefficient. I want to maximize power consumption and battery charging.

This community has been gentle and encouraging to people like me, who are just starting out and don't know much.
(And thank you for that).

 

[littleharbor2]

Making heat with electricity is best left to a large system built with those large loads in mind. Anything that CAN be done with propane or natural gas should be. While you have shown you can operate a hot plate with a single 12 volt battery the load on that single battery will drain it very rapidly, possibly leaving you in the dark with no way to run lights, charge phones or other important devices. Granted, it's going to incur additional cost but a small propane stove won't set you back too much and will be worth its weight in gold in an emergency.