Is 1380 amp hours too big of a battery bank in a van (3 epoch 460).......

[Ariel188]

Hello again everyone! ;-)

Sooo I talked to battleborn to let them know I was not going to get their batteries after all since they did spend 2 hours on the phone with me designing a system of 1080amp with 4 of their new gamechangers batteries and victron components and a wakespeed. To say they were not pleased, is an understatement. Telling me I will regret it and I am making huge mistake, and in 6 months my system won't work at all because 1380 amp is WAY too huge of a battery bank to charge if I do not plan on plugging into shore power. They also said it would take 1.5 days to charge those batteries with the 120 invertor I am getting. True?

I told them instead of the nations 280 with wakespeed I was considering roam rigs alternation with their regulator. They said if I dont use wakespeed I would be in trouble. He then admitted they bought wakespeed and redesigned it. Is this maybe why he said this? Oh I am so confused, and do not want to spent 20K on a bad solar system.....

I bought 3 epoch 460 amp hour batteries and planned to have all victron components as listed below.

I have not decided on which second alternator yet, but I will have a second alternator 100%! Any opinions about a second alternator for a sprinter van are welcome.

Can anyone please let me know if this is a good system, or what they may change and why? I don't think I need victrons BMS (BAM030712000 Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor) with the epoch batteries right? Oh BB also told me that my 710 watts solar I spent $4300 on is now worthless, with that battery bank size, is this true?

I told BB I would still buy all the victron stuff from them. At first they said it was programmed for their batteries, but then back pedaled to say I could use it with the epochs if I knew what "profile" the epoch batteries used. I have no idea what this means......

So should I buy the victron components from BB, or individually somewhere else? Please help, I do not want to make a huge mistake with all this! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! ;-)

12 volt system for my van:

- 3 Epoch 460 amps = 1380 amp hours
- 710 watts of solar (3 panels 170 watts and 2 panels 100 watts)
- Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 12/3000/120-50 120V inverter/charger
- SmartSolar MPPT 100/50 Charge Controller with Bluetooth (for the 3 panels at 170 watts each)
- SmartSolar MPPT 100/20_48V (for the 2 panels at 100 watts each)
- Victron Lynx Distributor positive and negative bus bar w/ fuse holders.
- Victron Battery Switch cut off switch
- Lynx Power In (bus bar for batteries)
- Cerbo GX
- GT Touch Screen 50
- Interface MK3-USB-C (VE.Bus to USB-C)
- VE.Direct Cable 1.8m
- RJ45 UTP Cable 1.8m
- MEGA-Fuse 300A/32c (5-pack)
-MEGA-Fuse 100A/32c (5-pack)

 

[ShaneC]

I can't help with vehicle systems but there's a dedicated sub forum for it: https://diysolarforum.com/forums/vehicle-mounted-systems.7/

 

[scrubjaysnest]

1380X0.2=276 amps required to charge. 710÷12= 59 amps. The first number is battery bank size times a .2c charge rate. The second number is max output from solar on a good day. The mppt's may get you to 70 with the panels in series and cooler days. Hopefully the alternator can make up the difference.

An energy audit of your daily usage is the only way to really tell.

I get my victron stuff off Amazon. $89 vs $143 from the local solar dealer for the 100/20 mppt.

 

[HarryN]

The total battery capacity is not that unusual, but it is a lot.

Building a van power system this sophisticated and powerful in 12 volts is kind of old school and probably not ideal but can be made to work if the person doing the work really knows what they are doing in great detail.

Keep in mind that BB is fundamentally a battery company. They carry the other items and program them all to work together based on how their batteries work and the right settings. It is more like a discounted service that goes along with offering a compete package of goods that all work together.

Let's do a quick calculation on the charging and use aspects:

Battery capacity = ( 1380 amp-hrs ) x ( 12 volts ) ~ 16, 500 watt -hrs.

In an air conditioning application in a van, on average they will use ~ 800 - 1 000 watts.

So ~ ( 16 000 watt-hrs ) / ( 1 000 watts ) ~ 16 hrs on a hot muggy day, perhaps 24 - 30 hrs in a location that cools off at night.

_______________

On the charging side, your inverter I believe can charge at 50 amps.

( 50 amps ) x ( 12 volt) ~ 600 watts

Similarly, to charge a 16 000 watt-hr battery bank (if it is empty)

( 16 000 watt-hrs) / ( 600 watts ) ~ 26 hrs.

__________--

The good news is that you can charge your battery bank and run the air conditioning at the same time - if the generator is up to the task.

______________

This is where a 24 volt system can be really helpful vs a 12 volt system.

