diy solar

diy solar

Mixing Lead and LiFePO4

You need to explain WHY we can't add LiFePO4 in parallel to Lead-acid.

In my opinion, I won't do it, because the SoC curves don't line up with each other. One bank can become a cost on the other bank, and the cost can flip depending at where you're at in SoC curve.

Also, just due to the basic penalty of SLA self-discharge rate, and lower round-trip efficiency, lead batteries are in my rear view mirror. I still would use AGMs as RV chassis starter batteries though and maybe for some simple standalone site, telecomm type applications for the simplicity of not requiring heating in the cold.

If I were to ever consider using a lead chemistry in tandem with an LFP type in parallel, I would only use AGM, since their charge stage profiles are relatively similar (close and compatible). I won't use SLA ever with LFP since their charge stage profiles are way different (that's just me though hehe, however, I love free agency, as long as it doesn't affect others in a negative way)...
 
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Just curious, if you connected The LFP batteries to the L.A. batteries with a high current diode between them, to stop the LA from back feeding into the LFP, what negatives would that introduce?
 
The BBMS doesn't primarily use voltage to disconnect (although it has a max voltage to disconnect for safety). Instead, it runs a counter as part of the BBMS using current, time, voltage, etc. to know what's in the battery. I have it set to disconnect when my lithium is at 95%. My lithium battery is an EG4 which has its own counter and according to it, the battery gets generally to 94% to 99% according to the battery counter when the BBMS disconnects. So the two counters are generally pretty close, and since I can set Clark's BBMS device to cut out anywhere from 50 to 100 percent of the lithium battery capacity, the BBMS has never failed to disconnect the lithium before the EG4 BMS would have. So there are two lines of protection from overcharge, and the first one (Clark's BBMS relays) has never failed, which keeps the battery BMS from being a regular switch rather than a protector.
The BBMS disconnects and connects with a big relay. On reconnect, the lead is dropping and when it equals the lithium voltage they reconnect, so there is never any in-rush current to worry about. The BBMS knows whether the lithium is full or not and so it's not connecting and disconnecting all the time too.
My lead just floats most of the time, but it's there when I need it. Also, the lead allows me to have a wind turbine, and since setting up this combination lead-lithium system the turbine produces a lot more useable energy because the lithium absorbs the current without the voltage spiking problem I had with lead, which caused the turbine to unload all the time. Now I get all the wind energy. The system now fills the EG4 fast, and the lead then goes to float on my Morningstar controllers most days. Feels like I've got twice the panel and turbine capacity.
 
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The BBMS doesn't primarily use voltage to disconnect (although it has a max voltage to disconnect for safety). Instead, it runs a coulomb counter as part of the BBMS. I have it set to disconnect when my lithium is at 95%. My lithium battery is an EG4 which has its own counter and according to it, the battery gets generally to 94% to 99% according to the battery counter when the BBMS disconnects. So the two coulomb counters are generally pretty close, and since I can set Clark's BBMS device to cut out at 50 to 100 percent of the lithium battery capacity, the BBMS has never failed to disconnect the lithium before the EG4 BMS would have. So there are two lines of protection from overcharge, and the first one (Clark's BBMS) has never failed, which keeps the battery BMS from being a regular switch rather than a protector.
The BBMS disconnects and connects with a big relay. On reconnect, the lead is dropping and when it equals the lithium voltage they reconnect, so there is never any in-rush current to worry about. The BBMS knows whether the lithium is full or not and so it's not connecting and disconnecting all the time too.
My lead just floats most of the time, but it's there when I need it. Also, the lead allows me to have a wind turbine, and since setting up this combination lead-lithium system the turbine produces a lot more useable energy because the lithium absorbs the current without the voltage spiking problem I had with lead, which caused the turbine to unload all the time. Now I get all the wind energy. The system now fills the EG4 fast, and the lead then goes to float on my Morningstar controllers most days. Feels like I've got twice the panel and turbine capacity.
My lead is 315Ah at 24v, and only two years old, so I expect it will last a long time this way. Didn't want to dump it, but wanted lithium. Very glad how it turned out.
 
I won't use SLA ever with LFP since their charge stage profiles are way different
Curious if you can expand on this point.

My 48 V system with SLA uses a 3 stage charge profile with two voltages. Constant current with voltage gradually increasing up to bulk/absorption charge voltage of 56.4 V, then holds that constant voltage until current drops to a tail threshold at which point it drops to float at 54.0 V.

For the LiFePO4 batteries I will be adding that's equivalent to 3.525 V/cell for absorption and 3.375 V/cell for float. Those seem entirely reasonable values to me, maybe just a fraction high.

