diy solar

diy solar

Looking for advice on backup configuration for grid, generator and battery without solar at the moment

Growatt 5kw ~ $900ish + 120v transformer .... why why why wouldn't i buy this for the $ ? Less cost, less service, less ??

I think you probably answered this in previous post. Since a big part of your system is to run your sump to protect your finished basement, is the Growatt trustworthy enough? Maybe Growatt has a better reputation, or just long term testing, in non US countries and has been shown to be reliable enough to trust. Also, at the price can I assume that the Growatt is a high frequency inverter and with running a pump, isn't a low frequency a better long term choice?

Seems @wattmatters MPP clone is running well? Any signs of motor startup issues, assuming you are running any types of pump or motors off battery. Wasn't sure from your other posts if you had connected the circuits to run the pool pump yet.
 
Seems @wattmatters MPP clone is running well? Any signs of motor startup issues, assuming you are running any types of pump or motors off battery. Wasn't sure from your other posts if you had connected the circuits to run the pool pump yet.
Well since installing it we haven't had a grid outage, so aside from my initial tests it's hard to say. It's sitting there, the energy monitor says the batteries are charged and ready to go when needed.

As yet I haven't taken the pool pump off-grid (that will happen once I connect a solar PV array) but I did do a test run one day from battery alone and it was fine.

The inverter is supposed to have a "surge" rating of 2x its continuous output rating of 4kW / 5kVA. Whether it really does, well who knows?
The load ratings specs are:
<5-sec 2x (8kW)
>5sec 1.5x (6kW)
~10-sec 1.1x - 1.5x (4.4-6kW)

The pool pump isn't a particularly high draw device on start up. It's one of those efficient multi-speed pumps (Hayward) and seems to go through a soft start routine. After the initial seconds of start up it then winds up to max RPM for 5-min at which is draws ~920W, then drops back to "all day" running mode which draws about 320W (I've pump speed back from 2000 to 1900rpm). This is the power draw of the pump at various RPMs from tests I conducted some months back:

Screen Shot 2021-01-11 at 9.38.14 am.png

Heck of a lot better than the old single speed pump which used to suck about 1200W all day.

What I did notice is when I put the inverter in standby / power saving mode, the pump controller (when pump was off) didn't like it - it would keep flicking between a normal display and an error screen. Not sure what the pump controller error was but my guess is voltage supply out of spec. I can only assume that's because the pump controller's idle consumption is below or right on the threshold for the inverter to supply energy when the inverter is in power saving mode. According to the inverter's manual when in power saving mode the inverter is off when there is no or very little load detected. Problem was resolved by not having it in power saving mode.
 
There seems to be some MPP conversation going on here - hmmmm.
I did go away the other day after the great testimony from our friend down under (@wattmatters) concluding there was an issue for me....

Just looked into it again, and see that for what I'm looking for, US AIO 120v/240v Split phase is just coming on line, but not for couple more months.

See link here for dynamic thread going on: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/mpp-solar-lvx-6048.19099/page-3

@wattmatters: What model may I ask are you using?
 
What I did notice is when I put the inverter in standby / power saving mode, the pump controller (when pump was off) didn't like it
Thank you for bringing an important consideration for myself as I consider my application being primarily an active Sump Backup setup.
While I pass-through AC, I need to be sure if I'm in stand-by mode saving $ that inverter doesn't go to sleep on me when my Sump Pump says FLUSH!

My worst case is Sump Pump flushing about 7 gal's / min, or over 400 gal's/hour! If I have power outage, I'm out of town, and Inverter doesn't wake up, the Swimming Pool Pump will become my next project ! Finished basement finished!

In one of the many recent Inverter reviews I was watching a guy say to be sure to understand and check your settings - he had a case of lights flickering if in stand-by mode, and problem solved once he was out of that mode.

I think this topic could almost as important as all those low temp sensor checks that @Will Prowse does in his BMS shake downs.

Thanks guys !
 
@wattmatters: What model may I ask are you using?
It's a clone branded here as VEVOR, model number PS5KVA. It seems to operate just like some of the MPP models I've seen Will show on videos.