The charge rate in amps is the same for both the 12 and 24 volt version, so now the charge rate becomes:

( 50 amps ) x ( 24 volts ) ~ 1 200 watts

( 16 000 watt-hrs ) / ( 1 200 watts) ~ 13 hrs

So the exact same equipment, but configured in 24 volts, charges 2x as fast.

 

[HarryN]

There are kind of two ways to look at solar:

- In my mind, the primary purpose on a van is to be able to run the refrigerator, lights, fans, and if possible - much of the cooking.

- With 700 watts of solar, that will be enough to cover those needs most of the time. Not really in the middle of winter due to overcast skies, but perhaps 7 - 8 months of the year. So in my mind, it does in fact help to cover a lot of your needs.

- Solar will not be enough in general to run electric heating, air conditioning on a van in any practical configuration.

So if you think about your van power system as a system that can work together with solar + the alternator charging, then it can be a viable year around system - as long as you keep the batteries within their temperature operating range.

I would not build a van power system without solar and 120 vac charging, so I consider them both to be important.

The solar aspect does make the alternator charging control somewhat more complicated and that might be why they are not thrilled with it.

 

[HarryN]

As far as parts in general, unless you are nearly expert level, try to rely on a minimal number of suppliers to pull it all together for you, even if it cost a bit more money.

The difference between the 4 game changers that they suggested vs the other brand is not really going to help you in the real world. Both are pretty significant.

Programming in the settings into all of those boxes is non trivial and they all need to work together. Some pretty bright people spend months dialing that in.

This is the kind of things that you really want to be working with a real power system integrator for as much of it as possible vs trying to make it all work on your own. It does matter how bright you are or who you are, there is just an incredible amount of details involved and working through it takes time and testing.

 

[mikefitz]

3 Epoch 460 amps = 1380 amp hours

That's a lot for a van compared to your listed chargers, what is your daily power consumption?

1.5 days to charge those batteries with the 120 invertor I am getting. True?

Yes, with that inverter charger, 50 amp charge will take 28 hours for a depleted bank. The solar won't help much, at vey best 300 amp hours per day. ( in real life perhaps 70% of that).

MEGA-Fuse 300A/32c

For lithium batteries class T fuses are recomended.

roam rigs alternation with their regulator.

It's important the current is regulated to a safe level, confirm roam rigs can do this.

My overview of the planed system suggests more research is needed as to your actual needs. 3000 watts of inverter in a 12v system requires serious cables and connections. A 24 volts system would be a better solution.

It's pointless having a large battery bank unless you have enough charger capacity to restore used energy in a resionable time.

 

[timselectric]

Telling me I will regret it and I am making huge mistake, and in 6 months my system won't work at all because 1380 amp is WAY too huge of a battery bank to charge if I do not plan on plugging into shore power.

This is bs.

Oh BB also told me that my 710 watts solar I spent $4300 on is now worthless, with that battery bank size, is this true?

And this.

How much LFP battery capacity you have, has nothing to do with the amount of charging capacity you have.
The size of your LFP battery is just the amount of reserve you have available.
The important thing about charging capacity is that it's on average more than your consumption.
Of course, solar is the preferred method. But your alternator will be able to supplement as needed.
(As long as your consumption is lower than your available charging capacity)

In my opinion, BB was just upset about losing the sales. And the back peddling was because they realized that they could lose all of the sales.

I personally would probably take all of my business, elsewhere.

 

[Dinobot248]

From a high level, here are my comments.

PV array is 710 w or 0.71 kw. This indicates how much "free" energy you can get from the sun and charge your batteries. Other factors such as location and van roof space probably matter more for a van setup. Install as much as you can.

Battery is 17.7 kwh (1380ah x 12.8v). This is your reserve power. Like others have said, this is independent of the PV array size. This should relate to how you use your van. Do you want to have electricity for 1 day of user or 30 days of use. Again other factors such as space in the van probably matter more. Install as much as you can.

I don't see your daily electric usage or maybe I missed it above. That is needed to confirm your battery size e.g. if you want 3 days of reserve capacity.


These are required
- 3 Epoch 460 amps = 1380 amp hours
- 710 watts of solar (3 panels 170 watts and 2 panels 100 watts)

These are required
- Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 12/3000/120-50 120V inverter/charger
- SmartSolar MPPT 100/50 Charge Controller with Bluetooth (for the 3 panels at 170 watts each)
- SmartSolar MPPT 100/20_48V (for the 2 panels at 100 watts each)

These are highly recommended since you want the Victron ecosystem
- Victron Lynx Distributor positive and negative bus bar w/ fuse holders.
- Lynx Power In (bus bar for batteries)
- Cerbo GX
- Interface MK3-USB-C (VE.Bus to USB-C)
- VE.Direct Cable 1.8m ----- You really want 2
- RJ45 UTP Cable 1.8m


You should buy the following
4 port wireless router ---- Get this if you choose to use your phone or laptop to view your Victron system via the Cerbo GX. It allows you to view your system over wifi which gives you more range than bluetooth. Also, these are cheap at <$50

Buy the right size. Mega fuses are for your Lynx distributor which connects your Inverter/charger and the SCCs.

