Leaking Electrolyte from Bigbattery Powerblock

[Just John]

I’m new to large lithium based power supplies. I use them to charge and power professional film cameras, lights, and monitors on set as well as chargers etc.
recently I bought a couple of “Power Can” lithium batteries with a claimed 750wh capacity.
the first one I bought worked brilliantly so I ordered a second. These large bright orange cases, quite heavy at about 15kg each.
when it arrived the box looked rough and it had a rather odd strong chemical smell.
once I opened the box the protective plastic bag was wet, and as I pulled the battery out, chemicals ran down my arm onto my hand followed by burning sensation. The fumes at this point were strong causing breathing issues for my young disabled son who was in the room watching Dad.
I quickly moved the battery out of the room.
the company has offered a new replacement and a part refund. The unit probably got bashed about during shipping. The metal case did have a dent.
What surprised me was how toxic the chemicals and fumes were.
no warning of possible leaks is given or what to do in the small manual. I understand this can be dangerous?

Do you have a link where you purchased those?
My google-fu is lacking, can't find them on the big battery site.

Eco-worthy seems to sell them on aliexpress. Apparently I can't get them unless I'm in the UK.

280.7US $ |Eco-worthy Portable Power Station Solar Power Generator 750wh Ac Input Lifepo4 Battery High Efficiency For Outdoor Camping Rv - Storage Batteries - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

And yes, the electrolyte is quite toxic.

 

[Will Prowse]

Holy cow!!! That's a huge leak. That smell must be awful! Yours leaked more than mine. Yikes!

 

[Just John]

Holy cow!!! That's a huge leak. That smell must be awful! Yours leaked more than mine. Yikes!

Yes, that's a lot more than a "small leak", that's more like "we split all the cells wide open" type of problem.

 

[Picasso]

What don't you like about it, insufficient ampacity? I had a nagging doubt about that, it just doesn't look like a whole lot of metal compared to a copper busbar, but maybe it is enough. It does tidy the wires.

It can absorb electrolyte, burn, warp, and fracture. The board design posted in pics here lacks any stiffening support. The negatives far out way the benefits ESPECIALLY in a pack that might see mobile use. https://stormpowercomponents.com/bus-bar/circuit-board-stiffeners/

 

[Just John]

It can absorb electrolyte, burn, warp, and fracture. The board design posted in pics here lacks any stiffening support. The negatives far out way the benefits ESPECIALLY in a pack that might see mobile use. https://stormpowercomponents.com/bus-bar/circuit-board-stiffeners/

From my experience, resin impregnated fiberglass is not very adsorbent.
You are interested in mobile, I'm not.
I think it is an elegant solution both from a manufacturing and service standpoint, you disagree.
Done.

 

[Atomic Ed]

So in the end this was not even a BB product?

 

[Just John]

So in the end this was not even a BB product?

I don't know, it would appear not to be.

 

[solarbot]

It can absorb electrolyte, burn, warp, and fracture. The board design posted in pics here lacks any stiffening support. The negatives far out way the benefits ESPECIALLY in a pack that might see mobile use. https://stormpowercomponents.com/bus-bar/circuit-board-stiffeners/

Until your post, that was about the only part of the design I actually liked. My interest being primarily marine, I am concerned about motion, vibration and shock loading. I wonder what needs to be done for a circuit board to perform satisfactorily as part of the mechanical structure like this, or if it really is just a design dead end.

I think it is an elegant solution both from a manufacturing and service standpoint, you disagree.
Done.

I don't think this one is quite done yet, just a hunch

From what I've seen, there will never ever be a Bigbattery on board my boat, they just haven't been engineered or tested for that environment. And fabricating a large circuit board is well out of the DIY zone, I think, but I would still like to do an armchair analysis. What would you have to do to make that circuit board not the weakest link in a marine battery system?

 

[Chris-Bishop]

Do you have a link where you purchased those?
My google-fu is lacking, can't find them on the big battery site.

Eco-worthy seems to sell them on aliexpress. Apparently I can't get them unless I'm in the UK.

280.7US $ |Eco-worthy Portable Power Station Solar Power Generator 750wh Ac Input Lifepo4 Battery High Efficiency For Outdoor Camping Rv - Storage Batteries - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

And yes, the electrolyte is quite toxic.

Apologies for the delayed response, John. The original order came from
Amazon for $557 or £330 ... The unit comes with a built in inverter, external mains charger, and various solar panel linking cables - also a multi jack for the six 12v outs. The original unit has no issues hence me buying another. One full charge gives me five to six hours of camera's, LED lighting, three high resolution monitors, phone charging etc all without a noisy generator.
Hopefully the replacement will be as good as the original.
I must admit it's a bit scary when things go wrong. In this case poor handling/shipping looks the likely cause.

 

[Just John]

What would you have to do to make that circuit board not the weakest link in a marine battery system?

My experience (dated, but does consist of a few million motherboards, along with additional power supply test sets, MRI circuit boards, etc.) says a circuit board is not designed to handle holding LiFePO4 cells in place. A mechanical strap would be much more cost effective and easy to design. I might be biased towards circuit board approach since I spent 5 years working as a tech in a factory that manufactured (among many others) IBM and Compaq motherboards. I did work half of that time in the test engineering lab designing/programming test sets for the various products. Obviously in the 1980s before they first moved it to Taiwan, then mainland China.

Certainly placing it so 8 cells are supported by it is not a well thought out design, if during shipping the box happened to be placed so it was face down.

