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LifePO4 vs sealed acid battery......LVD

I did a capacity test on my 9 years old Yuasa VRLA AGM 38Ah battery
It lasted 5 hours 08 min at 0.1C (3.8A) and cutoff was set at 12V (which is - unless I'm wrong - equivalent to 50% DOD)
The electronic load I'm using calculated a capacity of 19.41Ah
Is it good? Seems to be exactly half of the 38Ah.......so I'm tempted to say it's excellent for a 9 years old battery !
 

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Observations: You've said that this sump pump battery very rarely gets cycled. As a sump pump backup, when it >does< get run you're probably in danger of having a lot of messy flooding. With that in mind, I'd sure let a lead acid battery discharge down to 20% SOC rather than take it off line at 50% SOC. Sure, that deep discharge will reduce the number of lifetime cycles from, say, 500 to 200, but do you really care? You haven't cycled your present battery even once in its ten year life. And when you need it, a new 100AH FLA battery will cost about $100. Let that battery keep pumping water!

Rural King stores are in Michigan, where you are. I just bought two of their store brand (made by Exide) 31 series FLA battery ("Deep Cycle", 105AH) for about $100 each. It's big and heavy. I suspect it's better than the deep cycle Walmart batteries (with the deceptive 100 hour rate they use for their AH rating). I'm sure the 6V golf cart batteries (that are TRUE deep cycle battteries) would give much better life if cycled daily, but that's not what you are doing. If you go this route, I'd recommend you get a battery with removable caps that you can service/top off as needed.

Browneye's AGM suggestion is also good, IMO.
 
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Do you have a link for the Rural King batteries you purchased?
Yes, here it is: https://www.ruralking.com/catalog/product/view/id/28357
It's nothing special, but I expect they will do the job for me. Rural King seems to be transitioning from "regular" flooded deep cycle batteries to flooded deep cycle batteries without removable caps. I like the old style with caps. They are all flooded (you can rock them and hear the electrolyte), but the ones with the hidden caps under the un-openable plastic are sold as "maintenance free."
 
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I did a capacity test on my 9 years old Yuasa VRLA AGM 38Ah battery
It lasted 5 hours 08 min at 0.1C (3.8A) and cutoff was set at 12V (which is - unless I'm wrong - equivalent to 50% DOD)
The electronic load I'm using calculated a capacity of 19.41Ah
Is it good? Seems to be exactly half of the 38Ah.......so I'm tempted to say it's excellent for a 9 years old battery !
A small point: It's hard to know if your battery was at 50% DOD when you stopped your test. It is true that a "resting" lead acid battery (no significant charge or discharge in many hours) that shows 12.0V is at >about< 50% state of charge. Your battery, however, wasn't resting, it was being actively discharged and this does bring down the voltage artificially (if you came back in an hour or two after you removed the load, the voltage probably would have been higher even without charging). So, the good news is that your battery probably gave all that juice during testing and still wasn't at 50% DoD.
And, it is better than that. The "38 AH" on the label is at a 20 hour discharge rate (assuming they used the industry standard). You did your test at a much higher discharge rate (roughly a 10 hour rate, as it turned out). If you'd discharged it at something closer to 1.9A (1/2 the rate you used), it would have lasted probably closer to 12 hours instead of 5, and your calculated total AH capacity might have been about 22-25AH (or so).

They've held up very well.

On the other hand, they won't last long at all if your sump pump needs to run nearly constantly at the 10A you specified. As described by Peukert's law, lead acid batteries have lower total capacities if they are discharged at a higher rates. In the example below, if we discharge our battery at 11.3 amps, it will last for about 10 hours for a total capacity of about 113 Ah. If we discharge it instead at 65 amps, then "straight line" math would suggest that this 113 AH battery should last 113AH/65A = 1.7 hours, but in real life (see diagram), it lasts just 1 hour and we get only 65 AH from it. If your pump needs 10A and your remaining total capacity of your 9 year old battery is, say, 20AH (and that's to 100% DoD, you don't want to go there), you're discharging at about a 0.5C rate. That might give you about 1 hour to maybe 1.5 hours of run time before the battery is kaput.
Due to the same factors, if you put in a bigger battery (say, 110AH, at the standard tested 20H rate), then when the 10A pump runs you'll be discharging at a C rate of just .09 and you could expect it to run for about 9 hours (again, that would be to a very low level of charge).

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Yes, indeed....I'm learning a lot
Assuming I stick with FLA or SLA AGM batteries, what would be a good charger/maintainer?
Also, isn't it an issue to have regular flooded acid battery in a basement? Would it be safer to continue with SLA/VRLA batteries?
 
FLA’s do off-gas on charge so they need to be vented to outside.
The forgotten advantage for a racing boat.
 