Specs for reference:

Inverter mode:
Rated power: 5kVA / 4kW
DC input: 48VDC, 84A
AC output: 230VAC, 50Hz, 22A, single phase (I'm in Australia hence 230VAC)

AC Charger mode:
AC input: 230VAC, 50Hz, 36A, single phase
DC output: 54VDC, 10-60A (user adjustable)

Solar Charger mode:
Rated current: 50A
System voltage: 48VDC
Min Solar Voltage: 36VDC
Max Solar Voltage (Voc): 105VDC

The low Voc means I'll need to set up my array in a 2s5p configuration.
 
I think you probably answered this in previous post. Since a big part of your system is to run your sump to protect your finished basement, is the Growatt trustworthy enough?
I like the ton of feature in Growatt for the $$, but it's still not AIO (all in one) for me as it's only 240v I believe.
That added to it's designed more for other country use - and I'm trying to catch up on more than one thing.
But, you're right, it's really worth consideration... at that price.
 
One thing I noticed about Growatt @ePowerBank is that you need to look at the North America site as the global site has many many more options that will not work for us. https://www.growatt-america.com

Seems like the SPF 6000T DVM-MPV is the model you would consider. https://www.growatt-america.com/show-42-642.html

Think that may be simpler than the 5kw option you noted earlier.
Growatt 5kw ~ $900ish + 120v transformer

Price is right and is a low frequency unit. https://watts247.com/product/spf-6000t-mpv-dvm/
 
Another option? Appears to be same as the AIMS unit but cheaper. Think @snoobler has recommended this in a few posts.

https://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/6kw-apc-inverter-charge-controller

The entire Sigineer line looks promising. https://www.sigineer.com/product-category/inverter-chargers/48v-inverter-chargers/
Thank you - those both look quite interesting.
The Signeer product has 10% THD - which I think may mean problems. Also, I've heard AIMS is entry level and known for problems.
For the Growatt SPF 5000T - I'm not seeing the THD published, so I'm not sure what to make of it. It does seem like right features for me!

Thanks for the inputs !
 
Thank you - those both look quite interesting.
The Signeer product has 10% THD - which I think may mean problems. Also, I've heard AIMS is entry level and known for problems.
For the Growatt SPF 5000T - I'm not seeing the THD published, so I'm not sure what to make of it. It does seem like right features for me!

Thanks for the inputs !
Not sure where the screenshot for Growatt came from as I don't currently see the rating, but some or all may be THD <3% ?

 
@ePowerBank Thanks for following up on this. Have been thinking about this but no progress so far.

So I have some questions that I have not had answered so far.

Is it possible to have a transfer panel that is only supporting 120v? In searching, seems most or all are 120/240. Can I just make sure that the only circuits I need to power by inverter or generator are off only one leg of the main panel?

At most I only need 4 circuits so far. In looking at my consumption, have charted the following using Emporia VUE and app.

Furnace - 1100 watts per day
Refrigerator - 2400 watts per day
First Floor - 3000 watts per day
Aquariums - 2300 watts per day

The peak watt usage at any given time of all of those appears to be @880 watts. Most of the time will not be using that high a wattage at one time, so figure a 1200w inverter will be fine.

I have no idea if this setup is possible, all depends on if transfer can be 120v only. I'd rather not build up to a split phase inverter yet, maybe in the future.



Maybe this would just be a simpler setup since I need a new inverter anyway.

Your doing what I did 16 Years ago after I got hit by a Hurricane and was without power for one week.
Judging from Your mention of an Aquarium I assume you also have a reef tank?

Anyway I ran down to a store the day before impact and bought a cheapish 6000 Watt 120/240V generator. I hooked it up the morning after the Hurricane had passed using 50ft extension cords and within hours got a knock on the door from an irate neighbor. Ignoring that I kept on going until about 10 hours later the Wife said to me that she would rather use a candle than listen to the racket anymore! Ignoring that I got to about 9PM when a small Lynch mob showed up at my front Gate and demanded that I shut off the generator. At that point I shut her down and only used it for 8 hours per day for the duration of the outage. Just enough to keep the Aquarium and fridge going on minimal life support.