That said, current capacity is easy, now worries about it adsorbing anything (circuit boards are routinely washed, de-fluxed, soldered, etc.)
Certainly they do a good job of supporting massive heatsinks, and massive video cards with not a lot of additional reinforcement. Some video card slots are reinforced, but I haven't noticed any additional CPU support other than backplates.

Then you get to the welded busbars are much better, but good luck replacing a cell. Crimping cables takes training and will still have the occasional badly done event, even when mostly automated. Using regular busbars is labor intensive and all that entails with problems.

Circuit boards mean very good and easily made connections for voltage and temperature sensors. It does require precision cell physical specs, but wouldn't be difficult to automate for smaller designs.

 

[Just John]

Apologies for the delayed response, John. The original order came from
Amazon for $557 or £330 ... The unit comes with a built in inverter, external mains charger, and various solar panel linking cables - also a multi jack for the six 12v outs. The original unit has no issues hence me buying another. One full charge gives me five to six hours of camera's, LED lighting, three high resolution monitors, phone charging etc all without a noisy generator.
Hopefully the replacement will be as good as the original.
I must admit it's a bit scary when things go wrong. In this case poor handling/shipping looks the likely cause.

Yes, looked like some pretty beefy support brackets were bent, although they could have been designed that way.
We were just wanting to see if was related to a current issue with Big Battery in the USA that have had leaking cells.

I saw that listing on the Amazon UK web site, it's not a big battery product and appears to contain 60AH cells rather than the 170AH cells we are concerned with. That electrolyte is nasty stuff, keep it outside.

Thanks!

 

[sshibly]

Safety = recall?

 

[solarbot]

Safety = recall?

Recall for sure If this were the auto industry instead of batteries, probably sharp teethed lawyers circling around also. But it isn't the auto industry, it's the wild west.

 

[solarbot]

We were just wanting to see if was related to a current issue with Big Battery in the USA that have had leaking cells.

It's related in the sense that it removes all doubt about whether leaking electrolyte is caustic and dangerous.

 

[Just John]

It's related in the sense that it removes all doubt about whether leaking electrolyte is caustic and dangerous.

Well, I already knew that, I was trying to see if it was the same Lishen 170AH cells.

 

[solarbot]

My experience (dated, but does consist of a few million motherboards, along with additional power supply test sets, MRI circuit boards, etc.) says a circuit board is not designed to handle holding LiFePO4 cells in place. A mechanical strap would be much more cost effective and easy to design. I might be biased towards circuit board approach since I spent 5 years working as a tech in a factory that manufactured (among many others) IBM and Compaq motherboards. I did work half of that time in the test engineering lab designing/programming test sets for the various products. Obviously in the 1980s before they first moved it to Taiwan, then mainland China.

Certainly placing it so 8 cells are supported by it is not a well thought out design, if during shipping the box happened to be placed so it was face down.

That said, current capacity is easy, now worries about it adsorbing anything (circuit boards are routinely washed, de-fluxed, soldered, etc.)
Certainly they do a good job of supporting massive heatsinks, and massive video cards with not a lot of additional reinforcement. Some video card slots are reinforced, but I haven't noticed any additional CPU support other than backplates.

Then you get to the welded busbars are much better, but good luck replacing a cell. Crimping cables takes training and will still have the occasional badly done event, even when mostly automated. Using regular busbars is labor intensive and all that entails with problems.

Circuit boards mean very good and easily made connections for voltage and temperature sensors. It does require precision cell physical specs, but wouldn't be difficult to automate for smaller designs.

I would say you are exceptionally well qualified to comment on the question. What I got from your detailed reply is, mechanical stability is the only real issue and even a beefy circuit board is not enough. So next question: what would be enough, if one insisted on using a circuit board? I recall the photo of stabilizer attached to top of circuit board, I think it was you who posted it, but I can't find it again just now. I was toying with an idea that the studs could be bolted through a non-conducting stabilizer lying on top of the circuit board, but that would seriously reduce the electrical contact.

The circuit board isn't the only worry, there will also be large forces and vibration on the terminals. The cells themselves need to be fixed firmly in place, but still with flexibility for normal expansion under load. How on earth do you do that, with or without a circuit board?

 

[Chris-Bishop]

Yes, looked like some pretty beefy support brackets were bent, although they could have been designed that way.
We were just wanting to see if was related to a current issue with Big Battery in the USA that have had leaking cells.

I saw that listing on the Amazon UK web site, it's not a big battery product and appears to contain 60AH cells rather than the 170AH cells we are concerned with. That electrolyte is nasty stuff, keep it outside.

Thanks!

Hi John
Just had a call from Eco Worthy (strange name) they said this UK version has 100ah cells earlier versions had less - probably 60ah you mentioned.
They were very kind with a cash reduction and a new unit on the way via a different courier this time.

 

[Just John]

Hi John
Just had a call from Eco Worthy (strange name) they said this UK version has 100ah cells earlier versions had less - probably 60ah you mentioned.
They were very kind with a cash reduction and a new unit on the way via a different courier this time.

Wow, sounds like good customer service!

 

[Just John]

I would say you are exceptionally well qualified to comment on the question. What I got from your detailed reply is, mechanical stability is the only real issue and even a beefy circuit board is not enough. So next question: what would be enough, if one insisted on using a circuit board?

Most designs just use a metal bar placed across the top in between the terminals.

 

[Just John]

Safety = recall?

Then you come up with who will pay?
The manufacturer of the faulty cells based in China?