I guess the question is if the lead needs a long time at bulk/absorption voltage to recharge, and the LiFePO4 has already fully charged (since it charges first) then holding the LiFePO4 at the higher voltage for long time isn't so good for them.

In my use case that's going to be a rare occurrence as I expect most of the daily cycling to handled by the LiFePO4 (since it will discharge and charge first), the lead will pretty much just sit there untapped most of the time. The lead will be for ballast and as an extra store of energy should it ever be required for grid outage backup (which is the duty it performs at the moment).

On the rare occasions of a deeper discharge of the lead, then when recharging the batteries I can manually turn off the LiFePO4 once they are up to fully charged.

The BBMS doesn't primarily use voltage to disconnect (although it has a max voltage to disconnect for safety). Instead, it runs a coulomb counter as part of the BBMS.
The BBMS sounds like an interesting extra layer of protection.

Just curious, if you connected The LFP batteries to the L.A. batteries with a high current diode between them, to stop the LA from back feeding into the LFP, what negatives would that introduce?
I'd need a circuit diagram to show where exactly you propose to put such a diode. Because in my mind it would not only block one direction of current flow between batteries but also block either a charge or discharge path for the batteries for a charger or loads respectively.
 
Yeah, the BBMS takes advantage of the benefits of both chemistries. It's not an extra layer of protection so much as a primary manager of the combo chemistries The BMS is still there as the last line of protection. And once set up there is nothing manual about it, it just works. I'd highly recommend it because since using it, it solves the "yeah but what about . . . " problems people imagine happening with the combination of lead and lithium.
 
Curious if you can expand on this point.

Well, based on what I've seen, like on this example chart taken out of a Magnum MS2812 Inverter manual, AGM and LFP are really the only 2 profiles that are to me, the most similar match... Plus, my Magnum is the older one that doesn't have an LFP profile, so I use AGM2 profile for generator charging, since it also basically disables the user from accidentally triggering an Equalization charge (set to same voltage as Absorption)...

EDIT: Well, I actually later just set it to custom and set my own curves, which was basically .1v different on float, per Will prowse Sticky thread on Recommended LFP charge settings.

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So on my motorhome, I still have the original six SLA 6-volt batteries (2s3p) in the house battery bay, and they all charge and stay floated off of 2 roof panels and via a cheap PWM controller. I don't use them for loads, but I do have a Blue Sea Systems manual bridge switch to bridge them into the LFP bank if I want to for some reason. For now I just have a set of long jumper cables off that SLA house battery bank to keep my big diesel box truck starting battery floated, that's its only purpose for now.

So I reserve the option to bridge them on-demand, but normally, I don't want those 2 banks to interact with each other, since I don't have a practical reason to have them together (I have plenty of capacity on the LFP pack), and I don't have any wind generators with any special caveats or anything. Plus it just makes troubleshooting more complicated, I operate on KISS method as well...

Plus, at night time when Sun is down, the SLA bank shows about 12.8v and the LFP bank is usually around 13.3v, so if I left them bridged, the SLA bank would just be sucking off the LFP bank all night to try and keep itself afloat. Why would I want to do that? (the SLA bank can just be patient and wait til morning to get its float again from the Sun)
 
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If you swap out the remote panel, you can add LFP mode. They used to just upgrade them for $50 but I'm not sure they offer that service anymore.
So are you using the BTS with the LFP attached.
 
If you swap out the remote panel, you can add LFP mode. They used to just upgrade them for $50 but I'm not sure they offer that service anymore.
So are you using the BTS with the LFP attached.

No, not in my case (my hardware too old) I actually pinged the Support guy at Magnum, and he told me that in addition to the remote, I would have to change the inverter control board as well, since my control board revision was too low to get the newer firmware that would allow it to work with the new remote (or something like that)... It really doesn't matter anyways, since they have a custom profile, then you don't really need a preset for LFP...


Here was my question to Magnum Support guy:

"
Message:

I just have a quick question. I have a Magnum MS2812 with ME-RC remote. If I wanted LiFePO4 (LFP) lithium battery charging built-in profile, is it enough for me to only upgrade the ME-RC remote to the ME-RC-L, or do I also require to replace the MS2812 with the MS2812-L inverter to make it work?

Can I upgrade firmware in my MS2812 or MC-RC to bring in this support for LFP charging profile?
"


Here was Magnum Support guy's response back to me:


"If you were to update to the ME-RC-L remote, the inverter would need to be a version 6.0 or higher. If the version is not high enough you would only need to replace the control board in the inverter to update the firmware of the inverter."
 
