Need some suggestions

[DerpsyDoodler]

The one where OP specifically said he wanted to stay off grid due to the regulations imposed by the utility company and then the subsequent post (that I replied to) where someone complained about those regulations being "corruption"?

Yeah bud. I got context.

I was explaining why those requirements were put in place. I also posted a link which went into the reason why they changed things. Or did you not bother to read that?

Perhaps you should reread the thread. And the article.

Ok. Last response. Your explanation was nothing more than a long-winded way to try and take a jab at me for your own ineptitude from a previous interaction. Stated in another way: You made my complaint into something it wasn't, to try and bag on me to make yourself feel good.

I've got your number pal. But feel free to continue.

 

[Short_Shot]

Ok. Last response. Your explanation was nothing more than a long-winded way to try and take a jab at me for your own ineptitude from a previous interaction. Stated in another way: You made my complaint into something it wasn't, to try and bag on me to make yourself feel good.

I've got your number pal. But feel free to continue.

You literally called bullshit on my post first.

I wasn't even speaking to you to begin with.

Please feel free to block me. I'll be doing the same for you.

 

[Hedges]

Yeah. At least yall are smart enough to try.

Or maybe it is pragmatism that gets through my thick skull?

Considered for a moment rewiring the system with an auto transformer off one phase to get symmetric split-phase, killing the common mode I was concerned about. If only for a test in our facility. But if that needed 3x the breaker and wire gauge, would require upgrade of power connection. Easier to make my experiment fit within the available wall outlet. Looks like we will rent a UPS for experimentation.

I think the previous units had been running with each module getting two legs of 120/208Y. Now one leg of 230/400Y.
Could consider three auto transformers to drop that 230V L1/N to 115/230 split phase. But if I really want symmetry, the IR drop in windings will give me different voltages on the two legs, depending on current flow. Isolation transformer should be closer to perfect.

Last time I got to specify a lab, I had 30A 120/208Y and several 20A 120V outlets wired.
This time, it has multiple 120V outlets. Three of them along one wall. I can work with that; I put two 120V plugs on a cord with 208/240V socket (and a warning label to disconnect the 208/240V socket before plugging or unplugging the 120V plugs. If I leave that for future lab rats to handle, I'll add a couple relays so it doesn't act like a suicide cord in the event a load is connected. Meanwhile, it gives me facility 208V on the bench.

Balancing load on phases is even more important for forum members with inverters. They have limited power on each phase, not like the grid with an "ensemble" of users each loading one phase at random so it usually balances out.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Wow, I go away for a few hours and ........

As the OP'er, I see both sides of it. I personally have no problems with the electric company being concerned and imposing some "rules". However, IMO they make it more complicated than need be. For example they want a cutoff switch on the pole. Why? By it's nature a grid-tie inverter will shut down without grid power. And they would not let me use the existing breaker that goes to the shed where the equipment is located. They wanted a dedicated cutoff that only whet to the inverter. <sigh> That requirement would have required me to to trench about 100 feet. Of course they wanted lots of $$$ too for their permits etc.. I decided it was just not worth it for the relatively small system I have.

 

[Short_Shot]

Redundancy mostly.

If they know you are grid tied they can/will send someone to the disconnect as needed if they detect power on the lines. That way you don't need to be home for it.

Even if your equipment has proper disconnect, it may fail. If it does and they don't have a disconnect AND someone makes a mistake, then someone dies.

 

[Hedges]

About 18 years ago when I put in grid-tie PV, PG&E required a visible-blade disconnect.
That way, they could absolutely, positively, confirm the inverter was disconnected from grid.
A breaker wouldn't be as positive a disconnect.
(Some brands turned out to have issues with their UL-1741 implementation. I read that one requested to NOT have to correct the deployed ones.)

Later, PG&E let people skip that disconnect, with the warning that if the utility felt so inclined they could yank the meter to ensure disconnect.

For anyone with a hybrid that feeds critical loads panel, any disconnect goes to more than just the inverter. A disconnect on branch to your shed ought to have been sufficient.

 

[Texas-Mark]

If they know you are grid tied they can/will send someone to the disconnect as needed if they detect power on the lines. That way you don't need to be home for it.

Then they can pull the meter or flip the main breaker at the pole and tag it.

 

[Texas-Mark]

A disconnect on branch to your shed ought to have been sufficient.

Yep, you would think.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

no problems with the electric company being concerned and imposing some "rules". However, IMO they make it more complicated than need be. For example they want a cutoff switch on the pole. Why? By it's nature a grid-tie inverter will shut down without grid power. And they would not let me use the existing breaker that goes to the shed where the equipment is located. They wanted a dedicated cutoff that only whet to the inverter. <sigh> That requirement would have required me to to trench about 100 feet. Of course they wanted lots of $$$ too for their permits etc.. I decided it was just not worth it f

Like how “they” decide who can run taxis in NYC or have a food cart in Philly- make a barrier to protect the favored. But they make the rules stating public safety or regulations for the common good.

