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MRBF fuses - OK for 48V LiFePO4system?

balachai

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Mar 13, 2021
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Hi - I was thinking of using MRBF fuses on my busbar of my 2P16S off-grid system. I'm planning on charging the cells to a maximum of 3.6V for a total of 57.6V, which is just within the fuse's maximum rating of 58V.

HOWEVER, product info also says "The breaking capacity meets the requirements of conventional vehicle batteries and 12V, 24V and 42V electrical networks." Does this mean they shouldn't be used on any 48V nominal systems? Or perhaps there's only an issue with 48V systems that reach higher voltages, e.g. flooded lead-acid with an equalisation charge?

 
Thanks Paul! What fuses would be suitable to protect <100A circuits coming off a 48V nominal busbar? I've already got class T fuses for the battery itself.
 
I haven’t built a 48V battery. You should follow the manufacturer voltage and current ratings since they know a lot more about their products than any of us do (and they have weighed their products’ performance against potential legal liability claims, if it is a reputable brand).

So if it says “42V electrical systems” you should follow that. 42 is less than 48 and they are well aware of 48V systems so you can assume that BlueSea would have listed those if that fuse met the requirements.
 
The interesting thing is, some other fuses specify a maximum voltage of 58V and are OK for 48V systems. Eg some Mega fuses and midi fuses:

I'm wondering if the requirement for MRBF fuses is its 58V maximum voltage, and their literature only avoids mentioning 48V systems because *some* of those exceed 58V.
 
PLEASE - A Warning. Be very careful with fuses, there is a heap load of cheaper knock offs that aren't worth a plugged nickel. Buy ONLY genuine real products from known manufacturers/vendors. Blue Sea MRBF's for example are made by Eaton Corp who now also owns BussMan which are BOTH top Quality companies. I'm unsure if LittleFuse was bought by Eaton in it's latest "shopping spree" but LittleFuse is also extremely good quality. ALLWAYS defer to the Manufacturer specs and ratings for their fuses. BTW: I use MRBF's but I run a 24V System without any issues.

ALWAYS ensure the fuses you are buying are for the correct Voltage (consider the High Side ie: 48V is actually 58.4V [3.65vpc * 16cells] )
Many people often under rate for the "nominal" but should always consider the highest voltage the pack can get/hold/output. The most common example is when people buy Stepdown - Buck Converters, they buy for 48V or 52V but forget that it should handle up to 60V (when charging) so they fry the converter, often quite quickly and with terrible consequences (they often fail and pass through the full voltage). BTDT its spooky and potentially deadly to anything at the lower voltage - 12V device getting 55V = Magic Smoke IF your lucky.

Therefore I implore you to ensure that ANY fuses bought should support the following:
48V System = 58.4V (60V)
24V system = 29.2V (30V)
12V system = 14.6V (15V)

Hope it helps, Good Luck.
Steve
 
Thanks Steve!

consider the High Side ie: 48V is actually 58.4V [3.65vpc * 16cells]
Yes that's what I'm doing. I'll be charging to 3.60 V per cell * 16 cells = 57.6 V. 3.60 is the level to which I top-balanced the cells.

Therefore I implore you to ensure that ANY fuses bought should support the following: 48V System = 58.4V (60V)
Consider the Victron Lynx Distributor which is used in Victron's largest, multi-inverter / multi-battery 48V nominal systems. Victron says "for 48V systems use 58V rated MEGA fuses". These are the Victron-branded fuses I linked above, with current ratings 125A and above. See page 10:

But your 60V criterion would disallow this... something's not adding up.

For a Victron brochure example of a large 48V system using 58V-rated fuses see page 7:
 
The Lynx is an excellent solution as for the fuses those should be fine and the Victron Tech will tell you that too.
 
Great, that's what I thought too. Now, if the Victron 58V Mega fuses are good for 48V systems, what about a Victron 58V Midi fuse in a Victron midi fuse holder? They're described as "58V for 48V products" :)
 
Well, to be honest, it really is quite ridiculous to charge the battery packs to 3.650VPC and those that do are only asking for trouble. In reality, capping the charge to no more than 3.500 will get you the same Ah anyways, as all LFP will settle from 3.65 to 3.5* within an hour after charging. So when you consider that 16*3.500=56V for the pack, you are well inside "the zone".
Note: This is where other chemistries run into major hurdles where you can really make use of "all the juice".

I believe Victron uses BUSSMAN but not certain, in either case, if it comes from Victron you should be able to count on the fuses to do exactly what they should.
 