- MEGA-Fuse 300A/32c (5-pack) ---- This is a good size for your inverter/charger. (3000 / 12.8) x 1.25 safety factor = 292A
-MEGA-Fuse 100A/32c (5-pack) ---- This is a bit larger than your equipment. The SCC 100/50 puts out max 50a and the 100/20a puts out max 20a.


This is optional. It is personal preference and a few hundred dollars. I use my phone, actually 6 phones and a laptop. All of them can display the Remote Console that is displayed on the GT Touch screen. Plus, I am not limited and can be 2 feet away or 50 feet away.
- GT Touch Screen 50


This "depends". I have an off grid system in my house in the city (not some far off cabin). I design my system to enable me to easily connect and disconnect all commponents. For a van, requirements will be different. Some like to set it and forget. I use a combination of fuses, breakers, different sized anderson connectors.
- Victron Battery Switch cut off switch

 

[HarryN]

This is bs.

And this.

How much LFP battery capacity you have, has nothing to do with the amount of charging capacity you have.
The size of your LFP battery is just the amount of reserve you have available.
The important thing about charging capacity is that it's on average more than your consumption.
Of course, solar is the preferred method. But your alternator will be able to supplement as needed.
(As long as your consumption is lower than your available charging capacity)

In my opinion, BB was just upset about losing the sales. And the back peddling was because they realized that they could lose all of the sales.

I personally would probably take all of my business, elsewhere.

It is easy to say, but not so easy to do unless you are a person with a lot of experience and the help of someone who has worked on things like this and have a real desire to do it.

The first time that I worked on a van with a wakespeed and secondary alternator it was not so smooth. I was helping a friend with is van and we both were all in for a variety of reasons and it was not so trivial to pull off reliably. In the end we did, but it really took both of our skills and life experiences to do it.

I feel like my van electrical skills are fairly high but I continue to learn even after years of playing with it.

There really are only a handful of suppliers and combinations of suppliers that really offer a solution that encompasses everything required.

 

[timselectric]

It is easy to say, but not so easy to do unless you are a person with a lot of experience and the help of someone who has worked on things like this and have a real desire to do it.

The first time that I worked on a van with a wakespeed and secondary alternator it was not so smooth. I was helping a friend with is van and we both were all in for a variety of reasons and it was not so trivial to pull off reliably. In the end we did, but it really took both of our skills and life experiences to do it.

I feel like my van electrical skills are fairly high but I continue to learn even after years of playing with it.

There really are only a handful of suppliers and combinations of suppliers that really offer a solution that encompasses everything required.

I absolutely agree that you need to gain the knowledge for anything you want to do.

 

[time2roll]

Very similar capacity to my set up in a 26' RV trailer. Works like a dream.
Probably not going to use the entire battery every day but when in the shade running a furnace for a week there will be no worries. Running a generator every day is overrated. Yes often there will be more power than needed and this is wonderful so that you can live life and not even think about power for days or weeks at a time. Smallish charger works fine when you find utility power.

 

[scrubjaysnest]

We have 200ah of AGM batts and the only time they go below 80% SOC is two weeks at a campground that gets about 15 minutes of solar. To recover this every 3 days requires running the motorhome or generator over 4 hours. Some campground rules limit you to 2 hours per day or not at all.

That is why we are very conservative on using power from the battery bank.
We have 500 watts of solar, run the reeffer on propane and only use the 400 watt inverter for charging the laptops or batteries for power tools. In the AZ desert the 200 watts on the roof are fine. With shade the other 300 watts are portable and we chase the sun with them.
Are camping style isn't for everybody. Some need a lot of power for their AC appliances.

 

[HarryN]

The victron system integration is not necessarily in your favor for such a project.

In some ways it just complicates it all vs really reduces your challenges.

 

[RV8R]

Hello again everyone! ;-)

Sooo I talked to battleborn to let them know I was not going to get their batteries after all since they did spend 2 hours on the phone with me designing a system of 1080amp with 4 of their new gamechangers batteries and victron components and a wakespeed. To say they were not pleased, is an understatement. Telling me I will regret it and I am making huge mistake, and in 6 months my system won't work at all because 1380 amp is WAY too huge of a battery bank to charge if I do not plan on plugging into shore power. They also said it would take 1.5 days to charge those batteries with the 120 invertor I am getting. True?