After that incident I did a lot of research and ended up buying a Honda EU3000iS Generator and made an outdoor housing for it that cut down it's small amount of noise even further and also prevented any kind of weather damage with it being outdoors. I wired in a plug inside the Cabinet and plugged in a 750 ma battery tender to the battery, so it is constantly being trickle charged. The first battery lasted 8 years with this setup. I can turn her on at 1am and I cannot even hear it in the house when I am 10ft away.

The second stage of my solution was done the following week when I riped down my Electrical Panel and wired in a Reliance 120V Transfer panel.

This is the one I used, I seperated the C&D TS so I had all of them on 120V:

I also removed the Key start from the generator and made a wiring loom that bought it into the Transfer switch panel and mounted it on that Blank plastic plate on the bottom right. The last trick part was installing a 12V solenoid to pull the choke out when the key was turned and then spring returning it afterwards. For people doing this today they are in luck as a company now makes one that is plug and play, you can even get key Fab kits that remotely start the units if you want to go down that path and spend more $$.
Solenoid Link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123898229619?hash=item1cd8e8f373:g:63wAAOSwjLBdclz3

End result is 16 years and 451 hours of reliable service. During a blackout my wife can just turn the key and then flick the switches and everything is running in the House except for 220V devices like the AC unit and Water heater. I also left off the Microwave. I could have also wired it in but there were conditions when this could trip the Generators breaker. like if the Aquariums chiller tripped in when the Microwave and fridge were running.

The house usually draws between 900 - 1500 watts using the Genny. The gas tank holds a little over 3 gallons of gas and runs for about 12 hours on a full tank. Hondas are super reliable and the power is Inverter power so it's very clean.

Just a couple of months ago a little after her 16th year of service the Generator failed to start for the first time.
After stupidly spending 6 hours tearing it down to the bare motor I realized that it was the Low oil switch that had gotten gunked up and stuck. A quick clean fixed that but I decided with Hurricane season coming again and it was time to get a replacement. Shes a pretty old girl now and while she still looks new and works properly I am not willing to take any chances on getting stranded again after a hurricane. Her running hours are still low but her age is not.

After 6 Hurricanes I have learned a lot:
1) Noise is a big factor. Even if you don't have neighbors close by, a loud generator will drive you crazy.
2) Gas is the most reliable fuel you can find in an emergency. It's not always easy but you can find it and stock up on it.
3) A big generator is often times a liability because even it's minimum fuel consumption can be high. I had several friends with 10KW LPG generators that ran out of fuel a couple of days after the Hurricane and they could not get fuel anywhere.

Hope this helps.
 
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I'm a Sandy survivor - NJ without power for a week.
The 1500W inverter I had managed to keep the fridge and bare essentials (ie IT) working - having to run the car a lot though.
Went through a whole tank of gas in the car in 1 week, sitting in driveway!

Wasn't good for the car battery though - by the end of the storm I had to buy a new one - $96 quite manageable.
Lesson learned is if you're going to plug an inverter into your car for a long blackout be willing to toast your battery.

Regardless, I'm a BIG believer in inverter technology for long term blackouts, for all the reasons as you say - LOL!
Another reason is trying to sleep if garage is open or generator sitting on driveway - unfortunately blackouts bring out worst sometimes...

It's crazy to think about all this and know it may never be used! Really? I grew up in CA where Earthquakes HAPPEN about every 10 years!
Be PREPARED is very natural for me now, sh.... t happens, for any fence sitters out there.
 
Your doing what I did 16 Years ago after I got hit by a Hurricane and was without power for one week.
Judging from Your mention of an Aquarium I assume you also have a reef tank?

Anyway I ran down to a store the day before impact and bought a cheapish 6000 Watt 120/240V generator. I hooked it up the morning after the Hurricane had passed using 50ft extension cords and within hours got a knock on the door from an irate neighbor. Ignoring that I kept on going until about 10 hours later the Wife said to me that she would rather use a candle than listen to the racket anymore! Ignoring that I got to about 9PM when a small Lynch mob showed up at my front Gate and demanded that I shut off the generator. At that point I shut her down and only used it for 8 hours per day for the duration of the outage. Just enough to keep the Aquarium and fridge going on minimal life support.