FLA’s do off-gas on charge so they need to be vented to outside.
The forgotten advantage for a racing boat.
Open a window during charging when offgassing is more likely (which will be very infrequent--only after the pump operates a long time which hasn't happened in the last decade)? FWIW, fire codes/etc also require ventilation for SLA/VRLA batteries. So, presumably the room housing the old Yausa's had the same reqmt.
 
Assuming I stick with FLA or SLA AGM batteries, what would be a good charger/maintainer?
I don't have a great answer about optimum charging protocol and equipment for this long-term standby use. I've got the same situation and am grappling with it. I got some informed opinions here, you might find them useful. This is more complete than any thoughts I can offer below: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/a...uently-must-i-charge-to-100.48562/post-617497

Thoughts:
- Good news: Whatever you have done with the existing smaller Yausa seems to have preserved its life fairly well for almost a decade. Slow decline, but that's something you can work with. So, maybe this isn't rocket science.
- Definitely keep any lead acid battery fully charged almost all the time. Also, keeping them cool all year long helps maintain their capacity over the long term. That's one reason why a basement is great for their longevity.
- There seem to be two "camps" in regard to keeping a flooded lead acid battery healthy for long time.
-- Camp 1: It is best to periodically (monthly? Every few months?) discharge the battery to about 80% SOC and then charge it at a high rate (.15 - .20C) then a final absorption charge. This high charge rate is intended to help keep the plates clean of sulfation and stir up the electrolyte. Float charge: Maybe, but maybe not strictly required since the battery will be topped up every month (expected self-discharge in 30 days: Temp dependent, but about 3% at 65F). In your case, if you buy a 110AH battery you'd need to also get a (big but simple) charger (20A).
-- Camp 2: Just leave the battery on float all the time, with periodic equalization charges (high voltage, low amperage). Buy a good smart charger/maintainer to do this (some would recommend NOCO Genius 5, etc).

I suppose either method would work okay.

The bigger question IMO is what to do to keep that pump running long term? Basement flooding from surface drainage can be a risk for many days, floosding from a rising water table can be longer than that. If you've got AC power (and the DC pump is just running because the AC pump is overwhelmed) then you can use an AC battery charger to keep the DC pump going. But if the AC power is off and that DC battery stands between you and an expensive, extremely inconvenient and unhealthy flooded basement, then the run time on that battery may not see you through. You will not be happy, and we know that the electric company can be very inaccurate regarding expected down time. That will mean recharging your some other way.day. Can you count on nearby AC power (friend's house, etc) that you can drive to and plug in charger and battery? Can you charge the 12V battery with your car (sounds easy, but it isn't. This is never optimum and can be dangerous if not done right.) Solar charger? Works great when it works, but the times you're likely to get flooding in Michigan is when it isn't sunny. If you've got a place to safely run it, a small (1500W) inverter generator would be perfect: It would run your AC sump pump, it would allow charging of your battery (so, keep the DC pump working all night when the generator is off), it might be enough to start and run a freezer or fridge, it would power a gas furnace (darn handy if you are having an ice storm), it'll certainly charge your cell phone, flashlights, cordless tools, etc.
 
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I don't have a great answer about optimum charging protocol and equipment for this long-term standby use. I've got the same situation and am grappling with it. I got some informed opinions here, you might find them useful. This is more complete than any thoughts I can offer below: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/a...uently-must-i-charge-to-100.48562/post-617497

Thoughts:
- Good news: Whatever you have done with the existing smaller Yausa seems to have preserved its life fairly well for almost a decade. Slow decline, but that's something you can work with. So, maybe this isn't rocket science.
- Definitely keep any lead acid battery fully charged almost all the time. Also, keeping them cool all year long helps maintain their capacity over the long term. That's one reason why a basement is great for their longevity.
- There seem to be two "camps" in regard to keeping a flooded lead acid battery healthy for long time.
-- Camp 1: It is best to periodically (monthly? Every few months?) discharge the battery to about 80% SOC and then charge it at a high rate (.15 - .20C) then a final absorption charge. This high charge rate is intended to help keep the plates clean of sulfation and stir up the electrolyte. Float charge: Maybe, but maybe not strictly required since the battery will be topped up every month (expected self-discharge in 30 days: Temp dependent, but about 3% at 65F). In your case, if you buy a 110AH battery you'd need to also get a (big but simple) charger (20A).
-- Camp 2: Just leave the battery on float all the time, with periodic equalization charges (high voltage, low amperage). Buy a good smart charger/maintainer to do this (some would recommend NOCO Genius 5, etc).

I suppose either method would work okay.