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Well, based on what I've seen, like on this example chart taken out of a Magnum MS2812 Inverter manual, AGM and LFP are really the only 2 profiles that are to me, the most similar match.
Ah, well I prefer to use the specifications of the actual battery being used, not what some charger controller table says it thinks they are.

My SLA batteries have a specific recommended charge voltage profile, with a voltage range recommended for bulk/absorb and for float (and some temperature compensation voltage variance if you have ability to include that).

Hence based on my SLA battery's actual published specifications I have bulk/absorb at 2.35 V/cell (= 56.4 V) and float at 2.25 V/cell (= 54.0 V).

But other SLA batteries may have higher charge voltage specifications. I would refer to the battery's published specifications.

IMO the bulk and float voltages for LFP in that table are a bit high, in particular the bulk charge voltage.
Bulk of 57.6 V = 3.6 V/cell
Float of 54.4 V = 3.4 V/cell

I guess it depends on how quickly you need to get charge into the LFP.
 
Ah, well I prefer to use the specifications of the actual battery being used, not what some charger controller table says it thinks they are.

My SLA batteries have a specific recommended charge voltage profile, with a voltage range recommended for bulk/absorb and for float (and some temperature compensation voltage variance if you have ability to include that).

Hence based on my SLA battery's actual published specifications I have bulk/absorb at 2.35 V/cell (= 56.4 V) and float at 2.25 V/cell (= 54.0 V).

But other SLA batteries may have higher charge voltage specifications. I would refer to the battery's published specifications.

IMO the bulk and float voltages for LFP in that table are a bit high, in particular the bulk charge voltage.
Bulk of 57.6 V = 3.6 V/cell
Float of 54.4 V = 3.4 V/cell

I guess it depends on how quickly you need to get charge into the LFP.

Well, the bulk charge is a CC stage, so the bulk high-end voltage trigger spec, is the point where it will switch to CV absorption stage, so that number can be interpreted a little different... A lot of charts I've seen don't even publish a column for Bulk voltage in the charge profiles.
 
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Well, the bulk charge is a CC stage, so the bulk high-end voltage trigger spec, is the point where it will switch to CV absorption stage, so that number can be interpreted a little different... A lot of charts I've seen don't even publish a column for Bulk voltage in the charge profiles.
The bulk and absorption charge voltage setting are the same thing.

During bulk charge it just represents a voltage ceiling up to which the battery voltage gradually rises towards.
During absorption it just stays at that ceiling voltage, until charge current falls to a low enough level (for long enough) for the charge controller to switch to float.
 
The bulk and absorption charge voltage setting are the same thing.

During bulk charge it just represents a voltage ceiling up to which the battery voltage gradually rises towards.
During absorption it just stays at that ceiling voltage, until charge current falls to a low enough level (for long enough) for the charge controller to switch to float.

Yeah that's basically what I was saying there (in case I didn't articulate it very well)...
 
So are you using the BTS with the LFP attached?

Oh didn't see your other question at first.. No, I am not using the Magnum BTS on the lithium bank (although I do have the original one going to the SLA house bank from before)...

99% of the time I just charge with the two Victron 250|100's, so the generator never even gets run anymore. I ran it one cycle to test out the LFP charging using the Magnum, but it is more of a backup power source...

Besides, lithium doesn't need temperature compensation like lead do. In my Victron charge controllers, when you put it on LFP charge profile, it disables the temperature compensation. LFP profile on the Victron only uses the temperature reading (on my BMV-712), for low-temp cutoff and high-temp cutoff...

I should probably unplug the original BTS off the inverter since it's still attached onto the SLA bank, but while it's charging on the LFP bank hehe...
 
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Yeah, you do not want the BTS connected for LFP since it will shift the voltage and current based on temp.
 
Parallel Wiring Lead and LiFePO4 together on boats violates European ISO standards and according my my electrician (he is on the ABYC) come July it will also violate ABYC E-13 (currently called TE-13).. This will make insurability even harder.

He installed an ARGOFET and Balmar APM after I destroyed my alternator two times when my Battleborn batteries disconnected while charging.
 
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In my opinion, I won't do it, because the SoC curves don't line up with each other. One bank can become a cost on the other bank, and the cost can flip depending at where you're at in SoC curve.

Also, just due to the basic penalty of SLA self-discharge rate, and lower round-trip efficiency, lead batteries are in my rear view mirror. I still would use AGMs as RV chassis starter batteries though and maybe for some simple standalone site, telecomm type applications for the simplicity of not requiring heating in the cold.