After that incident I did a lot of research and ended up buying a Honda EU3000iS Generator and made an outdoor housing for it that cut down it's small amount of noise even further and also prevented any kind of weather damage with it being outdoors. I wired in a plug inside the Cabinet and plugged in a 750 ma battery tender to the battery, so it is constantly being trickle charged. The first battery lasted 8 years with this setup. I can turn her on at 1am and I cannot even hear it in the house when I am 10ft away.

The second stage of my solution was done the following week when I riped down my Electrical Panel and wired in a Reliance 120V Transfer panel.

This is the one I used, I seperated the C&D TS so I had all of them on 120V:

I also removed the Key start from the generator and made a wiring loom that bought it into the Transfer switch panel and mounted it on that Blank plastic plate on the bottom right. The last trick part was installing a 12V solenoid to pull the choke out when the key was turned and then spring returning it afterwards. For people doing this today they are in luck as a company now makes one that is plug and play, you can even get key Fab kits that remotely start the units if you want to go down that path and spend more $$.
Solenoid Link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/123898229619?hash=item1cd8e8f373:g:63wAAOSwjLBdclz3

End result is 16 years and 451 hours of reliable service. During a blackout my wife can just turn the key and then flick the switches and everything is running in the House except for 220V devices like the AC unit and Water heater. I also left off the Microwave. I could have also wired it in but there were conditions when this could trip the Generators breaker. like if the Aquariums chiller tripped in when the Microwave and fridge were running.

The house usually draws between 900 - 1500 watts using the Genny. The gas tank holds a little over 3 gallons of gas and runs for about 12 hours on a full tank. Hondas are super reliable and the power is Inverter power so it's very clean.

Just a couple of months ago a little after her 16th year of service the Generator failed to start for the first time.
After stupidly spending 6 hours tearing it down to the bare motor I realized that it was the Low oil switch that had gotten gunked up and stuck. A quick clean fixed that but I decided with Hurricane season coming again and it was time to get a replacement. Shes a pretty old girl now and while she still looks new and works properly I am not willing to take any chances on getting stranded again after a hurricane. Her running hours are still low but her age is not.

After 6 Hurricanes I have learned a lot:
1) Noise is a big factor. Even if you don't have neighbors close by, a loud generator will drive you crazy.
2) Gas is the most reliable fuel you can find in an emergency. It's not always easy but you can find it and stock up on it.
3) A big generator is often times a liability because even it's minimum fuel consumption can be high. I had several friends with 10KW LPG generators that ran out of fuel a couple of days after the Hurricane and they could not get fuel anywhere.

Hope this helps.
Thanks for the write up. The Champion 7000 generator I got was free and brand new but my Lord is it loud. Even if I build a cinderblock generator shed, not sure it would be enough to not make myself and my neighbors crazy. Have always looked at and wanted a Honda, even if just the 2000i.

I am in Maryland so the thought of a hurricane is generally not an issue but no one in Jersey thought Sandy would decimate the coast either so...

And not to be a crazy prepper but also think about the gas pipeline being hacked. When maybe the grid getting hacked next time? Would be nice to have a generator, solar, bicycle to generator head, hamsters on wheels, any possible options that can think of to help out.

My latest stumbling block lately is do I go with FLA or LFP. If this is just a backup, then FLA can sit at full charge for indefinite periods without any issue. If using LFP, they can only sit at @50% or I have to have something constantly charging and discharging. Maybe setup a system that the tanks would always be running off to cycle the LFP and would always have power to those regardless. No worries if I am not at home to switch over to a genny or battery backup.

When pricing golf cart 6V FLA and building a 24V system it doesn't appear that much cheaper as opposed to building a LFP system.
Maybe I am wrong in my calculations but the tanks would require at least 2730w to run daily so would have to double up, or at least get larger AH cells, on an FLA system anyway and then I would have to maintain them and they wouldn't last as long. Assuming I were cycling them all the time instead of just using as an emergency backup.