Well, to be honest, it really is quite ridiculous to charge the battery packs to 3.650VPC and those that do are only asking for trouble. In reality, capping the charge to no more than 3.500 will get you the same Ah anyways
Great, I was planning on charging to 3.60V rather than 3.65V. 3.50 would give even more buffer below the fuse voltage threshold, sounds good, thanks!
 
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I run 24V, I played with various settings and doing some extremely nasty testing (my Thrash Tests) to push battery packs & the bank to it's limits I decided on this SCC profile which is similarly matched for my Samlex EVO Inverter/Charger. ATM I have 2x 175AH & 2x280AH battery packs which I am switching around a bit to 3X 24V/280AH & 1X 24V/350AH for a total of 1190AH/30.4kWh.

These are my setting on the Midnite Classic-200, Multiply X2 for 48V.
Absorb: 28.2 for 15 minutes (Called Boost in some systems ?)
Equalize: OFF
Float 27.9V
MIn Volts: 22.0 Max Volts: 28.7
Rebulk Voltage: 27.7
End Amps: 14A

This get's the bank charged to full with high amps (Constant Current) and then float (Constant Voltage) tops off so the cells are on average between 3.475-3.500. I am running 7/24/365 so float is used up by the Inverter + provides whatever the packs will take to top off.

NOTE THOUGH... I run a QNBBM-8S Active Balancer on each battery pack, which really likes having that little Float because it really helps get the cells levelled up beautifully, they are typically 6-10mv apart regardless of pack.

Link to Deligreen QNBBM Actiive Balancers. (DeliGreen owns QNBBM now)

Hope it helps, Good Luck.
Steve

PS, Download the LFP Voltage Chart from my Signature, the PDF File is higher rez (that's what you download) It will be a handy reference for you as you do your stuff.
 
Hi - I was thinking of using MRBF fuses on my busbar of my 2P16S off-grid system. I'm planning on charging the cells to a maximum of 3.6V for a total of 57.6V, which is just within the fuse's maximum rating of 58V.

HOWEVER, product info also says "The breaking capacity meets the requirements of conventional vehicle batteries and 12V, 24V and 42V electrical networks." Does this mean they shouldn't be used on any 48V nominal systems? Or perhaps there's only an issue with 48V systems that reach higher voltages, e.g. flooded lead-acid with an equalisation charge?


Amperage rating is the first you think of, because it needs to pass the current drawn without nuisance tripping but still protect in case of overload.
Then Voltage, which is being discussed.

Another, unfamiliar to most people who haven't been taught safety of electrical power systems, is "AIC" or Amps Interrupting Capability. Your link says,

"IGNITION PROTECTED – Safe for installation aboard gasoline powered boats. IP66 – Protected against powerful water jets. 10,000 AIC at 14V DC satisfies ABYC requirements for DC Main circuit protection on large battery banks."

AIC refers to its ability to extinguish the arc that forms when fuse blows, vs. just sitting there burning and igniting everything around it. ("ignition protected" for use in explosive environment like bilge of a boat is yet another topic.)

At 12V, not likely to sustain an arc. But at 48V (and higher like PV systems which you aren't considering), it is possible to pull and arc and just continuously dissipate thousands of watts.

Those MRBF fuses are rated to interrupt 10,000A in a 12V system but only 2000A in a 48V system. A car battery (or string of four to make 48V) will put out 3000A. AGM will put out 4000A. I think (but haven't seen published measurements) that LiFePO4 can put out 20,000A.

I wouldn't use MRBF on LiFePO4 except maybe 12V. I would use class T or similar, rated 20,000 AIC.
If multiple such strings of cells I might use a fuse per string.
 
I wouldn't use MRBF on LiFePO4 except maybe 12V. I would use class T or similar, rated 20,000 AIC.
If multiple such strings of cells I might use a fuse per string.
Yep I've got a Class T fuse at the battery positive terminal, and also one mid-string between battery cells. This discussion is about using an MRBF on the busbar to supply a load circuit at say 50A, at a maximum voltage of 57.6V. What do you think for that application?
 
Yep I've got a Class T fuse at the battery positive terminal, and also one mid-string between battery cells. This discussion is about using an MRBF on the busbar to supply a load circuit at say 50A, at a maximum voltage of 57.6V. What do you think for that application?


"Interrupt Rating :10000 AMP @ 14Vdc 5000 AMP @ 32Vdc 2000 AMP @ 58Vdc"

MRBF is rated better than most fuses used for branch circuits.

