atelierminceur
New Member
Yeah sadly its not that sunny since i'm often around in the alps in valley so the solar will be more for france and spain trips..
Geneva is flater but surely way less cute/beautiful than the other part of switzerland
Van build - setup design check?
- Thread starter atelierminceur
- Start date
Geneva is flater but surely way less cute/beautiful than the other part of switzerland
atelierminceur
New Member
The brand was well praised by will prowse so thats why i directed myself to it even if it cost a bit more than other batteries around
Yeah this is just still way more expensive and i'm not sure what i'm risking going 12v with the appropriate breakers and cables ?
Yeah it seems like and its a bit frustrating so far since there is soo much and such a variety of opinion. As a beginner it's a bit heavy and maybe i should focus more on basic electronic understanding
Yeah you are right it's mostly than in my mind with the small knowledge i have so far a small built like mine is overkill on 24v. Its not like i will be running heaps of electrical stuff most of the time
I'll keep investigating. Thanks for taking the time to answer
HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
There are people who run their vans with just AC and really no DC to speak of.
In my case, I use my explorer power system 99% for my power tools and the are all cord types, because I am too cheap to buy battery powered tools.
All of your devices can run off of AC so is there really any good reason to have DC in your van at all?
Assuming that the inverter burns ~ 30 watts continuous, that is ( 30 watts ) x ( 24 hrs ) ~ 600 watt -hrs / day ~ 1/2 of a kW-hr.
More or less ~ 1/2 of a Li battery capacity per day. So just buy some extra battery capacity, run the inverter to power everything, and stop once a week at an EV charger.
Save money by using AC appliances for everything and skip installing a bunch of DC wire and terminations.
In your existing home, your appliances are burning this off and you probably don't even realize it.
Again - it comes down to philosophy more than if one path or the other is right or wrong.
One of my buddies has a 12 volt only setup in his van and I think is allergic to inverters. My little setup has:
- 2 x 100 amp-hr @ 12 volt AGM batteries wired in series for 24 volt
- 110 watt inverter
- USB
- 12 volt outlet
- solar charging
My old explorer has an 80 amp alternator, so I don't bother trying to charge from it.
Really all that I do is use power from the inverter, the rest is just there for fun but rarely used.
In my case, I use my explorer power system 99% for my power tools and the are all cord types, because I am too cheap to buy battery powered tools.
All of your devices can run off of AC so is there really any good reason to have DC in your van at all?
Assuming that the inverter burns ~ 30 watts continuous, that is ( 30 watts ) x ( 24 hrs ) ~ 600 watt -hrs / day ~ 1/2 of a kW-hr.
More or less ~ 1/2 of a Li battery capacity per day. So just buy some extra battery capacity, run the inverter to power everything, and stop once a week at an EV charger.
Save money by using AC appliances for everything and skip installing a bunch of DC wire and terminations.
In your existing home, your appliances are burning this off and you probably don't even realize it.
Again - it comes down to philosophy more than if one path or the other is right or wrong.
One of my buddies has a 12 volt only setup in his van and I think is allergic to inverters. My little setup has:
- 2 x 100 amp-hr @ 12 volt AGM batteries wired in series for 24 volt
- 110 watt inverter
- USB
- 12 volt outlet
- solar charging
My old explorer has an 80 amp alternator, so I don't bother trying to charge from it.
Really all that I do is use power from the inverter, the rest is just there for fun but rarely used.
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
What power tools do you run from this?
atelierminceur
New Member
I mean if i were to not run anything DC it would still be a DC battery, a DC/DC charger for the battery, an inverter for AC/DC and almost everything else DC. SO i'm not sure what it does change beside just not buying DC fuse box and a few cables?
Maybe i'm missing something there sorry if this is dumb.
Yeah i mean for 3 days i'm ok with a 300Ah battery with my max daily 90Ah consumption right ?
HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
I have a small off grid shop, one solar panel on the roof of my explorer. Two panels at the shop that get sun when I am there. All ~ 150 watt each. The two at the shop are on a cart so I can aim them at the sun as it moves around.
- 1/2 inch power drill - it is only 400 watts on the label.
- two different circular saws
- Wood router for doing edges and round overs
- 1800 watt steinel heat gun (for heat shrink ) Usually at 1/2 power though
- cross cut saw, I think it is 10 inch - the ones sold at home depot or lowes
- Some LED lights as needed if there isn't enough
Also have there a 4 x 100 amp-hr AGM battery pack on my test stand and access to another inverter if needed.
There are times when I can't produce enough power at the shop and will charge up the vehicle system at home overnight.
At home it can be easier to just plug into the explorer to run the electric lawn edger or tree trimmer for small jobs and just use the extension cord that I keep in it.
I am re-building a small cnc wood router at the shop for hobby stuff. Might try to run it off the 48 volt battery pack - TBD. That one is going to challenge me a bit more for having enough solar power there.