I told them instead of the nations 280 with wakespeed I was considering roam rigs alternation with their regulator. They said if I dont use wakespeed I would be in trouble. He then admitted they bought wakespeed and redesigned it. Is this maybe why he said this? Oh I am so confused, and do not want to spent 20K on a bad solar system.....

I bought 3 epoch 460 amp hour batteries and planned to have all victron components as listed below.

I have not decided on which second alternator yet, but I will have a second alternator 100%! Any opinions about a second alternator for a sprinter van are welcome.

Can anyone please let me know if this is a good system, or what they may change and why? I don't think I need victrons BMS (BAM030712000 Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor) with the epoch batteries right? Oh BB also told me that my 710 watts solar I spent $4300 on is now worthless, with that battery bank size, is this true?

I told BB I would still buy all the victron stuff from them. At first they said it was programmed for their batteries, but then back pedaled to say I could use it with the epochs if I knew what "profile" the epoch batteries used. I have no idea what this means......

So should I buy the victron components from BB, or individually somewhere else? Please help, I do not want to make a huge mistake with all this! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! ;-)

12 volt system for my van:

- 3 Epoch 460 amps = 1380 amp hours
- 710 watts of solar (3 panels 170 watts and 2 panels 100 watts)
- Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 12/3000/120-50 120V inverter/charger
- SmartSolar MPPT 100/50 Charge Controller with Bluetooth (for the 3 panels at 170 watts each)
- SmartSolar MPPT 100/20_48V (for the 2 panels at 100 watts each)
- Victron Lynx Distributor positive and negative bus bar w/ fuse holders.
- Victron Battery Switch cut off switch
- Lynx Power In (bus bar for batteries)
- Cerbo GX
- GT Touch Screen 50
- Interface MK3-USB-C (VE.Bus to USB-C)
- VE.Direct Cable 1.8m
- RJ45 UTP Cable 1.8m
- MEGA-Fuse 300A/32c (5-pack)
-MEGA-Fuse 100A/32c (5-pack)

Hi @Ariel188

I haven’t read thru the archives here to know exactly where you are at, but from what I have read you have purchased some electrical equipment & not others.

I have 1 Primary Recommendation for You; Stop buying components until you have a design figured out. Get your design sorted out & then buy the rest of your stuff.

To sort out your design; the first task is to identify the loads & calculate the amount of energy you will need each day ( energy audit / load chart ).

IIRC, you want to be able to cook & have air conditioning via battery energy ? Long term battery powered air conditioning is a big deal. And to accomplish that it comes down to basically one thing ,,, “How are You gonna charge your Batteries”.


Solar, Alternator, 2nd Alternator, Generator, Shore Power


I assume your Sprinter has factory air conditioning, so that can partially help ( if you are running your engine to charge, I assume you would have the factory A/C on also.


There are a lot of Members here that can help you out if you are wanting to learn all this stuff ,,, it is just knowledge.

On another one of your threads I mentioned @HarryN

************

IIRC, if you added 1 more Epoch battery you could then have the option of 24vdc or 48vdc house battery bank. I suspect you are not there yet to understand this statement, but if gives you options.

Now I am a “Team Blue” Guy ,,, Victron ,,, but on the surface, I do not think you need all that Victron gear. I am going to suspect you don’t even know what it does. So, if I were you, I would gain the knowledge & get a design made up first.

Alternatively, You could hire someone like @HarryN to design & build you a system starting with what you already have.

 

[Ariel188]

The victron system integration is not necessarily in your favor for such a project.

In some ways it just complicates it all vs really reduces your challenges.

May I ask how it can make things more complicated if I am using all victron components? Thank you.

 

[HarryN]

May I ask how it can make things more complicated if I am using all victron components? Thank you.

The reason that it can be more complex is because the components talk to each other.

In some cases, this is nice, but sometimes they over ride the settings of each other.

If a system is built with for instance a stand along charger, once the settings are in it, then you don't have to worry about them being affected by a centralized control system sending out new settings, or wondering if it in fact did.

Victron also does software updates, and there isn't any way to be sure how these updates will affect your settings.

I am not down talking Victron, it is just that sometimes simplicity is beneficial and it is easy to spend a lot more time goofing around with screens vs just using your power system and not worrying about it.

 

[Ariel188]

The reason that it can be more complex is because the components talk to each other.

In some cases, this is nice, but sometimes they over ride the settings of each other.

If a system is built with for instance a stand along charger, once the settings are in it, then you don't have to worry about them being affected by a centralized control system sending out new settings, or wondering if it in fact did.

Victron also does software updates, and there isn't any way to be sure how these updates will affect your settings.

I am not down talking Victron, it is just that sometimes simplicity is beneficial and it is easy to spend a lot more time goofing around with screens vs just using your power system and not worrying about it.

Do you use victron or something else?