UL listed- can’t argue against that- I agree w/ hedges

But for the common citizens with $2500 or $5000 worth of solar that eliminates a lot of their monthly bill being squenched out.
But they CAN spend $20K+ of their own money to benefit the power co with a 15-20 break even…

That’s corrupt, and the power co’s or municipality (sometimes the same) wind up with permits and regulations that guarantee the power co benefits to bolster their own monopoly.

I wish I could wuote a local powerco board chair that I heard on the radio a coupla years back. What was said is they (the local municipal power company) can’t afford to pay people for excess power and that net metering would be eating into their profits. So their ‘go green’ published stance is in opposition to their internal economic goals.

But the funny thing is that that’s the business plan of many of these owner-bought or ‘free’ national installers: they are getting paid on the excess watts. But private citizens are prevented from doing so in many places.

That is why I said it was corrupt. At least here, and many other regions country wide
Shot_shorts must have bought a lot of stock in his local powerco maybe?

 

[Short_Shot]

I agree that corruption exists but none of this is making a case for it and it's frankly irrelevant anyways. It's their equipment to set whatever requirements they want.

Redundancies as discussed exist because the power company can't simply blindly trust your equipment.

"They can pull my meter". Sure. What if they can't get to it for some reason? "They can". They don't know that if they haven't been to your property, and they don't know that you won't install a 10 foot fence later on.

"There's a disconnect at the pole so why do they need a different one". There isn't always a disconnect at the pole. The requirement exists to ensure one is installed if necessary and the people on the phone don't typically have a clue what physically exists at your location.


I have no stock in any local utility. I just happen to understand where their regulations come from beyond just crying about how it effects me.

Are some of them redundant? Absolutely. That's the point.

Are some of them stupid in some situations and sometimes that includes yours? Lol yes.

Are some of them seemingly meaningless? Yes. But maybe not for someone else's property.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

I just happen to understand where their regulations come from beyond just crying about how it effects me.

That right there is the problem

You know more than the rest of us who are just crying and have no understanding!

 

[Short_Shot]

That right there is the problem

You know more than the rest of us who are just crying and have no understanding!

Surely you understand that the reasons for most public things are bigger than your needs or wants right?

 

[Short_Shot]

But by all means keep cherry picking the part of the statement that you want to complain about while refusing to address the rest.

Seems perfectly logical to me to assume that everyone is out to get you.

Requiring expensive hardware and installations on grid tied systems isn't a means to limit it to wealthy people. It's designed to prevent poor people from halfassing things and killing or injuring someone because they don't want to pay for the safe stuff.

"Well I personally know better therefore I can do it safely!"

They don't know that, they don't care even if it's true, and they can't guarantee safety based on your reassuring claims that you're qualified.

They're following rules that exist for the lowest common denominator. If that's you or not is utterly irrelevant.

 

[Texas-Mark]

"They can pull my meter". Sure. What if they can't get to it for some reason? "They can". They don't know that if they haven't been to your property, and they don't know that you won't install a 10 foot fence later on.

"There's a disconnect at the pole so why do they need a different one". There isn't always a disconnect at the pole. The requirement exists to ensure one is installed if necessary and the people on the phone don't typically have a clue what physically exists at your location.

If they can't get to the meter, then they also can't get to the disconnect that they want by the meter.

I live rural (as do 99% of the people here). Everyone has a main disconnect on the pole where the meter is.

They also know exactly what everyone has now, because when they put in the smart meter they took a picture. of the meter/pole.

 

[Short_Shot]

If they can't get to the meter, then they also can't get to the disconnect that they want by the meter.

I live rural (as do 99% of the people here). Everyone has a main disconnect on the pole where the meter is.

They also know exactly what everyone has now, because when they put in the smart meter they took a picture. of the meter/pole.

And I'm guessing the person on the phone is a dingus who is just following the procedure they have on their computer screen that applies regardless of whether it's rural or not.

 

[12VoltInstalls]

Took the bait, then goes off on stuff nobody said.

 

[Texas-Mark]

So I think I have come up with the best compromise. The issue I have when the batteries get low, is my separate low voltage shutoff for the inverter kicks in like it should. But because the pump load is removed, the batteries tend to bounce back enough (especially if there is a bit of sun) above the restart threshold (it's not adjustable) and the inverter will turn back on. Then when back under load, it does not take long to shut down again, and the on/off cycle continues (like every few minutes).

So my solution to that, is this;
I have that time delay relay that is powered by the inverter that flips the transfer switch. I currently have a 5 second delay to let the inverter stabilize before switching. So I have extended that delay to one hour. I also moved the master timer back one hour in the morning. So instead of the timer turning on at lets say 5am, it turns on at 4am. But with the 1 hour delay for the transfer switch, the pump still does not switch to inverter power until 5am. Now, in the case of a low voltage cutoff during cloudy days, that time delay relay is reset and the transfer switch will not switch again for an hour after the restart threshold is met. This will minimize the on/off cycling. If need be I can up the delay to 2, 3, or more hours, and just move the main timer back the same number of hours in the mornings.