It is just me and occasionally my son, so only one tool at a time. Usually a lot more time measuring than cutting so it all works.
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
That must be one helluva 110W inverter!
HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
There is nothing dumb about thinking, pondering, using us as a sounding board. Sometimes writing things down or saying them out loud / explaining the idea helps it to gel in our minds.
So let's run the math, I tend to think in watt-hrs and kW-hrs.
( 1 day of loads ) x ( 90 amp-hrs of 12 volt ) x ( 12 volts ) ~ 1 000 watt-hrs per day.
That is more or less what is stored in 1 each, 100 amp-hr battery. So the loads will consume roughly the contents of 1 battery per day.
___________________________
The inverter being on will use ~ 500 watt-hrs per day from the prior calculations. ( 1/2 a battery of capacity per day) but this will likely be made up for plus some more by your solar panels, especially if they are poly ones. So we can probably ignore this as a wash.
__________-
So 3 days of no driving will consume what is in 3 each, 100 amp-hr batteries. If you do nothing else, approximately it will be time to plug in somewhere or drive.
_____________
Power from driving will be roughly 50 ish amps @12 volts from a Transit. If you have CCP2 that is ideal to connect into. I use 50 amps because the math is easy and I don't need a calculator.
( 50 amps ) x ( 12 volt ) x ( 2 hrs ) ~ 1 000 watt-hrs, so that will refill the equivalent of one battery.
MisterSandals
Participation Medalist
90A x 12.8V nominal x 24h = 27,648Wh
HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
It is a good one. It cost almost $1 / watt. It is a telecom grade inverter. I spin up the circular saws and chop saw under no load and let them reach full speed first.
Then I cut at a lower speed than you would if you had full power. So I mostly do lighter cuts with it - sort of cheating I guess.
I have several routers. The smaller ones I just keep a round over bit in all of the time. The full size one I have not tried to run off of the smaller inverter.
If I need to really power through, I have a 2 kW / 48 volt inverter on the test stand that I can use for extended use.
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HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
I think that his personal energy audit / estimate is that he will use ~ 90 amp-hrs @ 12 volt equivalent per day.
atelierminceur
New Member
Oh yeah now i just need to figure it if i go victron or not for the inverter. Sadly not much data on other inverters and particularly the one i'm interested in and heck even the victron one seems to have a wide variability between the same units. Some unit lay at 20 some at 50 for the multiplus soo.
I may also just buy a more expensive fridge which is really efficient at 60kwh per year so close to half the usage of the previous one.
Also i may just end up using propane if im close to running out of gaz and the fridge has to run.
anyway thanks againn heaps of infos
I may also just buy a more expensive fridge which is really efficient at 60kwh per year so close to half the usage of the previous one.
Also i may just end up using propane if im close to running out of gaz and the fridge has to run.
anyway thanks againn heaps of infos
HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
Back when I was building van electrical systems for people, I would always go with at least 4 x 100 amp-hr batteries as a minimum for a project like yours. I still think that you are cutting it too close.
The only reason that I have the smaller system in my explorer is that it is a small vehicle. I took out one of the second row seats to put it there, vs in my mini van that I had, it had 4 batteries and a 2 kW inverter.
It might be possible to replace the alternator in that Transit with the heavy duty version, which is ~ 220 amp range and it generates more power at low rpms. Then you could in theory push it closer to 100 amps.
The only reason that I have the smaller system in my explorer is that it is a small vehicle. I took out one of the second row seats to put it there, vs in my mini van that I had, it had 4 batteries and a 2 kW inverter.
It might be possible to replace the alternator in that Transit with the heavy duty version, which is ~ 220 amp range and it generates more power at low rpms. Then you could in theory push it closer to 100 amps.
atelierminceur
New Member
I mean i don't really see how 400Ah is cutting it too close ??
I ended up looking a lot online at the comparison between advertised fridge consumption vs real world consumption and i was running some more maths and with a fridge advertised to consume 60kwh/yr i'm more or less around 12-15Ah per day for a really efficient fridge which is pretty low and give lots of wiggle with a 300Ah battery.
Because it seems like that generally the advertised power consumption is fairly accurate. Yeah actually measuring the unit is the best approach but that is impossible without buying it first. Advertised energy number is a reasonable place to start.
And same for induction. A few data around with 1800w induction cooktop. 60-70Ah per day for cooking is already in the highest tier when stir frying and stir frying lets tons of heat escape
So around 80Ah per day and i have 20Ah left for everything else than cooking and eating. Inverter, fan, lights, charging devices and an occasional water pump. Seems to me that 100Ah gets me 3 day if i'm not driving there is no sun and i'm full ? What am i missing there why is 400Ah not enough ?