Minimum to build 24 volt battery pack

FLA
Crown CR220 Battery 220Ah 6v, Flooded $146.00 * 4 = $584

Usable watts after accounting for 50% limit and inverter efficiency
220ah * 6v = 1320w * 4 = 5280w * .50 = 2640 * .85 = 2244w


LFP
280ah LFP 3.65, various aliexpess suppliers for 8 cells = $950
Overkill solar 8s 100a 24v = $140

Usable watts after accounting for 80% limit and inverter efficiency
280ah * 3.65v = 1022w * 8176w * 80% = 6540.8 * .85 = 5560w



Just have planted freshwater tanks so if the power goes out I can just run some air stones in each tank to keep things healthy but still would be nice to just run all equipment.

Pic from Christmas, hence the Santa hat on the tuna.

IMG_6536.JPG
 
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I'm a Sandy survivor - NJ without power for a week.
The 1500W inverter I had managed to keep the fridge and bare essentials (ie IT) working - having to run the car a lot though.
Went through a whole tank of gas in the car in 1 week, sitting in driveway!

Wasn't good for the car battery though - by the end of the storm I had to buy a new one - $96 quite manageable.
Lesson learned is if you're going to plug an inverter into your car for a long blackout be willing to toast your battery.
It wasn't good for the car either. Engines hate idling or being revved up when they are not being driven.
I know what you went through so those things become secondary compared to the immediate problem.
Regardless, I'm a BIG believer in inverter technology for long term blackouts, for all the reasons as you say - LOL!
Another reason is trying to sleep if garage is open or generator sitting on driveway - unfortunately blackouts bring out worst sometimes...
Blackouts do bring out the worst in people. Once you take away peoples basic comfort items they get mighty nasty to deal with. It's certainly not a good time to be showing off your Hybrid solar system when your neighbors are in darkness.

It's crazy to think about all this and know it may never be used! Really? I grew up in CA where Earthquakes HAPPEN about every 10 years!
Be PREPARED is very natural for me now, sh.... t happens, for any fence sitters out there.
It's not Climate Change LOL it's not Climate change..... I think some people really believe that if they say it enough it times it will be true. If your old enough to remember the 1970's and 1980's you know with your own two eyes that something is Horribly wrong with global weather.
 
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bicycle to generator head
Generating power from a bicycle is hard work.

100W is usually doable for most people for a while, very fit cyclists can put out ~300W for about an hour, a Tour de France winner can sustain ~400W for an hour, while they could push 250W for 3-6 hours.

Here's an elite track sprint cyclist trying to toast a slice of bread by sustaining ~700W:

 
You know what they say - history repeats itself.
Pretty soon we're going be back paddle wheels and windmills!

When you stop and think about it, in world history it's only been 100 years since we created this energy dependence.
Now, we can't figure how to live without.... really ? What just happened?

I guess without it we'd be walking to the moon.... or now mars.
 
While my night-time plan for backup power is the inverter, my daytime plan is two of these Inverter Generators.
I figure the 64 db not as loud as an all-out 75/80 db generator, great 2% THD, a LOT less than a Honda, and I can run one or two in parallel.

Only problem I've had them on order since Feb, only $650 ea then.... :sleep:

I've resolved this is not an auto pilot auto start setup... I figure for a power outage who cares - beats the alternative.
I'll be able to run everything in the house expect AC, 220 oven I figure. Just can't go crazy, unless it's at the fire pit.
 
my daytime plan is two of these Inverter Generators.
My outage backup for quite a while was a Yamaha EF3000ISE inverter generator. I have a power inlet connected to a cutover switch in the main circuit board so the generator can provide whole of house backup. We are rural so noise not really an issue but it was nice having a pretty quiet generator all the same when we needed it for overnight running.

I now have an all in one inverter with battery bank, and the genset is now a backup to the backup and can supply power to the all in one inverter to keep batteries topped up if the outage is long.
 
While my night-time plan for backup power is the inverter, my daytime plan is two of these Inverter Generators.
I figure the 64 db not as loud as an all-out 75/80 db generator, great 2% THD, a LOT less than a Honda, and I can run one or two in parallel.

Only problem I've had them on order since Feb, only $650 ea then.... :sleep:

I've resolved this is not an auto pilot auto start setup... I figure for a power outage who cares - beats the alternative.
I'll be able to run everything in the house expect AC, 220 oven I figure. Just can't go crazy, unless it's at the fire pit.
Not that I am a Champion fan but these appear to meet your generator specs, assuming you can cancel your current order with Northertool?

 
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