The bigger question IMO is what to do to keep that pump running long term? Basement flooding from surface drainage can be a risk for many days, floosding from a rising water table can be longer than that. If you've got AC power (and the DC pump is just running because the AC pump is overwhelmed) then you can use an AC battery charger to keep the DC pump going. But if the AC power is off and that DC battery stands between you and an expensive, extremely inconvenient and unhealthy flooded basement, then the run time on that battery may not see you through. You will not be happy, and we know that the electric company can be very inaccurate regarding expected down time. That will mean recharging your some other way.day. Can you count on nearby AC power (friend's house, etc) that you can drive to and plug in charger and battery? Can you charge the 12V battery with your car (sounds easy, but it isn't. This is never optimum and can be dangerous if not done right.) Solar charger? Works great when it works, but the times you're likely to get flooding in Michigan is when it isn't sunny. If you've got a place to safely run it, a small (1500W) inverter generator would be perfect: It would run your AC sump pump, it would allow charging of your battery (so, keep the DC pump working all night when the generator is off), it might be enough to start and run a freezer or fridge, it would power a gas furnace (darn handy if you are having an ice storm), it'll certainly charge your cell phone, flashlights, cordless tools, etc.
I was thinking about the NOCO chargers actually (Genius Gen5x1 or GenPro10x1 for example)
I do have a generator (regular one though, not an inverter generator).....So when I'm here, I'm OK installing it and plugging the pump, charger and other things. The main concern is when I'm out of town (vacation or business trip)
And yes, I thought about a solar panel to keep the battery charged.....i guess it would be the 2nd step?
 
It seems the Mean Well chargers (recommended by Browneye) have good specs....I might get one
And out of curiosity, I'm running another capacity test on my Yuasa battery at 1.9 Amp this time (Yuasa specs says 38Ah at 20 hours rate)
 

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I have a NOCO charger and a booster/jumper for the outbard powered boat. Love their products. ?

FLA doesn’t need to be discharged, but do need to be kept fully charged and monthly equalized. An IOTA charger does this automatically.
 
I was thinking about the NOCO chargers actually (Genius Gen5x1 or GenPro10x1 for example)
One thing about the NOCO 5 (or any other low amperage charger): If you discharge your approx 100AH battery even 50%, it will take over 10 hours to get it full again. If you were cycling this battery a lot, that's not very good for it (sulfation while it is at a low charge state waiting to be brought back up, etc). If a big discharge will be rare then that's not a huge issue. But, if your charger isn't at least 10 amps you won't be able to use the charger (hooked to the battery and the DC sump pump) to keep the DC pump running indefinitely using grid AC (which you might want to do if your AC sump pump fails or it's just getting overwhelmed). So, if the NOCO 10 is within your budget, it might be worthwhile. Or, just find a 10 (up to 20) amp charger somewhere (garage sale, etc) if you don't already have one for your car battery, It would be nice if it was >relatively< smart (3 stage) charger. Use a different intelligent unit to maintain the battery.
I do have a generator (regular one though, not an inverter generator).....So when I'm here, I'm OK installing it and plugging the pump, charger and other things. The main concern is when I'm out of town (vacation or business trip)
Ahh, okay. You're probably in good shape then. A lot of things have to go wrong simultaneously to flood your basement: You out of town AND power goes out AND a lot of rain AND the DC sump pump battery dies before the flooding stops OR the power comes back OR you return from your trip.
 
At 1,9A discharge and 12V cutoff, the battery lasted 13 hours 08 min (calculated capacity: 24Ah)
It's recharging now at 8.6A with my current charger (a relatively cheap one from Amazon)
The Mean Well NPB 240-12 can recharge at 13.5A, and costs $70....I might buy one
 
It needs the accessory dongle to make it 'smart', or get one with the IQ4 logic board built in.


Rock solid chargers though. A 15A is about $120. Perfectly suited for lead batteries - periodic re-boost and equalization. Unfortunately you cnnot turn off those features so they're not well suited for LFP. I had a 45A one in the RV for fifteen years maintaining a GC2 battery bank - just perfect. Very little water use - maybe top up every couple of months. The charge profile is probly a little high for gel or agm, I'd probably opt for the Progressive Dynamics one for those - also smart chargers/converters/power supply.
 
It needs the accessory dongle to make it 'smart', or get one with the IQ4 logic board built in.


Rock solid chargers though. A 15A is about $120. Perfectly suited for lead batteries - periodic re-boost and equalization. Unfortunately you cnnot turn off those features so they're not well suited for LFP. I had a 45A one in the RV for fifteen years maintaining a GC2 battery bank - just perfect. Very little water use - maybe top up every couple of months. The charge profile is probly a little high for gel or agm, I'd probably opt for the Progressive Dynamics one for those - also smart chargers/converters/power supply.
Good to know, but I'm not sure I need the 12V power supply aspect of this converter/charger.....
 
Well, I haven't replaced my batteries yet...Assuming I go with the "bullet proof" solution (2 x GC2 batteries in series), what would be the recommendation for a good charger, to keep them permanently charged?
Also, being in a basement, is it safe to have such flooded lead acid batteries? Is there any precautions to take?
 
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