If I were to ever consider using a lead chemistry in tandem with an LFP type in parallel, I would only use AGM, since their charge stage profiles are relatively similar (close and compatible). I won't use SLA ever with LFP since their charge stage profiles are way different (that's just me though hehe, however, I love free agency, as long as it doesn't affect others in a negative way)...
Good points. In my case I already had the LA I wanted to keep to preserve my investment in it, increase overall capacity and performance by adding lithium, and as mentioned I have an alternator attached (wind turbine) that I want it to stay connected all of the time to a load (like any alternator).
Regarding the self discharge concerns, the difference between the float voltages is not much at night and the actual nightly self-discharge draw of my lead on my lithium seems quite negligible. in any event, I generally keep loads on at night (inverter, refrigerator, computer, mobile router, intermittent well pump, etc.) so the power going primarily from my lithium feeds those draws and keeps my lead acid from dropping much below 25.6v all night, which is one of the benefits of the combined system, frankly.
To be clear, I don't suggest making full-time parallel connections between lead acid and lithium; rather, based on their differences they can be in parallel most, but not all of the time. and I have found the best way is using the BBMS device that combines and disconnects under the right circumstances using a large relay (I use a bi-stable). Clearly, the banks need to disconnect for significant periods to account for the different charging parameters. When the charging source(s) fills the lithium up, for example, they must disconnect if more power is being provided to the system, otherwise the lithium would overcharge. Because after disconnection there is only LA attached to the system, the charging voltage then naturally rises out of the lithium safe range and the lead goes through its normal daily charging cycle (I have not had to change the charging profile on my Morningstar controllers). The banks should only be reconnected when the charging sources have ceased sufficiently for the banks' voltages to align at the same value so as to prevent inrush (and the combiner has to be smart enough to know, based on how full the lithium is, not to recombine and keep the banks connected even if the voltages are briefly aligned mid-day, for example).
The point is that the BBMS is sort of like a battery combiner (linked to above by CB-OTB), but it is a lot smarter than a device that just combines and disconnects on a set voltage. With the BBMS you program with the actual battery capacity, and it measures current in and out of your lithium so it will only charge to a percentage of that capacity (again, whatever you set it at - If I am going to be away a long time I can set it at 50-60%), and then disconnect. Purely voltage based combiners for lead and lithium risk overcharge of lithium - it can overcharge even at a relatively low voltage if kept there too long. So purely voltage based combiners are not sufficient in my view. And as always, precautions need to be taken with these very powerful batteries, including keeping both banks independently and properly fused.
Your mileage may vary.
 
Good points. In my case I already had the LA I wanted to keep to preserve my investment in it, increase overall capacity and performance by adding lithium, and as mentioned I have an alternator attached (wind turbine) that I want it to stay connected all of the time to a load (like any alternator).
Regarding the self discharge concerns, the difference between the float voltages is not much at night and the actual nightly self-discharge draw of my lead on my lithium seems quite negligible. in any event, I generally keep loads on at night (inverter, refrigerator, computer, mobile router, intermittent well pump, etc.) so the power going primarily from my lithium feeds those draws and keeps my lead acid from dropping much below 25.6v all night, which is one of the benefits of the combined system, frankly.
To be clear, I don't suggest making full-time parallel connections between lead acid and lithium; rather, based on their differences they can be in parallel most, but not all of the time. and I have found the best way is using the BBMS device that combines and disconnects under the right circumstances using a large relay (I use a bi-stable). Clearly, the banks need to disconnect for significant periods to account for the different charging parameters. When the charging source(s) fills the lithium up, for example, they must disconnect if more power is being provided to the system, otherwise the lithium would overcharge. Because after disconnection there is only LA attached to the system, the charging voltage then naturally rises out of the lithium safe range and the lead goes through its normal daily charging cycle (I have not had to change the charging profile on my Morningstar controllers). The banks should only be reconnected when the charging sources have ceased sufficiently for the banks' voltages to align at the same value so as to prevent inrush (and the combiner has to be smart enough to know, based on how full the lithium is, not to recombine and keep the banks connected even if the voltages are briefly aligned mid-day, for example).
The point is that the BBMS is sort of like a battery combiner (linked to above by CB-OTB), but it is a lot smarter than a device that just combines and disconnects on a set voltage. With the BBMS you program with the actual battery capacity, and it measures current in and out of your lithium so it will only charge to a percentage of that capacity (again, whatever you set it at - If I am going to be away a long time I can set it at 50-60%), and then disconnect. Purely voltage based combiners for lead and lithium risk overcharge of lithium - it can overcharge even at a relatively low voltage if kept there too long. So purely voltage based combiners are not sufficient in my view. And as always, precautions need to be taken with these very powerful batteries, including keeping both banks independently and properly fused.
Your mileage may vary.

For now, this is what I am using for my BBMS (uses the Intelligent Control Management System for actuation):

1655131890213.png
 
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