Wearing the hat of the safety guys from places I worked (where "qualified electrical workers" like me were forbidden to flip a circuit breaker) I'd say the fuses ought to have a cover over them. That way if the fuse splatters you are protected from molten metal.
Ideally, the circuit this fuse protects has 46' of 8 awg wire, which would limit short circuit current at 58V to 2000A.

If there is a short circuit, it will be interrupted by fuses blowing. In the event MRBF goes first and short circuit current is well in excess of 2000A, it could sustain an arc and produce a blast. The class T fuse would blow in its own time and stop current.

What we would like is for highest rated class T to blow first and interrupt current before anything else turns into plasma and forms an arc blast. Class T fuses are known as "current limiting" because, while they don't actually limit current, they open fast enough to protect weaker components from some excessive currents. In a 60 Hz AC system, if a breaker is capable of holding together until a 20,000A fault current is extinguished by zero crossing within one 16 millisecond cycle, having a class T fuse will interrupt a 200,000A fault current fast enough to prevent catastrophic failure.

Unfortunately, that feature doesn't extend down to interrupting a 20,000A fault fast enough for a 2000 AIC component. The fault current let-through chart rises amp for amp toward 20,000A, only diverges and provides extra protection at higher current.

Page 4, a 200A class T fuse interrupting 20,000A would let through the equivalent of 7000A


One forum member made a LiFePO4 golf-cart battery, then accidentally shorted the output. It didn't blow the class T fuse but it did splatter a busbar (apparently due to resistive contact), which was fortunately covered. Metal debris was everywhere and the cell terminal melted off.

So that's why I say have a cover over the fuse.

Looks like class K5 fuses are available from 1A to 200A and have 20kA AIC up to 250 VDC. But would require separate fuseholder unlike MRBF.

 
Wow great insights, thanks Hedges!

What we would like is for highest rated class T to blow first and interrupt current before anything else turns into plasma and forms an arc blast.
That makes sense, but we can't put a Class T fuse on every circuit because of size and cost, and they're not available in low enough amperage ratings.

class K5 fuses are available from 1A to 200A and have 20kA AIC up to 250 VDC.
First I've heard of those - thanks! They're too bulky though - for amperage ratings at or above 60A the holder is 8" long, 1.7" wide and 2.3" high. And it doesn't look like many places sell them. I guess that's why Victron chose Mega fuses within its Distributor instead.

I'd say the fuses ought to have a cover over them.
Good point! A MRBF fuse inside a Victron Lynx Distributor would be concealed by the Distributor's solid cover. But my current plan is to use a Victron Midi fuse outside the distributor in a Victron fuse holder which has a cover. Mega Fuse & Midi Fuse datasheets show Interrupt ratings of 2000A, but those are 32V products, not the Victron 58V ones. https://www.bluesea.com/products/5251/AMI___MIDI_Fuse_-_40_Amp

I guess a 60A Victron Midi fuse sold "For 48V products" is the best I can do for a 48V, 60A load circuit.
 
Wow great insights, thanks Hedges!


That makes sense, but we can't put a Class T fuse on every circuit because of size and cost, and they're not available in low enough amperage ratings.


First I've heard of those - thanks! They're too bulky though - for amperage ratings at or above 60A the holder is 8" long, 1.7" wide and 2.3" high. And it doesn't look like many places sell them. I guess that's why Victron chose Mega fuses within its Distributor instead.


Good point! A MRBF fuse inside a Victron Lynx Distributor would be concealed by the Distributor's solid cover. But my current plan is to use a Victron Midi fuse outside the distributor in a Victron fuse holder which has a cover. Mega Fuse & Midi Fuse datasheets show Interrupt ratings of 2000A, but those are 32V products, not the Victron 58V ones. https://www.bluesea.com/products/5251/AMI___MIDI_Fuse_-_40_Amp

I guess a 60A Victron Midi fuse sold "For 48V products" is the best I can do for a 48V, 60A load circuit.
this fuse won't fit a lynxx will it?
 
this fuse won't fit a lynxx will it?
Unfortunately not - the Lynx Distributor has 8mm bolts on 51mm centres and only handles Mega fuses. I'm resorting to mounting a Midi fuse outside the Lynx. It would have been nice if the Distributor used some kind of insert fuse holder that was swappable to hold different format fuses. Maybe for Victron's next version of the product. :) Edit: or simply release some "58V for 48V products" Mega fuses in amperage ratings to match the Midi ones.
 
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