Also the 24v system without cables and a few other detail like fuses:
if i go full victron except the battery that is litime it's 3000€
on 12v its 2300€ full victron again except the litime battery.
It's quiet a price difference mostly from needing to double the 12v batteries to get 24v
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HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
You are using ~ 50 amp-hrs per day just to power the inverter being "on". That will be difficult to reduce much further unless you switch to a refrigerator that runs on DC. Unfortunately that will cost a lot more money so it is kind of a toss up.
Your loads are ~ 100 amp-hrs per day.
Total ~ 150 amp-hrs per day. ( 3 days ) x ( 150 amp-hrs per day ) ~ 450 amp-hrs.
The refrigerator power consumption numbers are dependent on the interior van air temperature. The power consumption numbers listed are based on ~ 20C. In this area we can routinely hit 40 C in the summer, so the consumption is dramatically higher - but so is solar charging availability.
4 each, 100 amp-hr batteries will store ~ 4 kW-hrs of capacity. It does not matter if they are wired 12 volt or 24 volt.
Your loads are ~ 100 amp-hrs per day.
Total ~ 150 amp-hrs per day. ( 3 days ) x ( 150 amp-hrs per day ) ~ 450 amp-hrs.
The refrigerator power consumption numbers are dependent on the interior van air temperature. The power consumption numbers listed are based on ~ 20C. In this area we can routinely hit 40 C in the summer, so the consumption is dramatically higher - but so is solar charging availability.
4 each, 100 amp-hr batteries will store ~ 4 kW-hrs of capacity. It does not matter if they are wired 12 volt or 24 volt.
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atelierminceur
New Member
Yeah i factored the temperature if not at standard 20° temp the fridge is at 10Ah
How is the inverter consuming 50 Amp hours per day if its idling at 10-15w like the multiplus or pheonix? am i mising something
Yeah its just double the price for a 24v battery. Heck i need an alternative then my build isnt sustainable mb
HarryN
Solar Enthusiast
Post #23 has the calculations for inverter standby power consumption that I did.
Your access to electricity seems to be limited, so it is worth considering to use more propane for heat / cooking as a way to reduce power consumption.
Another possibility that I see van owners use here in the US is to pull a small trailer to hold some of their items and utilities. It might make sense to consider the idea of a small gasoline powered generator - say 3 kW size in the trailer. Turn it on to supplement the charging as needed, and to supply power for the cooking if needed.
Even 30 minutes of generator operation per day could reduce your battery requirements substantially and dramatically enhance your time away from the grid. You could also potentially use electric heating and hot water with modest generator operation located in a two behind trailer.
One of my buddies with a promaster full times in it, but it really only works because it is a 159 WB and he also pulls a trailer. He also stores some items in a storage place. Saves a lot of money on rent and is pretty happy.
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Im working on heating my undercarriage water tanks and circulating the water, both operating from temp relays. I believe the above calcs will be my experience when I boondock for 2-4days at a time in the winter.
Running the diesel heater for 8-12hrs/evening, and the battery heating plate (undercarriage installation) and the to-be installed water heating system will make a big dent in my small 300Ah system. When its cold enough, I turn off one of my coolers. I have a 12v cooler running fulltime for drinks and incidentals but when I boondock I fill up my other cooler with food and throw it in the van.
During the day I have the Starlink and laptop running off a 350W PSW which is much more efficient than running my 3000W Xantrex inverter/charger. The only time I use the Xantrex is either for the Keurig or the microwave - so maybe 5-6minutes a day so other than that the inverter is always off. Maxxair fan doesnt see any voltage in the winter and LED lighting takes up nothing to worry about.
I just recently upgraded to 300Ah. I never thought I would need more than 200Ah. I like to get out in the cold and snow and I no longer want to worry about whether Im going to crack all the fittings or if my batteries located under the van will get too cold. To compensate for all the winter consumers Im adding a Victron BMS current limiter for an additional 80A (to parallel with my Orion30) of idle charging. So for every day of a potential 100Ah draw I could replace that power idling for 1hr, with or without sun for my 325W panel.
This is my case. Your case is obviously different but my philosophy is try to plan for the worse.
The older model Victron BMS unit is negative connection and allows the proprietary M8 cable to act as a jumper (dont have to use the Victron battery). Tested the other night with a 360W power supply and it works. Should work in my van system too then...
atelierminceur
New Member
How did you get to 30w continuous ? Basically idle consumption + "surge" and powering every X minutes for the fridge ?
atelierminceur
New Member
Interesting its actually a good idea maybe to have 2 inverter. One more powerful for the big loads when cooking and a smallish one who idle really low to run the fridge ! Some inverter seems to be idling at like 10w. I would be able to reduce the power consumption a lot maybeeee?
I'm not sure whats the victron BMS limiter is doing ?? how do you compensate anything with it?