Hope that made sense.
.

 

[Court238]

New member here, but not new to solar power. let me give a brief description of what I have and what I need some suggestions on. This is a little long, so please bear with me.

I live in rural TX and had a DYI grid-tie system for about 15 years. This is made up of 15 100w panels. I also have a battery bank consisting of 5 deep cycle batteries and a 1500w pure sine wave inverter. Note: Everything is 12V. This was set up to power the grid-ties inverters all of the time, but if need be, I could switch the panels to charge the battery bank and use the sine wave inverter. Mainly I just wanted to offset running my pool pump 24/7. This worked well for about 14 years. At the time I set it up, the electric company knew I had it and did not care. Going the grid-tie route was ideal because i was able to utilize all the power generated. it required zero intervention.

Then about a couple of years ago, the electric company got involved with selling their own solar power systems. Well, at least sub-contracting it. All would have probably been fine, but one day due to a fluke of perfect conditions, I produced more than I was using. Due to the smart meters, the electric company saw it and called me and said I now had to have everything approved by them. I looked over all of the paperwork and requirements and decided it was not worth the hassle or cost to rebuild what was working fine for 14 years. So I ditched the grid-tie portion.

So now, I run the pool pump off of the sine wave inverter and use the panels to keep the batteries charged up. This causes some issues. As I had it originally, the pool pump would switch to the inverter at about 3:00am. This of course discharges the batteries. Then when the sun comes up, the batteries start to recharge and the panels also will power the pump. The pool pump switches back to grid power at 1:00pm. This gives the panels enough time to finish topping off the batteries and I am ready for the next day. There is still some wasted power generation toward the end of the afternoon, but that is because the batteries are nearly charged and the charge tapers off.

Now the problem is that my scenario above relies on cloudless days every day. Of course that never happens so I had to adjust my timing of things. I have the pool pump switch to the inverter at 7:30am. This way the batteries are not discharged too much and if it is cloudy, they may not fully charge by the end of the day. Now, if there are a lot of consecutive cloudy days, the inverter will shut down when the batteries get too depleted (and the pump auto switches back to the grid). Note: I do not rely on the inverter's low voltage shutoff, but instead have my own device that I have set for 70% discharge (to prolong battery life).

Anyway, my issue which should be obvious is I am wasting a lot of potential energy when the sun is out every day. Anyone else have a similar situation? Any suggestions to utilize more of the power when it is available? I have my system fully automated and would like to keep it that way. I don't want to have to go flipping switches or whatever every time it gets cloudy. Should I just let the pump run longer so the panels will always be charging them even if it could potentially bee a week or more before they get fully charged?

Hi! Do you mind sharing your setup? I have a dc solar pump and like you mentioned it shuts off around 1-2pm. What do I need to do im order to have it setup with a solar charged battery backup so it can run at night? Sorry, this is all new to me.

 

[Texas-Mark]

Hi! Do you mind sharing your setup? I have a dc solar pump and like you mentioned it shuts off around 1-2pm. What do I need to do im order to have it setup with a solar charged battery backup so it can run at night? Sorry, this is all new to me.

I think my system is a bit over-complicated for your needs. Basically I want my pump to run 24/7. but my solar is not enough for that.

My pump is AC. I have a standard 120V timer that turns on at 9pm. That in turns energizes a 120V time delay relay set for 6 hours (more on that later). When that energizes, it turns on my inverter. When the inverter turns on, it operates a 120V transfer switch that switches the pump from the grid to the inverter. At 3pm the 120V timer turns off. This turns off the inverter and causes the transfer switch to go back to the grid.

I have a low voltage battery sensor's relay in line with the relay output that turns on the inverter. If I run into low voltage on the battery bank (I have it set for 12.3V), it turns off that first 6 hour time delay relay (resetting it). So now, even if the battery bank charges back up a bit, it won't switch on again for 6 hours. This prevents on/off cycling of the inverter as soon as the battery voltage comes up a bit and gives the batteries a chance to charge more. This is especially useful when it is cloudy for days. .

 

[Court238]

I think my system is a bit over-complicated for your needs. Basically I want my pump to run 24/7. but my solar is not enough for that.

My pump is AC. I have a standard 120V timer that turns on at 9pm. That in turns energizes a 120V time delay relay set for 6 hours (more on that later). When that energizes, it turns on my inverter. When the inverter turns on, it operates a 120V transfer switch that switches the pump from the grid to the inverter. At 3pm the 120V timer turns off. This turns off the inverter and causes the transfer switch to go back to the grid.

I have a low voltage battery sensor in line with the relay output that turns on the inverter. If I run into low voltage on the battery bank (I have it set for 12.3V), it turns off that first 6 hour time delay relay (resetting it). So now, even if the battery bank charges back up a bit, it won't switch again for 6 hours. This prevents on/off cycling of the inverter as soon as the battery voltage comes up a bit and gives the batteries a chance to charge more. This is especially useful when it is cloudy for days. .

Interesting, thanks for your response.